Salary Cap Rorting | Ideas on a Potential Solution

Elderslie Tiger
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Re: Salary Cap Rorting | Ideas on a Potential Solution

Post by Elderslie Tiger » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:22 pm

Apparently all clubs are salary cap compliant for 2018 go figure


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Post by The_Doc » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:28 pm

I dont agree with much Kent says but last night on 360 he mentioned something about how the AFL dealt with carlton i think he said a few years ago. He basically said they came down that hard on them it effectively rendered them useless as a club for about 5 years. So therefore no other club has been in strife since, in a nut shell the NRL needs to come down hard very hard and clubs will think twice if they know it will make them useless for years, thats the only way the NRL is too soft though

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Post by bathursttiger » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:35 pm

I found out the other day that Group 10 has a point system in place to even up the competition, to stop the larger cities of Bathurst and Orange buying all the best players and basically buying a comp.
The smaller town get 2 extra points per season over the bigger cities.
Points are allocated to players on a varied scale eg: Ex NRL players Group players etc and it works really good.
Can’t see why it wouldn’t work in the NRL as well, except the powerbrokerd wouldn’t like it as it evens up the competition.

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Post by magpiecol » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:44 pm

Silentio wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 1:30 pm
From the NRL's website:

What players can earn outside the salary cap:

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.
Dennis Tutty.

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Post by sheer64 » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:46 pm

Did the Rorters have Ferguson on their books for $150k this season? No rorting here, nothing to see!
Today we saw a true champion in Winx, and a true bludger in Cleary!


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Post by Harvey » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:55 pm

Stand the players down for the length of the dodgy contract.

The full value of that contract is included in the clubs cap despite the player not being available and not being paid.

Any manager involved is banned for 10 years minimum.

The club has their cap reduced by at least twice the breach amount.

The NRL will not register a contract for any player the club signs from outside their system for at least 5 years.

2-10 points taken for up to 5 years.

Board sacked and banned.

CEO and anyone else with knowledge sacked, deregistered and banned.

Basically leave the club as a basket case for the next 5 years at least.

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Post by jadtiger » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 5:10 pm

magpiecol wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:44 pm
Silentio wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 1:30 pm
From the NRL's website:

What players can earn outside the salary cap:

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.
Dennis Tutty.
it was Terry Hill that destroyed the draft Tutty had retired well before it came in

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Post by 2041 » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 5:15 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 12:15 pm
Paul Kent made a really good point last night

Every Salary cap system that works is linked to a draft system

Obviously the punishments need to be far harsher , as he said when Carlton in the AFL got done in 2002 it took them 6 years to make the finals after the punishments were invoked
It's taken the Tigers seven (and counting) and we didn't even get busted for anything.

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Post by 2041 » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 5:26 pm

weststigers wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 11:29 am

2. PLAYERS
  • Fines up to $100,000 or up to the breach amount
  • Suspension of up to 3 months
  • Cancellation of contract and must play with another club
I'm not a contract lawyer, but I'm guessing putting financial penalties on players might be hard to do. The clubs are the ones that have the salary cap agreement with the competition, and it would be hard to argue that it's a player's responsibility to ensure that their employer is compliant with that agreement. I'm sure there have been players that "know" their top-up payments are dodgy, especially when you're talking about literal brown envelopes full of cash, but again it's not the players that have the responsibility for the way a club runs its business.

In addition, outside of the cap there's nothing actually illegal about players receiving payments from third parties (assuming they declare them for tax and so forth - and even that would between the player, his accountant and the ATO, nothing to do with the NRL). If Nick Politis's mates want to take James Tedesco golfing and chuck him $20,000 for his time, that's not an issue so far as the law is concerned. That puts the comp in very dubious legal territory when it comes to penalising players because there would be all sorts of issues around restraint of trade, unfair dismissal and so forth.

