Signing Suggestions & Rumours THREAD..

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jirskyr
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Re: Signing Suggestions & Rumours THREAD..

Post by jirskyr » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:22 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 1:19 pm
I think it can be argued because what it boils down to is one persons opinion on another players worth.
We all have the right to try and get the best deal we can for ourselves
Succinctly put, yes I agree.

Current system allows players to try and get the best deal they can negotiate, based only on their own skill. A points system would place boundaries on what a player could earn, based on a central body's opinion and algorithm.

I.e. how could you negotiate for the better salary if the NRL told everyone you were a 3/10? People would challenge the ratings system: "Your Honour, I am at least a 4!!!"


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Post by cochise » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:37 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:22 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 1:19 pm
I think it can be argued because what it boils down to is one persons opinion on another players worth.
We all have the right to try and get the best deal we can for ourselves
Succinctly put, yes I agree.

Current system allows players to try and get the best deal they can negotiate, based only on their own skill. A points system would place boundaries on what a player could earn, based on a central body's opinion and algorithm.

I.e. how could you negotiate for the better salary if the NRL told everyone you were a 3/10? People would challenge the ratings system: "Your Honour, I am at least a 4!!!"
It doesn't stop a player from negotiating the best deal they can, in fact it could be argued that because it is a nominal cap and not a financial cap that players can negotiate a better deal with a greater level of ease.

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Post by jirskyr » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:49 pm

cochise wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:37 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:22 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 1:19 pm
I think it can be argued because what it boils down to is one persons opinion on another players worth.
We all have the right to try and get the best deal we can for ourselves
Succinctly put, yes I agree.

Current system allows players to try and get the best deal they can negotiate, based only on their own skill. A points system would place boundaries on what a player could earn, based on a central body's opinion and algorithm.

I.e. how could you negotiate for the better salary if the NRL told everyone you were a 3/10? People would challenge the ratings system: "Your Honour, I am at least a 4!!!"
It doesn't stop a player from negotiating the best deal they can, in fact it could be argued that because it is a nominal cap and not a financial cap that players can negotiate a better deal with a greater level of ease.
I don't agree but we'll just have to leave it there, you won't convince me and I won't convince you. I personally think there's a reason most prof sports have salary caps but no centrally-mandated points system. Not aware of any professional sport in the whole world with a points cap, but would be pleased to hear and read about it if one exists?

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Post by cochise » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 9:41 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:49 pm
cochise wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:37 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:22 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 1:19 pm
I think it can be argued because what it boils down to is one persons opinion on another players worth.
We all have the right to try and get the best deal we can for ourselves
Succinctly put, yes I agree.

Current system allows players to try and get the best deal they can negotiate, based only on their own skill. A points system would place boundaries on what a player could earn, based on a central body's opinion and algorithm.

I.e. how could you negotiate for the better salary if the NRL told everyone you were a 3/10? People would challenge the ratings system: "Your Honour, I am at least a 4!!!"
It doesn't stop a player from negotiating the best deal they can, in fact it could be argued that because it is a nominal cap and not a financial cap that players can negotiate a better deal with a greater level of ease.
I don't agree but we'll just have to leave it there, you won't convince me and I won't convince you. I personally think there's a reason most prof sports have salary caps but no centrally-mandated points system. Not aware of any professional sport in the whole world with a points cap, but would be pleased to hear and read about it if one exists?
Why do you feel that it doesn't allow players to negotiate the best deal for themselves? not arguing just interested in your point of view. I feel that as there is no limit on what you can pay a player graded at a 5 for example that it will drive wages higher.

I'm actually not a fan of a nominal system as I do not believe that it creates an equal spread of talent as the richer clubs will get the elite players as there is not enough of those players to go around. Also there is no way a player like Ponga signs with the knights under a nominal system as the knights paid him on potential and under a nominal system the Cowboys could match that offer as he would have had a low nominal and not stretched their nominal cap.

I don't know of any competition that uses a points based system but interestingly the NFL set standard wages for rookie players based on the round they were drafted which I find interesting.

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Post by Needaname » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 10:53 pm

Pawsandclaws wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 3:47 pm
Apparently Mapesone and Jesse Jackson are now with the Sea Eagles.

We have picked up winger/centre Lucas Price from the Sea Eagles who is tall and a good runner of the ball.
Did I see Daniel Peck in Newcastles extended squad list, possibly still flegg wasn't sure?


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Post by happy tiger » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 10:58 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 8:22 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 1:19 pm
I think it can be argued because what it boils down to is one persons opinion on another players worth.
We all have the right to try and get the best deal we can for ourselves
Succinctly put, yes I agree.

