Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

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Re: Ivan Cleary - THREAD..

Post by NT Tiger » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 10:52 am

Tcat wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 9:32 am
NT Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 8:15 am
Roar Power wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 7:59 am
The Bard wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 7:19 am
I thought it interesting that the father clause was removed from Nathan’s contract. You’d think that would reduce Ivan’s bargaining power for any future contract with the Panthers. If Ciraldo has a successful 2019 and the Panthers are on an upward trend then it’ll be difficult to change that by removing him.
Unless Ivan has already signed from 2021 onwards...
I really don't see why Gould would want Ivan back. To me it is evident that Gould did not think he was the coach to move the team forward beyond the rebuild. That team is now within striking distance of a Grand Final. I don't see Gould as being overly sentimental, so bringing Ivan back for a 'feel good' story would not be the first thing in his agenda. Gould has what he wants, he doesn't need the daddy distraction.
Gould needs Ivan at some stage to get/keep Nathan. Ivan wants to coach his son and it will be at penrith, however any real coaching or recruitment decisions wont be made by Ivan and he would know that.
I don't think he does need Ivan. I read somewhere that there was no daddy clause in Nathans contract.
"Quality Stupidity"


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Post by Russell » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 11:04 am

innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 10:51 am
TigerTiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 9:20 am
NT Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 6:48 am
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 6:29 am


Thats the kicker.
I think that is a bit of over-simplification.
His son wants to play where he has grown up playing in a group he has developed successful working combinations with. That group has made positive inroads towards finals football. So should he stick with them, or come over to a team that is still building and some time away from successful finals football, just because his dad coaches there?
I understand why Nathan would want to stay at Penrith, they are ahead of us at the moment in every single facet, all excepting one - his father coaching at WT.

The point is, if Ivan really believed that he would stay at WT and that if he had confidence in his own coaching abilities to mould us into a genuine force, then he could say to his son to come over and together they can make WT as good as or Better than Penrith.
But no, Nathan staying at Penrith says to me that his own father couldn't/didn't convince him to come over to WT (we know Ivan wants to coach his son), and that could really only be because of one reason.

Ivan believes WT will not be as good as Penrith in terms of an overall package.

That's what will make it hard to convince other players to come over, when Ivan's own son has insufficient confidence in his own father's ability to get our team to a decent level.
That's really stretching a long bow imo....

You don't get as far in the game as Ivan has without confidence.... And maybe, just maybe... He's allowing his son to be an adult, make his own decisions for what he believes will make him happy

Talk about twisting things :roll:
Agree with you Ink - what am I doing?

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Post by jirskyr » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 11:25 am

innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 10:51 am
TigerTiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 9:20 am
NT Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 6:48 am
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 6:29 am


Thats the kicker.
I think that is a bit of over-simplification.
His son wants to play where he has grown up playing in a group he has developed successful working combinations with. That group has made positive inroads towards finals football. So should he stick with them, or come over to a team that is still building and some time away from successful finals football, just because his dad coaches there?
I understand why Nathan would want to stay at Penrith, they are ahead of us at the moment in every single facet, all excepting one - his father coaching at WT.

The point is, if Ivan really believed that he would stay at WT and that if he had confidence in his own coaching abilities to mould us into a genuine force, then he could say to his son to come over and together they can make WT as good as or Better than Penrith.
But no, Nathan staying at Penrith says to me that his own father couldn't/didn't convince him to come over to WT (we know Ivan wants to coach his son), and that could really only be because of one reason.

Ivan believes WT will not be as good as Penrith in terms of an overall package.

That's what will make it hard to convince other players to come over, when Ivan's own son has insufficient confidence in his own father's ability to get our team to a decent level.
That's really stretching a long bow imo....

You don't get as far in the game as Ivan has without confidence.... And maybe, just maybe... He's allowing his son to be an adult, make his own decisions for what he believes will make him happy

Talk about twisting things :roll:
I agree with ink.

Nathan is old enough to make his own decisions and it's evident that he has the talent to play where he chooses, rather than being dependent on the good graces of his father.

On record that he'd love to be coached by his Dad, but he's just signed a deal that keeps him very well paid at his current club for the next 6 years (until end 2024). Could Tigers have matched the value and duration of such a deal? I'd argue that most Tigers fans are happy that we did not, imagine the uproar if we'd signed Nathan to a 6-year deal.

