Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

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GNR4LIFE
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Re: Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

Post by GNR4LIFE » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:25 am

https://www.weststigers.com.au/news/201 ... ead-coach/

States it very clearly

“Will take on the role as head coach”

Trying to compare it to players is ridiculous. Players aren’t announced as exclusively first grade players.


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Post by formerguest » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:43 am

Finding it quite odd that many more are now agitated about Cleary likely going to Penrith in two years time. Particularly because some of those same people were having a go at me and others when some two months ago he commenced discussions to leave WT as early as next year.

This situation has already derailed the end of our season, affected the fan base, whilst almost certainly curtailing recruitment and retention. It seems that the club is about to put a stop to the haemorrhaging, but I still think it should have been handled much more thoroughly and honestly in the initial days.

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Post by Pawsandclaws » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:48 am

TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:47 am
Luke brooks quoted in fox sports saying it would be difficult to play under Ivan Cleary if I he had signed to be at the panthers in 2021.
Losing the support of his players is a huge concern for Cleary. Word gets around and this may be the WTs strongest weapon against the Panthers. Good on Brooks for telling it how it is without all the PC answers we get these days.

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Post by TIGERPOWER » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:54 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:48 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:41 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:20 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:15 am


I wouldn’t be happy to pay 2 coaches but I didn’t say I wouldn’t do it.

At least I’m pretty clear where I stand on this topic. One minute your wanting Cleary out, next minute your not bothered. Tell us what we should do oh wise one ?
I’ve never said I wanted him out :?
Yes you have multiple times lol. Do you have a short memory. Let me quote you :

“If he does sign for 2021 let him go now”

“The circus with the Clearys started the day Ivan was appointed and it needs to end asap”

When Hobbo went on his rant to get rid of him because he was a s*** coach you were the first one to agree.

Now run along.
Not sure when you became able to throw stones about a change of opinion. You were his biggest defender, then was one of the first to turn on him.
I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.

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Post by TigerTiger » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:59 am

rex2ce wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:13 am
The club could say to Ivan, you will continue to be known as head coach for the remainder of your contract, but we only want you to turn up on game day and do the presso, meantime get someone else in and call him assistant NRL coach, expensive, but not giving in to Gould
This ^

No-one said we can only have one head coach. There's only meant to be one captain, hey Ivan? If Ivan signs with Penrith for 2021, he can stay as head coach, and he can go and sit in the corner and play with all his friends whilst we get down to business.

Expensive? Yes, sure. But do you really think a man of such high integrity as Ivan claims to be would dig his heels in after unloading all this on us? His reputation would take an even bigger hit.
A one eyed supporter, mostly :crazy, always :sign:


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Post by GNR4LIFE » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:03 am

TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:54 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:48 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:41 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:20 am

I’ve never said I wanted him out :?
Yes you have multiple times lol. Do you have a short memory. Let me quote you :

“If he does sign for 2021 let him go now”

“The circus with the Clearys started the day Ivan was appointed and it needs to end asap”

When Hobbo went on his rant to get rid of him because he was a s*** coach you were the first one to agree.

Now run along.
Not sure when you became able to throw stones about a change of opinion. You were his biggest defender, then was one of the first to turn on him.
I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.
Christ, who cares, you are arguing sematics. You shifted the conversation cos you were getting nowhere with the Cleary to reserve grade talk. The only one who seems to think i should be embarrassed over something so trivial is you. No one else cares. Too busy debunking your claims that the club can dump Ivan to reserve grade.

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Post by TIGERPOWER » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:08 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:03 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:54 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:48 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:41 am


Yes you have multiple times lol. Do you have a short memory. Let me quote you :

“If he does sign for 2021 let him go now”

“The circus with the Clearys started the day Ivan was appointed and it needs to end asap”

When Hobbo went on his rant to get rid of him because he was a s*** coach you were the first one to agree.

Now run along.
Not sure when you became able to throw stones about a change of opinion. You were his biggest defender, then was one of the first to turn on him.
I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.
Christ, who cares, you are arguing sematics. You shifted the conversation cos you were getting nowhere with the Cleary to reserve grade talk. The only one who seems to think i should be embarrassed over something so trivial is you. No one else cares. Too busy debunking your claims that the club can dump Ivan to reserve grade.
At least I don’t lie to support my position on a topic lol. Any employee can be demoted it’s common sense, you can keep arguing it as long as you want.

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Post by beachtiger » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:37 am

TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:08 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:03 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:54 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:48 am

Not sure when you became able to throw stones about a change of opinion. You were his biggest defender, then was one of the first to turn on him.
I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.
Christ, who cares, you are arguing sematics. You shifted the conversation cos you were getting nowhere with the Cleary to reserve grade talk. The only one who seems to think i should be embarrassed over something so trivial is you. No one else cares. Too busy debunking your claims that the club can dump Ivan to reserve grade.
At least I don’t lie to support my position on a topic lol. Any employee can be demoted it’s common sense, you can keep arguing it as long as you want.
Not as simple as that TP, much of it comes down to the way an employee's contract has been written. If a person has been employed for a specific position and that is stated in a written contract agreement then they can only be "demoted" if they agree to it.