I'm also guessing the NRL is very cautious about punishing players for this sort of stuff anyway, especially given the big cap-breach scandals started when there was a very live threat from the UK, rugby etc. The threat of losing your livelihood because you've taken a few extra quid here and there would be a pretty big incentive to sign for a rival comp or code.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 7:20 pm

magpiecol wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:44 pm
Silentio wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 1:30 pm
From the NRL's website:

What players can earn outside the salary cap:

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.
Dennis Tutty.
Tutty was the residency rule, Hill was the draft.
Madge's Maulers.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 7:23 pm

2041 wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 5:26 pm
weststigers wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 11:29 am

2. PLAYERS
  • Fines up to $100,000 or up to the breach amount
  • Suspension of up to 3 months
  • Cancellation of contract and must play with another club
I'm not a contract lawyer, but I'm guessing putting financial penalties on players might be hard to do. The clubs are the ones that have the salary cap agreement with the competition, and it would be hard to argue that it's a player's responsibility to ensure that their employer is compliant with that agreement. I'm sure there have been players that "know" their top-up payments are dodgy, especially when you're talking about literal brown envelopes full of cash, but again it's not the players that have the responsibility for the way a club runs its business.

In addition, outside of the cap there's nothing actually illegal about players receiving payments from third parties (assuming they declare them for tax and so forth - and even that would between the player, his accountant and the ATO, nothing to do with the NRL). If Nick Politis's mates want to take James Tedesco golfing and chuck him $20,000 for his time, that's not an issue so far as the law is concerned. That puts the comp in very dubious legal territory when it comes to penalising players because there would be all sorts of issues around restraint of trade, unfair dismissal and so forth.

I'm also guessing the NRL is very cautious about punishing players for this sort of stuff anyway, especially given the big cap-breach scandals started when there was a very live threat from the UK, rugby etc. The threat of losing your livelihood because you've taken a few extra quid here and there would be a pretty big incentive to sign for a rival comp or code.
Good points, a different perspective there.

Reporting them to the ATO is probably the only real threat there, assuming they are not declaring it.
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Post by Cairnstigers » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 7:35 pm

Sack Greenberg
Put someone in with big🏐🏐

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Post by Donald Trump » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 8:19 pm

Abraham wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 12:37 pm
Where there is a will, there is a way.

As long as club's are willing to rort the system, they will find ways to do so.

The best way to counter this is by making the punishment so severe that clubs, players, and player managers will be so scared of being caught that they won't engage in under the table deals.

Clubs-
Fining them 10x the amount of the illegal benefit paid, and an automatic deduction of points, say 4 points for every $100,000.00 they are over the cap, would be a great start. Also a permanent life ban of any club official found complicit in the matter would be enough to deter most club personnel from taking part.

Players-
Fining players the amount of the illegal benefit, and suspending them for a period equal to the illegal benefit they received, would make sure that all players declare every cent of cash and non cash payment they received form clubs.

Player Managers-
A life ban from representing NRL players if their client is found to have benefited from illegal benefits.

All of the above is easily enforced if the club, player, and manager each have to sign a stat dec provided to the NRL declaring all direct and indirect benefits a player is receiving from the club. Anything outside of what has been signed off on is met with the above punishment.
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Post by yeti » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 8:36 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 7:20 pm
magpiecol wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:44 pm
Silentio wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 1:30 pm
From the NRL's website:

What players can earn outside the salary cap:

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.
Dennis Tutty.
Tutty was the residency rule, Hill was the draft.
Dennis Tutty took the NSWRL to court over the Transfer fees clubs put in place on players who had finished their contracts. Prior to his stance, if a player wanted to go to another club - even after his contract had ended - that club was able to impose a transfer fee that the new club had to pay. He actually sat out the '69 season - the year Balmain won the Grand Final. He said it was the only time he actually cried due to anything related to footy. Every player that has played since that time owes Tutty a debt of gratitude.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Wed 29 Aug, 2018 9:29 pm

yeti wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 8:36 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 7:20 pm
magpiecol wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:44 pm
Silentio wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 1:30 pm
From the NRL's website:

What players can earn outside the salary cap:

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.
Dennis Tutty.
Tutty was the residency rule, Hill was the draft.
Dennis Tutty took the NSWRL to court over the Transfer fees clubs put in place on players who had finished their contracts. Prior to his stance, if a player wanted to go to another club - even after his contract had ended - that club was able to impose a transfer fee that the new club had to pay. He actually sat out the '69 season - the year Balmain won the Grand Final. He said it was the only time he actually cried due to anything related to footy. Every player that has played since that time owes Tutty a debt of gratitude.
Ah OK. I thought it was to do with residency as well. I.e. you could not play for another area unless the area you resided released you. Seems sort of what you're talking about in a roundabout way. Unless where you're resided just happened to be who you generally played for back in the day.
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Post by weststigers » Thu 30 Aug, 2018 12:11 am

Silentio wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 1:30 pm
From the NRL's website:

What players can earn outside the salary cap:

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

It's common knowledge that the clubs doing well have corporate "friends" that will top up a player's salary. No amount of policing or penalties will level the playing field as long as this happens.

The best we could hope for is a draft, but Terry Hill ruined the chances of that back in the 90s.
Wow...

Club says “no room on the jersey for sponsorship, but why not have a chat with x player. They might be interested and you’ll get your brand up on the big screen every time they run into the field”

The sponsor isn’t associated with the club, so it’s a free reign!

Smaller sponsers with no naming rights would lap this up.

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Post by weststigers » Thu 30 Aug, 2018 12:17 am

2041 wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 5:26 pm
weststigers wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 11:29 am

2. PLAYERS
  • Fines up to $100,000 or up to the breach amount
  • Suspension of up to 3 months
  • Cancellation of contract and must play with another club
I'm not a contract lawyer, but I'm guessing putting financial penalties on players might be hard to do. The clubs are the ones that have the salary cap agreement with the competition, and it would be hard to argue that it's a player's responsibility to ensure that their employer is compliant with that agreement. I'm sure there have been players that "know" their top-up payments are dodgy, especially when you're talking about literal brown envelopes full of cash, but again it's not the players that have the responsibility for the way a club runs its business.

In addition, outside of the cap there's nothing actually illegal about players receiving payments from third parties (assuming they declare them for tax and so forth - and even that would between the player, his accountant and the ATO, nothing to do with the NRL). If Nick Politis's mates want to take James Tedesco golfing and chuck him $20,000 for his time, that's not an issue so far as the law is concerned. That puts the comp in very dubious legal territory when it comes to penalising players because there would be all sorts of issues around restraint of trade, unfair dismissal and so forth.

I'm also guessing the NRL is very cautious about punishing players for this sort of stuff anyway, especially given the big cap-breach scandals started when there was a very live threat from the UK, rugby etc. The threat of losing your livelihood because you've taken a few extra quid here and there would be a pretty big incentive to sign for a rival comp or code.
If that was the case, I’d argue that salary cap rorting is on par with match fixing.

It’s about the integrity of sport in this country and should be covered under the same laws as match fixing laws.

Fines, contract cancellations and criminal proceedings should not be off the table.

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Post by weststigers » Thu 30 Aug, 2018 12:21 am

Elderslie Tiger wrote:
Wed 29 Aug, 2018 4:07 pm
Why cant the NRL introduce a system along the lines of Super Coach or a points rated system if a players value increases during the year he stays on his original value until his contract expires if he wishes to opt out of his contract the present value kicks in could stop the current situation were players are kept on book figures proped up by TPA s a committee could be formed to assess player values with no input from the players club.
I think what would flush out the hidden payments is if the NRL enforced a rule where:

* Players must go to the highest bidding club.

Loyalty would be dead, but the rorting would stop.

Perhaps put salary cap concessions in place for each year a player stays with the club to avoid a merry-go-round each year.

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