It's different for Penrith, he's a foundation junior player there and has come through the grades with lots of their other juniors. Nathan currently has more intrinsic value to Penrith than to Tigers, same as Luke Brooks has more stock with Tigers than elsewhere.

I personally don't think it says anything about Tigers or Ivan's coaching. In fact in his Q&A with nrl.com, Nathan stated that he felt Penrith weren't far off a grand final, but also that Tigers were not so far off either, in his opinion.

Quite feasible the kid just preferred not to leave his junior club and his mates, and was offered a very long and lucrative deal that made it easy enough to sign on. Any talk of moving to Tigers was media speculation only, not confirmed by the club, and almost certainly the Clearys knew such talk would drive up Nathan's price.

Going off happy's conspiracy post, perhaps the entire noise about Ivan coaching Nathan and possibly bringing him to the Tigers was simply to drive up his price at Penrith? Unlikely, but it certainly doesn't harm Nathan's stock.

And lastly Nathan will be 26 when his new deal expires. His Dad will do well to still be coaching a FG side there, as coaches don't get 8-year runs without some level of success. But, barring injury or massive form drop, Nathan has at least 1 or 2 decent contracts left in his career.

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Post by Spartan117 » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:02 pm

All said and done congrats to the Clearys

This past few months has secured both their employment for the foreseeable futures.

I can see it all being discussed at the dinner table.

Coached by dad or not - It isnt that big a deal.

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Post by The Patriot » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm

People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Its an opinion!


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Post by NT Tiger » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:19 pm

The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
You can get all the good goss straight from the horses mouth in the NRL.com Q&A. Nathan discusses his decision to stay at Penrith in detail. I can't see other players reading into it what WT fans seem to, especially when, during the interview, Nathan says Wests Tigers are not far off finals football.
"Quality Stupidity"

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Post by jadtiger » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:30 pm

NT Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:19 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
You can get all the good goss straight from the horses mouth in the NRL.com Q&A. Nathan discusses his decision to stay at Penrith in detail. I can't see other players reading into it what WT fans seem to, especially when, during the interview, Nathan says Wests Tigers are not far off finals football.
Well said

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Post by innsaneink » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:12 pm

The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought... Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

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Post by The Patriot » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:21 pm

NT Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:19 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
You can get all the good goss straight from the horses mouth in the NRL.com Q&A. Nathan discusses his decision to stay at Penrith in detail. I can't see other players reading into it what WT fans seem to, especially when, during the interview, Nathan says Wests Tigers are not far off finals football.

Ohh did Nathan say we arent far off finals football. Thats nice of him.
Its an opinion!

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Post by The Patriot » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:30 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:12 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought... Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.
Its an opinion!

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Post by TigerTiger » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:47 pm

The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:30 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:12 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought... Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.
Add to that rumours put forward by reputable sources (the QUEEN) that this Penrith saga has cost us at least one potential recruit already, and that the WT club are dealing with it quite seriously in that if Ivan is making other long term plans than we are looking at other short term plans.

I'll feel a lot better about all this, when the following few things happen:

1) We re-sign Brooks, (I question the delay?)
2) We sign at least 1 more (preferably 2 or 3) very solid decent first graders
3) Ivan makes clear that he is not going to Penrith in 2021, that he is committed to WT long term. How this exactly happens, I don't precisely know, but it needs to be sorted somehow. Simply saying I don't respond to rumours is not good enough, as the rumours have certainly damaged his integrity (as an unsubstantiated untrue rumour can damage the integrity of a school teacher)
4) Ivan needs to stop NOW saying or implying any innuendo about him coaching his son. Now it implies that he wants to leave, so he cannot make that innuendo anymore. Focus on WT first thank you.
A one eyed supporter, mostly :crazy, always :sign:

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Post by NT Tiger » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:48 pm

The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:30 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:12 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought... Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.
'Most good judges' obviously got it wrong, indeed like lots of other things.
"Quality Stupidity"

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Post by TheDaBoss » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:51 pm

TigerTiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:47 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:30 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:12 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought... Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.
Add to that rumours put forward by reputable sources (the QUEEN) that this Penrith saga has cost us at least one potential recruit already, and that the WT club are dealing with it quite seriously in that if Ivan is making other long term plans than we are looking at other short term plans.