Companies will typically offer a "demotion" on the same pay as an easy way to remove someone from a position and hope that they will then leave the company anyway. This is often an easier way for companies to get rid of someone as their pride is hurt and they leave under their own volition.

The only other way to remove someone from a position with a specific contract is to manage them out of the business through performance reviews etc which can be very difficult, time consuming and disruptive to a business. Either way it's not as simple as saying a company can just demote someone because they want to.

If you remember back to the Tim Sheens saga the club tried to change his position and he said no. The club then moved forward and sacked Sheens and brought in Potter and it ended up with Sheens taking the club to court and winning and that is because his contract was as a Head Coach and nothing else, he didn't accept the offer to change positions in the company.

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Post by momo&medo » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:53 am

goldcoast tiger wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 6:44 am
Nucky Thompson wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 6:16 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Thu 20 Sep, 2018 9:55 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Thu 20 Sep, 2018 9:41 pm
Job descriptions would be included in his contract, some thing along the lines of 'NRL coach Wests Tigers'
Punting him to reserve grade assistant isnt an option....LOL, or even illegal
So hold on, no worker can ever be demoted??? It’s an option for every employee to be demoted by his employer. The only thing he is entitled to is his wages. Oh dear tweedle dee, you always jump the gun to show your smartness and it always seems to backfire on you lol lol .
Robbie farah comes to mind.


Big Difference
An NRL contract states that you will play for the club.
In most , if not all , they do Not State that you can’t be dropped.

A first grade coach is employed to coach First Grade, very clearly.
There’s not any similarities between RF’s situation and Ivan’s
And Ink is right
It may be you TP,that jumped the gun :rant
Yep, know a bit about employment contracts and Ink is right.

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Post by Nelson » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:53 am

TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:08 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:03 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:54 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:48 am

Not sure when you became able to throw stones about a change of opinion. You were his biggest defender, then was one of the first to turn on him.
I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.
Christ, who cares, you are arguing sematics. You shifted the conversation cos you were getting nowhere with the Cleary to reserve grade talk. The only one who seems to think i should be embarrassed over something so trivial is you. No one else cares. Too busy debunking your claims that the club can dump Ivan to reserve grade.
At least I don’t lie to support my position on a topic lol. Any employee can be demoted it’s common sense, you can keep arguing it as long as you want.
Listen whatever your anecdotal experience might be your statement that any employee can be demoted is just wrong as a matter of employment law and contract law. You should let it go.

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Post by momo&medo » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:55 am

formerguest wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:43 am
Finding it quite odd that many more are now agitated about Cleary likely going to Penrith in two years time. Particularly because some of those same people were having a go at me and others when some two months ago he commenced discussions to leave WT as early as next year.

This situation has already derailed the end of our season, affected the fan base, whilst almost certainly curtailing recruitment and retention. It seems that the club is about to put a stop to the haemorrhaging, but I still think it should have been handled much more thoroughly and honestly in the initial days.
I don’t hear the Fat Lady song ...... yet!
We all need to save our gunpowder on who is right and who is a smart tea leaves reader.

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Post by supercoach » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:14 am

Every possible thing on Cleary gate has been discussed fifty times. Basically there are two options.
1 we keep him for two years or more
2 we do a deal with Gus the fat toad

Iam one of the few that have no problems with him staying just the two years and finishing the re build. On the other hand I am okay with starting it fresh with a new guy.

The one thing that must happen.....This has to be resolved very very quickly so the place can return to normal business. One last thing...if Cleary stays, both him and the club have to do plenty of repair work and not a 30 second prepared statement

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:19 am

Nelson wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:53 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:08 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:03 am
TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:54 am


I changed my opinion on Cleary after I found he wanted to coach the panthers and I’ve wanted him gone since.

You just stated that you never wanted him out. So your lying to defend yourself. On Wednesday you said you wanted him gone. It’s one thing to change your opinion it’s another thing to lie and get caught doing it. Now stop embarrasing yourself and run along.
Christ, who cares, you are arguing sematics. You shifted the conversation cos you were getting nowhere with the Cleary to reserve grade talk. The only one who seems to think i should be embarrassed over something so trivial is you. No one else cares. Too busy debunking your claims that the club can dump Ivan to reserve grade.
At least I don’t lie to support my position on a topic lol. Any employee can be demoted it’s common sense, you can keep arguing it as long as you want.
Listen whatever your anecdotal experience might be your statement that any employee can be demoted is just wrong as a matter of employment law and contract law. You should let it go.
It’s a very simplistic view. I posted a link earlier to the announcement where it was stated he would be the head coach of the NRL side. Unlike when players sign, they are not announced as simply first graders. There is zero precedent of a club demoting a coach to reserve grade. Not even in 2006 when Michael Hagen and Brian Smith switched roles at Newcastle and Parramatta for 2007. But a couple random posters on the internet swear blind it’s possible. Lol righto.
Last edited by GNR4LIFE on Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by formerguest » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:19 am

momo&medo wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:55 am
formerguest wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:43 am
Finding it quite odd that many more are now agitated about Cleary likely going to Penrith in two years time. Particularly because some of those same people were having a go at me and others when some two months ago he commenced discussions to leave WT as early as next year.