Current system allows players to try and get the best deal they can negotiate, based only on their own skill. A points system would place boundaries on what a player could earn, based on a central body's opinion and algorithm.

I.e. how could you negotiate for the better salary if the NRL told everyone you were a 3/10? People would challenge the ratings system: "Your Honour, I am at least a 4!!!"
Some clubs are putting marquee prices on non marquee players

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Post by Needaname » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 11:07 pm

The solution is a market determined nominal value for off contract players. The clubs bidding for the off contract have a blind auction of sorts throwing their bids into a bucket.
The nominal value is determined based on the mean amount of those offers.
The player chosen where he wants to go but the club can not purchase that player for less his mean value.

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Post by Needaname » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 11:11 pm

And sorry, the mean or determined nominal value is the minimum cap amount included for that player.

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Post by formerguest » Wed 21 Feb, 2018 11:23 pm

old man tiger wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 6:55 pm
Geo. wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 5:56 pm
old man tiger wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 5:44 pm
old man tiger wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 5:41 pm


This or the Lote Tuqiri thread.cant remember but that was loooooong.
Just looks it up it was only 100 and something pages
This is the longest I remember, been on all the forums since 2004
This is the longest Rugby League related thread that is not an individual......

As for an individual player that honour belongs to Robbie Farah ...that puppy went for well over 300 pages..

Honourable mentions recently Tedesco and Woods...

The largest of all had they been merged over the years would have been SACK THE COACH..Sheens and Taylor 60/40 split..
Stryker is right.
I'm getting old.

How could I forget Farah's thread?
You're okay, he can't even remember his username.

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Post by colmcd » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 9:22 am

Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 12:06 pm
TigerSkins wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 9:32 am
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 9:00 am
Bob wrote:
Tue 20 Feb, 2018 10:08 pm
I don’t have a problem with successful clubs being successful. I take issue with some clubs flaunting the rules and not others.

Have a salary cap that each team must stick to that is covered by the NRL.

Have unlimited TPA’s a player can receive regardless of who organises it.

Each player must be paid a minimum out of the cap that co incides with their resume.

The part I hate is that clubs flaunt the rules without being reprimanded some stick to the rules and others get penalised.. why?

I am sure there is no limit to TPA’s that could be organised for good players.
I mentioned this a week or so ago, but I doubt many clubs are breaking the rules.

There will be clubs who follow the rules as outlined, and there will be clubs who do things that dont break the rules.

Two seperate approaches with both being right.

The catalyst is money. Some clubs have access to more money from external factors than others. If Michael Morgan gets a house built for him because he is a great bloke, and the builder has no affiliations to the club, what can the NRL do?
Most of the Cows players have had a house given ... oops I meant built for them cause they great blokes .. !! It happens on the Gold Coast as well .. a certain player up there, "next in line to be a King" had a house built for him cause he was a great bloke .. it was a magnificent house .. but at the end of his career he sold up and got over a handy 3.5 mil for the house he lived in for 2 years ..!! So the question here is are these houses part of their salary or TPA's or are they just freebies .. ??
untraceable freebies... 'Developer Stock' is a common term used when a developer inherits X amount of units in a complex which are not for sale to the general public. A developer may hang onto his 'stock' for 10 years before selling it off for
$1 to a 'good friend', notably a player who has already finished his career. Even if the NRL did audit players bank accounts etc, they would never be allowed to do it after he no longer has an NRL Contract.

The smart clubs who have access to more money externally will always be ahead of those who dont.
You could penalize the club who has a house built for a mate. But that won't happen. Yes they would find a way around that and we would get into more shady dealings. Was it Adrian Mortley who the Storm were paying 80K for 3 years to be Fire and Safety inspector? Remember we want these blokes to have a job after footy too.

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Post by jirskyr » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:05 pm

cochise wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 9:41 pm
Why do you feel that it doesn't allow players to negotiate the best deal for themselves? not arguing just interested in your point of view. I feel that as there is no limit on what you can pay a player graded at a 5 for example that it will drive wages higher.

I'm actually not a fan of a nominal system as I do not believe that it creates an equal spread of talent as the richer clubs will get the elite players as there is not enough of those players to go around. Also there is no way a player like Ponga signs with the knights under a nominal system as the knights paid him on potential and under a nominal system the Cowboys could match that offer as he would have had a low nominal and not stretched their nominal cap.

I don't know of any competition that uses a points based system but interestingly the NFL set standard wages for rookie players based on the round they were drafted which I find interesting.
The primary flaw for a points system, as I see it, is that points can only be applied prospectively for 1 season, based on recent history. You couldn't really be giving a player a points rating for Season 2019 before Season 2018 has even kicked off.

