Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

TonyTiger
Member
Member
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 12:41 pm

Re: Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

Post by TonyTiger » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:35 pm

Please elaborate


TonyTiger
Member
Member
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 12:41 pm

Post by TonyTiger » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:46 pm

What sort of forum is this? Deleting emails if they don’t suit you, I’ll call it the way I see it thanks.

formerguest
Forum Suppoter
Forum Suppoter
Posts: 4093
Joined: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 7:33 pm

Post by formerguest » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:47 pm

fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 4:25 pm
TYGA wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:44 pm
fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:24 pm
hsvjones wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:11 pm


Unfortunately I agree with you on this as it would of been put to bed properly by actually talking to the media.

My main concern is that this happens after season and we miss out on a good coach and have to start all over again..

My Choice would be Michael M or Wayne Bennett (Only if Ivan leaves )
The problem with your interpretation is that when people in the public eye make categorical, unambiguous statements such as: (a) “I have not received any offer from the Panthers, nor have I asked the Wests Tigers for a release”; and “…. I intend to honour this contract”, I’m inclined to believe them.

The reason is that smart people don’t tell deliberate lies if there is a chance they will be caught out. They certainly don’t tell barefaced lies, which the above statements would prove to be, if he intended to take up a coaching position with the Panthers in 2019.

If Cleary intended to take up a contract with Penrith in 2019 he would not have been so unequivocal in his statement.
He has to deny any contract has been offered otherwise he would be in court with Gus. He also has to state he will see out his contract he is legally obliged to fulfil it.
This is where it gets murky if he is leaving likely at the end of his deal and has told Pascoe this it’s untenable and he will be released. Oldest trick in the book it will come out as mutual agreement. If Maquire is available I’d waste no time and get it done.
West’s have the cash Cleary can coach the Magpies.

Fair enough Tyga. My point remains that smart people don't normally tell bare-faced lies in public. They choose their words carefully.

Cleary didn't have to deny a contract had been offered and he didn't have to state his intention to honour his contract.

Take Seibold for example - he started his presser last night saying he wanted to make a statement about the coaching position. He expressed disappointment at the false news in the press; said he would not take any questions on the subject; and then said "I am contracted to the Rabbihos for the next 15 months". End of story.

Cleary could have done the same thing. Seibold's statement won't put the matter to bed; but then, Ivan's more fulsome statement hasn't either. So, rather than lie, Cleary could have done a Seibold.
Good to see that you are open to listening to opinions. I now suggest that you look to the words of your first two paragraphs above, along with your previous "unequivocal" description of his statement.

The statement was worded very carefully, so Ivan could not be accused of lying. For instance, I will, rather than, "I intend" is a definitive line. More telling is the "not received" term in relation to a contract, which leaves as much wriggle room as Steve Waugh would for a cutter outside off stump. He never denied an offer, nor that he had agreed to one for that matter, because he did not address the issue. Words to the effect of 'did not even discuss me going there in the next couple of years, let alone terms' are an unequivocal denial.

Ivan almost certainly doesn't want to front any pointed questions from the media that require a direct yes or no answer, as he doesn't have the ability of a politician to avoid answering.
Last edited by formerguest on Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
willow
Member
Member
Posts: 33104
Joined: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 9:28 pm
Location: The Village

Post by willow » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:49 pm

TonyTiger wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:46 pm
What sort of forum is this? Deleting emails if they don’t suit you, I’ll call it the way I see it thanks.
If you're going to post crap - and by crap I mean defamatory comments like the one I deleted then you may as well find another forum to post on because you won't last on here.

TonyTiger
Member
Member
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 12:41 pm

Post by TonyTiger » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:59 pm

What are the defamatory comments you refer to?
I didn’t mention anything that is not already known - just expressing in my own poetic way.


Nelson
Member
Member
Posts: 3422
Joined: Sat 31 Oct, 2015 11:17 am

Post by Nelson » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 10:00 pm

TonyTiger wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:46 pm
What sort of forum is this? Deleting emails if they don’t suit you, I’ll call it the way I see it thanks.
It's a regulated one. Go post your rants on League Unlimited if you can't handle it, anything goes there...