This situation has already derailed the end of our season, affected the fan base, whilst almost certainly curtailing recruitment and retention. It seems that the club is about to put a stop to the haemorrhaging, but I still think it should have been handled much more thoroughly and honestly in the initial days.
I don’t hear the Fat Lady song ...... yet!
We all need to save our gunpowder on who is right and who is a smart tea leaves reader.
Nothing ultimate in my post M&M, as the issues have not changed. Simply observation of the altered dynamics, despite the relatively stagnant situation.

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Post by WT2K » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:45 am

TIGERPOWER wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:47 am
Luke brooks quoted in fox sports saying it would be difficult to play under Ivan Cleary if I he had signed to be at the panthers in 2021.
Good on Luke for not sugar coating it. I'd guess there are a few more players within the group that would be feeling the same way.
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Post by jirskyr » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:51 am

supercoach wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:14 am
Every possible thing on Cleary gate has been discussed fifty times. Basically there are two options.
1 we keep him for two years or more
2 we do a deal with Gus the fat toad

Iam one of the few that have no problems with him staying just the two years and finishing the re build. On the other hand I am okay with starting it fresh with a new guy.

The one thing that must happen.....This has to be resolved very very quickly so the place can return to normal business. One last thing...if Cleary stays, both him and the club have to do plenty of repair work and not a 30 second prepared statement
I agree.

Does nobody think it's a bit ironic that most on here were happy to sign NC as halfback from 2020, but a significant number of those folks wouldn't want to keep Ivan if he had signed somewhere else from 2021? Is Nathan Cleary not going do his job at Penrith in 2019 if he's going to the Tigers a year later? Would Ivan not do his job at Tigers if he was leaving a few years later?

In fact for me, the idea that it's 2 years from now and not 1, that's even more stability; yet some people think that is untenable.

The point I continue to make is look at the current contract situation for all NRL coaches - very few of them have their futures sewn up beyond 2020, which is the Ivan situation - only Bellamy, Green and Robinson, and they are all extensions done in 2018.

Every other coach has contract ending 2019 or 2020 - Bennett has an option for 2019?

So whilst you might make an argument that having a coach sign elsewhere in advance impacts recruitment in a way that signing a player in a similar timeframe does not, what player can truly sign a long-term deal with any club and "expect" that the coach doesn't change?

If you sign for Tigers right now for 2 years, that's the entire length of Cleary's current contract. If you sign for 3 years until end 2021, then you skip over him by 1 year and you know he's leaving. But that would also be true of most clubs - signing a 3-year deal 2019-2021 for 13/16 NRL clubs would mean you have no assurances that the current coach will still be there when you finish up.

And then with the way coaches get culled these days, not even short-term player contracts have any guarantees that a coach will see out his contract.

What would actually be worse would be if we cut Cleary right now, in terms of assuring players, because most of them have signed on for terms equivalent to Cleary's coaching contract. So yes maybe the speculation impacts future signings, but what of Matulino, Packer, Matterson, Mbye, Farah, Benji, Brooks etc. - real current players, not future speculative players - who all signed on with the understanding that Cleary would be the coach for the term of their contract?

I agree that I'd like this sorted for certain as soon as possible, publicly, but not for future signings, for the stability of the current roster.

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Post by gallagher » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 11:09 am

If he stays on and has agreed to terms with the panthers for 2021 then we need a coaching director to handle all player retention/recruitment above Cleary. Someone who could also fill in on a temporary role if Cleary wants out mid season.

I've always thought Sheens would have been great at this role, hes the smartest bloke ever to be involved with the club, including the current mob.

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Post by jadtiger » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 11:14 am

gallagher wrote:
Fri 21 Sep, 2018 11:09 am
If he stays on and has agreed to terms with the panthers for 2021 then we need a coaching director to handle all player retention/recruitment above Cleary. Someone who could also fill in on a temporary role if Cleary wants out mid season.

I've always thought Sheens would have been great at this role, hes the smartest bloke ever to be involved with the club, including the current mob.
Sheens refused coaching director in the past which is why he was terminated,besides he would only sign 92k back row forwards to play in every position in the pack.

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