So clubs would be negotiating with players based on single-season ratings, and I expect it would drive a strong demand for short-term contracts, because clubs could not afford to overspend (with points) on players who fluctuated over the duration of a longer contract. Short term contracts are potentially detrimental to player earning capacity, because there is no security. There would be annual revisions to cost-effectiveness (salary vs player rating vs actual performance) and as far as I can predict, it would end up like fantasy football, where players are traded back and forward and all values reset every season.

Take your example Ponga. Assume clubs would leave themselves a little breathing space in the points cap for future changes in player ratings. You could not leave too much space because it would mean a relatively poorer roster, so there would be some target point where you maximised total roster rating but allowed for some players to improve during the duration of their contract. Or, ideally, you had only single-season contracts so you could shuffle people around as soon as their ratings changed and became inconvenient to your cap.

So Ponga comes to grade and NRL says they think he is worth 3, because he's a kid. Cowboys have space for a 3 and happily pay him whatever. Happy days for the kid, at least for that first season where people think he can perform better than 3. But everyone agrees Ponga is probably going to become a 6 or 7 officially in a year or two, and Cowboys know they don't have that kind of space long-term due to already high-value players like Thurston and Taumololo. So they contract Ponga short and reassess the next season.

Knights on the other hand, they have less money overall to spend but have 10 points space in their cap, because their roster isn't as strong overall. So Knights are trying to make up the points cap with lower-value players, this either means more players at lower points, or just generally speaking the lower-earning players of equivalent points value. Because I agree with you, clubs like Broncos, Roosters etc., if salary is uncapped, would always be able to afford the "Best 10s", "Best 9s", "Best 8s" etc. They couldn't hoard all the talent due to the points cap, but they'd outbid every poor club in negotiations for equal-points players.

But that financial domination being put aside for the moment, Ponga's earnings in 2019 would be directly influenced by his rating. If he was rated low but his output was better, it would likely drive up his salary for a short period. Conversely, if he was rated high but output was low, it would drive down his demand/salary, all over the course of individual seasons. I cannot predict exactly where the economy would settle, it may be the odd elite player plus a load of middle-tier players is the best way to spend a points cap, but it would mean that the points cap has some significant influence on a player's earnings over their career, and I believe quite firmly that would end up in a seasonal ebb and flow, such that if you did not perform at your best (or got injured) year after year, you would be in jeopardy of being discarded by your current club due to lack of output for the points the club spent on you.

Ultimately my guess is players would end up with short-term contracts, quite volatile, with values more or less tied to the central authority ratings system. You might earn top dollar over short term, but any gap between your rating and your actual performance would have real-world consequences.

That isn't how the system currently works. Whilst we have a salary cap, clubs can built their caps over multiple seasons and can have guarantees on what they are spending over time. Clearly clubs get this wrong all the time, but at least players can play well, negotiate a contract and then hold the club to that contract for X years. Under a points system, the NRL would interfere, they'd tell clubs what someone was worth and drive a new type of economy where apparent values had influence.

And you are right, as I said, that even ignores the potentially very negative influence of letting rich clubs outspend the others in all negotiations for same-value players. We would end up with some kind of salary system tied to player ratings, so you couldn't truly go out and negotiate your best salary with your employer, because the NRL would be involved as a 3rd-party, telling clubs where they can and cannot spend their points.

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Post by Nelson » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:11 pm

This has been going on for pages and pages, maybe go start a boring pie in the sky salary cap points system thread that the rest of us can avoid like the plague...

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Post by TopTiger » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:13 pm

Nelson wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:11 pm
This has been going on for pages and pages, maybe go start a boring pie in the sky salary cap points system thread that the rest of us can avoid like the plague...
X2 :bash

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Post by cochise » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:15 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:05 pm
cochise wrote:
Wed 21 Feb, 2018 9:41 pm
Why do you feel that it doesn't allow players to negotiate the best deal for themselves? not arguing just interested in your point of view. I feel that as there is no limit on what you can pay a player graded at a 5 for example that it will drive wages higher.

I'm actually not a fan of a nominal system as I do not believe that it creates an equal spread of talent as the richer clubs will get the elite players as there is not enough of those players to go around. Also there is no way a player like Ponga signs with the knights under a nominal system as the knights paid him on potential and under a nominal system the Cowboys could match that offer as he would have had a low nominal and not stretched their nominal cap.

I don't know of any competition that uses a points based system but interestingly the NFL set standard wages for rookie players based on the round they were drafted which I find interesting.
The primary flaw for a points system, as I see it, is that points can only be applied prospectively for 1 season, based on recent history. You couldn't really be giving a player a points rating for Season 2019 before Season 2018 has even kicked off.