I'll feel a lot better about all this, when the following few things happen:

1) We re-sign Brooks, (I question the delay?)
2) We sign at least 1 more (preferably 2 or 3) very solid decent first graders
3) Ivan makes clear that he is not going to Penrith in 2021, that he is committed to WT long term. How this exactly happens, I don't precisely know, but it needs to be sorted somehow. Simply saying I don't respond to rumours is not good enough, as the rumours have certainly damaged his integrity (as an unsubstantiated untrue rumour can damage the integrity of a school teacher)
4) Ivan needs to stop NOW saying or implying any innuendo about him coaching his son. Now it implies that he wants to leave, so he cannot make that innuendo anymore. Focus on WT first thank you.

Yep


We can forget about NC for quite a while because ivan reckons he just wants what is best for him so yeah.

There are plenty of talented young guns who are off contract so surely we can lure at least one of them? cant we :brick:
:sign: + :deadhorse: = Ivan in a nutshell

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Post by NT Tiger » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 2:01 pm

The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:21 pm
NT Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:19 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
You can get all the good goss straight from the horses mouth in the NRL.com Q&A. Nathan discusses his decision to stay at Penrith in detail. I can't see other players reading into it what WT fans seem to, especially when, during the interview, Nathan says Wests Tigers are not far off finals football.

Ohh did Nathan say we arent far off finals football. Thats nice of him.
It was.
At least he rates Wests Tigers just like those of us in denial.
Ok, so you say Penrith is a better club.
Yes, I guess I'm in denial. I support Wests Tigers.
"Quality Stupidity"

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Post by innsaneink » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 2:05 pm

NT Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:48 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:30 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:12 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought... Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.
'Most good judges' obviously got it wrong, indeed like lots of other things.
Hahahah NT, you beat me to it

I think our brand is much the same as it has always been
Potential recruits know Ivan's here for the next two and Ciraldo is at Penrith next year as Gus said yesterday

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Post by innsaneink » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 2:07 pm

LMAO.... "reputable rumours"
That's gotta challenge "my source is my TV"

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Post by Geo. » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 2:23 pm

The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:30 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 1:12 pm
The Patriot wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 12:05 pm
People are in a little bit of denial on this one. Nathan more than likely chose Penrith over us because they are a better club.

The key factors like squad strength and facilities are what good class players look at.

What Tiger Tiger and myself have highlighted is that players might be inclined to think that if the Tigers arent good enough for the coach's son then why would it be good enough for me.

Just another down side of this whole Gould/Penrith mess.
Possible recruits won't give Nathan a 2nd thought... Except maybe in the knowledge what an attraction it is to stay and play with your mates is

Do you think our brand is in as strong a position as it was before this story of Ivan to Panthers broke?

Most good judges had Nathan playing for his dad at the Tigers and this club on a sharp upward spiral.

Now we have uncertainty over the coach and Nathan sticking solid with Penrith. Its not a great outcome and people are going to express that on a public forum.
Most good judges..do you mean Buzz Weidler Pooper and Read....lol..
Wests Tigers don't need a Coach.. The playing group has taken over..
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 12:17 am
OK I was wrong
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 22 Nov, 2018 12:13 am
I know at times I'm not always the brightest light in the kitchen

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Post by goldcoast tiger » Tue 25 Sep, 2018 3:36 pm

Elderslie Tiger wrote:
Tue 25 Sep, 2018 10:44 am
It's time for WESTS TIGERS to push the issue by either offering Ivan an extension of his current contract until 2022 or by changing direction by appointing a manager of football operations either Madge or Neil Henry if Ivan doesn't want to extend and isn't happen with the change of direction we can sell him off to Penriff a win/win situation.We end up with coaching stability and some cash or player swap Gus gets what he wants.Unfortunatly Ivan is not much use to us if he doesn't want to be with us beyond 2020 cut our losses move on.
Whydo you think that it’s just a case of selling him off to Penrith and getting a player swap.
A..he hasn’t breached his contract as far (as I’ve heard )
B...he’s said he’s staying and sticking to his contracts (as far asI’ve heard)
So where’s the grounds for getting rid of him
If the sack him, they’ll get bugger all money

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