User avatar
willow
Member
Member
Posts: 33104
Joined: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 9:28 pm
Location: The Village

Post by willow » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 10:04 pm

TonyTiger wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:59 pm
What are the defamatory comments you refer to?
I didn’t mention anything that is not already known - just expressing in my own poetic way.
There's nothing poetic about your posts, and I'd heed Nelson's advice if you don't like it here.

Donald Trump
Member
Member
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue 15 Nov, 2016 5:28 pm

Post by Donald Trump » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 10:40 pm

Mmmm. Might have a look at league Unlimited
Let's make the Tigers great again!

TIGERPOWER
Member
Member
Posts: 508
Joined: Wed 25 Apr, 2018 10:36 am

Post by TIGERPOWER » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 10:53 pm

The Patriot wrote:
Thu 16 Aug, 2018 6:39 pm
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Thu 16 Aug, 2018 6:02 pm
Yet you conveniently kept all the posts before mine. Did people get offended that I called them out for not getting my sarcastic responses.

So you want to protect your friends from looking stupid yet happy to keep all the comments about me up without allowing me a right to reply. Good to see the boys club alive and well.
I didnt think you did much wrong.

One of the few on here not afraid to have an unpopular opinion, it draws a lot of attention.
Thanks for the support. You call it as it is and people get ruffled.

TIGERPOWER
Member
Member
Posts: 508
Joined: Wed 25 Apr, 2018 10:36 am

Post by TIGERPOWER » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 10:56 pm

Donald Trump wrote:
Thu 16 Aug, 2018 6:49 pm
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Thu 16 Aug, 2018 6:02 pm
Yet you conveniently kept all the posts before mine. Did people get offended that I called them out for not getting my sarcastic responses.

So you want to protect your friends from looking stupid yet happy to keep all the comments about me up without allowing me a right to reply. Good to see the boys club alive and well.
I’ve been reading through your posts and God damn it I like your style. Yes you can only say so much on here before certain people just don’t agree with you and then your profile gets banned. I made comments about Chris Lawrence years ago when he sucked hoping his contract wouldn’t be renewed.

Is this a forum or not? We are debating issues and people get a bit passionate.

Much like the NRL the refs need to stop calling so many penalties.

Let’s see if that shut down my account following this....
That’s the whole point of a forum, different opinions make a forum. As long as it’s policed fairly with no double standards then I’m happy to get pulled up when I step out of line.

TonyTiger
Member
Member
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon 04 Dec, 2017 12:41 pm

Post by TonyTiger » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 11:02 pm

Nelson wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 10:00 pm
TonyTiger wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:46 pm
What sort of forum is this? Deleting emails if they don’t suit you, I’ll call it the way I see it thanks.
It's a regulated one. Go post your rants on League Unlimited if you can't handle it, anything goes there...
[/quote

goldcoast tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 6395
Joined: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 5:42 pm

Post by goldcoast tiger » Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:05 am

TYGA wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:44 pm
fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:24 pm
hsvjones wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:11 pm
TYGA wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 12:57 pm
I’d be very surprised if Cleary is not released by November. I think it’s more than likely Our management was out manoeuvred by Penrith. I hope he stays but it’s unlikely in my view. It’s probably all denial stuff until the season finishes.
Unfortunately I agree with you on this as it would of been put to bed properly by actually talking to the media.

My main concern is that this happens after season and we miss out on a good coach and have to start all over again..

My Choice would be Michael M or Wayne Bennett (Only if Ivan leaves )
The problem with your interpretation is that when people in the public eye make categorical, unambiguous statements such as: (a) “I have not received any offer from the Panthers, nor have I asked the Wests Tigers for a release”; and “…. I intend to honour this contract”, I’m inclined to believe them.

The reason is that smart people don’t tell deliberate lies if there is a chance they will be caught out. They certainly don’t tell barefaced lies, which the above statements would prove to be, if he intended to take up a coaching position with the Panthers in 2019.