So clubs would be negotiating with players based on single-season ratings, and I expect it would drive a strong demand for short-term contracts, because clubs could not afford to overspend (with points) on players who fluctuated over the duration of a longer contract. Short term contracts are potentially detrimental to player earning capacity, because there is no security. There would be annual revisions to cost-effectiveness (salary vs player rating vs actual performance) and as far as I can predict, it would end up like fantasy football, where players are traded back and forward and all values reset every season.

Take your example Ponga. Assume clubs would leave themselves a little breathing space in the points cap for future changes in player ratings. You could not leave too much space because it would mean a relatively poorer roster, so there would be some target point where you maximised total roster rating but allowed for some players to improve during the duration of their contract. Or, ideally, you had only single-season contracts so you could shuffle people around as soon as their ratings changed and became inconvenient to your cap.

So Ponga comes to grade and NRL says they think he is worth 3, because he's a kid. Cowboys have space for a 3 and happily pay him whatever. Happy days for the kid, at least for that first season where people think he can perform better than 3. But everyone agrees Ponga is probably going to become a 6 or 7 officially in a year or two, and Cowboys know they don't have that kind of space long-term due to already high-value players like Thurston and Taumololo. So they contract Ponga short and reassess the next season.

Knights on the other hand, they have less money overall to spend but have 10 points space in their cap, because their roster isn't as strong overall. So Knights are trying to make up the points cap with lower-value players, this either means more players at lower points, or just generally speaking the lower-earning players of equivalent points value. Because I agree with you, clubs like Broncos, Roosters etc., if salary is uncapped, would always be able to afford the "Best 10s", "Best 9s", "Best 8s" etc. They couldn't hoard all the talent due to the points cap, but they'd outbid every poor club in negotiations for equal-points players.

But that financial domination being put aside for the moment, Ponga's earnings in 2019 would be directly influenced by his rating. If he was rated low but his output was better, it would likely drive up his salary for a short period. Conversely, if he was rated high but output was low, it would drive down his demand/salary, all over the course of individual seasons. I cannot predict exactly where the economy would settle, it may be the odd elite player plus a load of middle-tier players is the best way to spend a points cap, but it would mean that the points cap has some significant influence on a player's earnings over their career, and I believe quite firmly that would end up in a seasonal ebb and flow, such that if you did not perform at your best (or got injured) year after year, you would be in jeopardy of being discarded by your current club due to lack of output for the points the club spent on you.

Ultimately my guess is players would end up with short-term contracts, quite volatile, with values more or less tied to the central authority ratings system. You might earn top dollar over short term, but any gap between your rating and your actual performance would have real-world consequences.

That isn't how the system currently works. Whilst we have a salary cap, clubs can built their caps over multiple seasons and can have guarantees on what they are spending over time. Clearly clubs get this wrong all the time, but at least players can play well, negotiate a contract and then hold the club to that contract for X years. Under a points system, the NRL would interfere, they'd tell clubs what someone was worth and drive a new type of economy where apparent values had influence.

And you are right, as I said, that even ignores the potentially very negative influence of letting rich clubs outspend the others in all negotiations for same-value players. We would end up with some kind of salary system tied to player ratings, so you couldn't truly go out and negotiate your best salary with your employer, because the NRL would be involved as a 3rd-party, telling clubs where they can and cannot spend their points.
See I actually agree with all that you saying, only part I don't agree with is that it would stop players negotiating a better deal for themselves, sure it will be limited by their ability but it already is.

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Post by jrtiger » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 3:05 pm

Any news on RTS?

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Post by Russell » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 3:17 pm

jrtiger wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 3:05 pm
Any news on RTS?
Yep, according to 851 he is the reserve for reserve grade.

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Post by momo&medo » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 4:53 pm

TopTiger wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:13 pm
Nelson wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:11 pm
This has been going on for pages and pages, maybe go start a boring pie in the sky salary cap points system thread that the rest of us can avoid like the plague...
X2 :bash
X30000 Boooooring

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Post by stevied » Thu 22 Feb, 2018 8:37 pm

momo&medo wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 4:53 pm
TopTiger wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:13 pm
Nelson wrote:
Thu 22 Feb, 2018 1:11 pm
This has been going on for pages and pages, maybe go start a boring pie in the sky salary cap points system thread that the rest of us can avoid like the plague...
X2 :bash
X30000 Boooooring
Agreed. This is meant to be a discussion on prospective Tigers signings, not a debate on alternative salary cap measures.

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