If Cleary intended to take up a contract with Penrith in 2019 he would not have been so unequivocal in his statement.
He has to deny any contract has been offered otherwise he would be in court with Gus. He also has to state he will see out his contract he is legally obliged to fulfil it.
This is where it gets murky if he is leaving likely at the end of his deal and has told Pascoe this it’s untenable and he will be released. Oldest trick in the book it will come out as mutual agreement. If Maquire is available I’d waste no time and get it done.
West’s have the cash Cleary can coach the Magpies.

goldcoast tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 6395
Joined: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 5:42 pm

Post by goldcoast tiger » Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:10 am

goldcoast tiger wrote:
Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:05 am
TYGA wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:44 pm
fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:24 pm
hsvjones wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:11 pm


Unfortunately I agree with you on this as it would of been put to bed properly by actually talking to the media.

My main concern is that this happens after season and we miss out on a good coach and have to start all over again..

My Choice would be Michael M or Wayne Bennett (Only if Ivan leaves )
The problem with your interpretation is that when people in the public eye make categorical, unambiguous statements such as: (a) “I have not received any offer from the Panthers, nor have I asked the Wests Tigers for a release”; and “…. I intend to honour this contract”, I’m inclined to believe them.

The reason is that smart people don’t tell deliberate lies if there is a chance they will be caught out. They certainly don’t tell barefaced lies, which the above statements would prove to be, if he intended to take up a coaching position with the Panthers in 2019.

If Cleary intended to take up a contract with Penrith in 2019 he would not have been so unequivocal in his statement.
He has to deny any contract has been offered otherwise he would be in court with Gus. He also has to state he will see out his contract he is legally obliged to fulfil it.
This is where it gets murky if he is leaving likely at the end of his deal and has told Pascoe this it’s untenable and he will be released. Oldest trick in the book it will come out as mutual agreement. If Maquire is available I’d waste no time and get it done.
West’s have the cash Cleary can coach the Magpies.
It will be a long time before you see Any NRL club in a court action with any player, too many skeletons in their cupboard, they would avoid that at all costs.Any threats of serious Court action,
Would be just that, Threats.

formerguest
Forum Suppoter
Forum Suppoter
Posts: 4093
Joined: Fri 07 Jun, 2013 7:33 pm

Post by formerguest » Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:35 am

goldcoast tiger wrote:
Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:10 am
goldcoast tiger wrote:
Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:05 am
TYGA wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:44 pm
fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:24 pm


The problem with your interpretation is that when people in the public eye make categorical, unambiguous statements such as: (a) “I have not received any offer from the Panthers, nor have I asked the Wests Tigers for a release”; and “…. I intend to honour this contract”, I’m inclined to believe them.

The reason is that smart people don’t tell deliberate lies if there is a chance they will be caught out. They certainly don’t tell barefaced lies, which the above statements would prove to be, if he intended to take up a coaching position with the Panthers in 2019.

If Cleary intended to take up a contract with Penrith in 2019 he would not have been so unequivocal in his statement.
He has to deny any contract has been offered otherwise he would be in court with Gus. He also has to state he will see out his contract he is legally obliged to fulfil it.
This is where it gets murky if he is leaving likely at the end of his deal and has told Pascoe this it’s untenable and he will be released. Oldest trick in the book it will come out as mutual agreement. If Maquire is available I’d waste no time and get it done.
West’s have the cash Cleary can coach the Magpies.
It will be a long time before you see Any NRL club in a court action with any player, too many skeletons in their cupboard, they would avoid that at all costs.Any threats of serious Court action,
Would be just that, Threats.
General discovery would likely be enough to put them off, let alone a subpoena or two.

User avatar
Demps
Member
Member
Posts: 8269
Joined: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Newcastle

Post by Demps » Sat 18 Aug, 2018 9:43 am

Donald Trump wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 10:40 pm
Mmmm. Might have a look at league Unlimited
Take care.
#Unbeatable

"I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid" - John Gotti

Wests Tigers Forum's most brilliant mind.

User avatar
fibrodreaming
Member
Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon 28 Mar, 2011 4:36 pm

Post by fibrodreaming » Sat 18 Aug, 2018 9:48 am

formerguest wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:47 pm
fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 4:25 pm
TYGA wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:44 pm
fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:24 pm


The problem with your interpretation is that when people in the public eye make categorical, unambiguous statements such as: (a) “I have not received any offer from the Panthers, nor have I asked the Wests Tigers for a release”; and “…. I intend to honour this contract”, I’m inclined to believe them.

The reason is that smart people don’t tell deliberate lies if there is a chance they will be caught out. They certainly don’t tell barefaced lies, which the above statements would prove to be, if he intended to take up a coaching position with the Panthers in 2019.

If Cleary intended to take up a contract with Penrith in 2019 he would not have been so unequivocal in his statement.
He has to deny any contract has been offered otherwise he would be in court with Gus. He also has to state he will see out his contract he is legally obliged to fulfil it.
This is where it gets murky if he is leaving likely at the end of his deal and has told Pascoe this it’s untenable and he will be released. Oldest trick in the book it will come out as mutual agreement. If Maquire is available I’d waste no time and get it done.
West’s have the cash Cleary can coach the Magpies.

Fair enough Tyga. My point remains that smart people don't normally tell bare-faced lies in public. They choose their words carefully.

Cleary didn't have to deny a contract had been offered and he didn't have to state his intention to honour his contract.

Take Seibold for example - he started his presser last night saying he wanted to make a statement about the coaching position. He expressed disappointment at the false news in the press; said he would not take any questions on the subject; and then said "I am contracted to the Rabbihos for the next 15 months". End of story.

Cleary could have done the same thing. Seibold's statement won't put the matter to bed; but then, Ivan's more fulsome statement hasn't either. So, rather than lie, Cleary could have done a Seibold.
Good to see that you are open to listening to opinions. I now suggest that you look to the words of your first two paragraphs above, along with your previous "unequivocal" description of his statement.

The statement was worded very carefully, so Ivan could not be accused of lying. For instance, I will, rather than, "I intend" is a definitive line. More telling is the "not received" term in relation to a contract, which leaves as much wriggle room as Steve Waugh would for a cutter outside off stump. He never denied an offer, nor that he had agreed to one for that matter, because he did not address the issue. Words to the effect of 'did not even discuss me going there in the next couple of years, let alone terms' are an unequivocal denial.

Ivan almost certainly doesn't want to front any pointed questions from the media that require a direct yes or no answer, as he doesn't have the ability of a politician to avoid answering.
I must confess FG that I find your arguments unconvincing.

Ivan said "“I have not received any offer from the Panthers...", to which you say: "He never denied an offer....". It sounds like a denial to me.

Moreover the "any offer" suggests to me that he has not received an offer either orally or in writing and that he has not received an offer to coach now or any time in the future. That sounds pretty unequivocal.

I'm quite happy with Ivan saying: "I intend to honour this contract”, rather than "I will". I think that It is quite appropriate to talk of our intentions in regard to future acts when we do not have complete control over their completion. For example, if the Board loses confidence in Ivan then his contract may be terminated early.

The fact that Ivan does not want to answer pointed questions from the media is entirely reasonable. He has had a personal and confidential conversation with his mate from Penrith and, because the content is confidential, he is not prepared to divulge the details. That's fair enough, besides, it would be a major distraction, that neither he, nor the Tigers can afford.

Finally, my point remains, he didn't need to go as far as he did in his statement. He could have taken the Seibold approach and essentially said nothing. For mine, Siebold's "statement" raises many more questions than Ivan's.

Russell
Member
Member
Posts: 5164
Joined: Sat 10 Dec, 2011 6:46 pm

Post by Russell » Sat 18 Aug, 2018 9:49 am

Can't see what the drama is.

Cleary said he will honour his contract. He is an honourable man.

So if he leaves for somewhere else for the 2021 season, he is within his rights to do that - whether he goes to the Pamfirrs or the Gulargambone jets is his business.

We would sign a new coach for the 2021 season - i would think the club would be in an excellent position at that stage.

Never thought Nathan would come to the Tigers for his next contract anyway. I still think Ivan will stay on after this contract expires - he will not play under "The Fibber" imo.

User avatar
Tiger Steve
Member
Member
Posts: 1989
Joined: Wed 29 Mar, 2017 5:30 pm
Location: Chatswood West

Post by Tiger Steve » Sat 18 Aug, 2018 10:39 am

Oh dear! There’s a fluff piece on the Tigers web site about Matalino. It goes to some length to reassure us that if Ivan was to go to Penrith, matalino would see out his contract.

As I said in an earlier post, I am hanging on to the belief Ivan is a man of his word but everything else is pointing to an early exit.
“Peanuts! Get ya peanuts - in the shell or sugar coated!” Leichhardt memories.

Locked