What Needs to Be Done

tigerbenji
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Re: What Needs to Be Done

Unread post by tigerbenji » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 7:24 am

Goose & Happy well said. I think with our game against the Raiders i would put Austin @ 5/8 & give Nofo an extra week off & bring up Koro & see how he goes. Also would it be worth giving Moses a run off the Bench?.


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Unread post by bigsiro » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 9:53 am

happy tiger wrote: BigSiro I will ask you the same question I have asked every other person that has brought up the Lawrence scenario

Without tearing the backline apart three weeks before the toughest run we have all season (look at who we play from round 17-23) who would you bring in who is better than Lawrence is at his normal level ??
Firstly, Lawrence hasn't been at his 'normal level' for years. Secondly, I am not looking to tear the backline apart. There is a big push on this forum for Koro who is brilliant in attack but defensively frail. Then again Lawrence has no pace and hasn't exactly been Mark McGaw out there.
Thus, I don't think there is much support for your argument for keeping Lawrence in simply to accommodate the current backline shape. He has to regain form in the lower grades and while he does I am content to leave the backline permutation up to Potter.

Our next game against Canberra is a perfect opportunity to blood a refreshing looking backline. Don't you think it's at least worth a try?
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Unread post by Newtown » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 10:37 am

All the WT supporters can do is hope that Potter has an inspiration of sense before he makes his selections next week. If not there is nothing much short of boycotting the match at Campbelltown that the supporters can do..

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Unread post by happy tiger » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 11:22 am

bigsiro wrote:
happy tiger wrote: BigSiro I will ask you the same question I have asked every other person that has brought up the Lawrence scenario

Without tearing the backline apart three weeks before the toughest run we have all season (look at who we play from round 17-23) who would you bring in who is better than Lawrence is at his normal level ??
Firstly, Lawrence hasn't been at his 'normal level' for years. Secondly, I am not looking to tear the backline apart. There is a big push on this forum for Koro who is brilliant in attack but defensively frail. Then again Lawrence has no pace and hasn't exactly been Mark McGaw out there.
Thus, I don't think there is much support for your argument for keeping Lawrence in simply to accommodate the current backline shape. He has to regain form in the lower grades and while he does I am content to leave the backline permutation up to Potter.

Our next game against Canberra is a perfect opportunity to blood a refreshing looking backline. Don't you think it's at least worth a try?
To accommodate Koroibete you have to do this

Koroibete plays left side so you have to move Richards from left to right side

Then you are I'm guessing either going to move Nofoaluma or Simona to centre So you have to move either from right to left and then shift Nofoaluma to centre as well

So you would have to do either

Tedesco
Koroibete left
Simona left
Nofoaluma right
Richards right

That four changes and I'm guessing you want Anasta gone so that's five changes to the backline

Or
Tedesco
Koroibete Left
Nofoaluma Left
Simona
Richards

add your new 6 is 5 changes

So my next question is this , how long do you think it will take the side to get used to all these changes ??

And before you say Koroibete can play right, which he can , he has many more defensive issues on this side for some reason

As I said we have our toughest part of the draw starting in 3 weeks

Also our hooker who is the key to all this will be gone for at least two weeks of that three weeks

So all the issues this will cause

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Unread post by alexaki » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 11:40 am

happy tiger wrote:
bigsiro wrote:
happy tiger wrote: BigSiro I will ask you the same question I have asked every other person that has brought up the Lawrence scenario

Without tearing the backline apart three weeks before the toughest run we have all season (look at who we play from round 17-23) who would you bring in who is better than Lawrence is at his normal level ??
Firstly, Lawrence hasn't been at his 'normal level' for years. Secondly, I am not looking to tear the backline apart. There is a big push on this forum for Koro who is brilliant in attack but defensively frail. Then again Lawrence has no pace and hasn't exactly been Mark McGaw out there.
Thus, I don't think there is much support for your argument for keeping Lawrence in simply to accommodate the current backline shape. He has to regain form in the lower grades and while he does I am content to leave the backline permutation up to Potter.

Our next game against Canberra is a perfect opportunity to blood a refreshing looking backline. Don't you think it's at least worth a try?
To accommodate Koroibete you have to do this

Koroibete plays left side so you have to move Richards from left to right side

Then you are I'm guessing either going to move Nofoaluma or Simona to centre So you have to move either from right to left and then shift Nofoaluma to centre as well

So you would have to do either

Tedesco
Koroibete left
Simona left
Nofoaluma right
Richards right

That four changes and I'm guessing you want Anasta gone so that's five changes to the backline

Or
Tedesco
Koroibete Left
Nofoaluma Left
Simona
Richards

add your new 6 is 5 changes

So my next question is this , how long do you think it will take the side to get used to all these changes ??

And before you say Koroibete can play right, which he can , he has many more defensive issues on this side for some reason

As I said we have our toughest part of the draw starting in 3 weeks

Also our hooker who is the key to all this will be gone for at least two weeks of that three weeks

So all the issues this will cause
Excellent insight Happy....I didn't know Koro's preferred side is left...that being the case perhaps it explains why we haven't seen Koro in the NRL side this year...Richards is holding his own on the left side.


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Unread post by happy tiger » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:46 pm

Attack wise Alexaki he seems to be a bit better right side , but defensively he seems to be better on the left

Personally (unlike many on here ) I place far more importance on defence than I do on attack

If you think back to the Parra game when he scores 4 tries and smashes Sandow he was left side

I still think defensively his issues all started when he started getting penalised for going for shoulder charges when he would come screaming out of the line and belt blokes

He lost a lot of confidence defensively about the same time this began happening

Could be coincidental , but it seems to make some sense imo

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Unread post by Black'n'White » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 3:57 pm

Mccarry wrote:
Black'n'White wrote:goose, please enlighten me as to how this pathetic effort is a malfunction of the system, rather than a player not knowing when to rush up and when to hold the line. He managed to make a decision where he literally took himself out of the play, forcing his winger to react in turn. He didnt even get near the ball.
[img]https://i.imgflip.com/9lwx2.gif[/img]

now I have learnt how to make those gifs, this debate wont even need words.
Wow, BnW your video shows gooses point. Watch the inside defender wander in towards the inside player . Also count the existing overlap.

At that point Lawrence's protocol is go in as well.

At the coaches night last week they pin pointed Joel Reddy as one who doesn't go inside when his inside defender does. Payten pointed out that it creates a hole . He explained that the Tigers protocol is to go in when your inside defender goes in.

The error in that defensive line was actually either a tackle ago where the overlap was created, or the misread on the inside.

Thank for the video, it will help lots of people get of our back lines 'backs' about going in.

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If what you took from Tods explaination is that umbrella defence is in any way effective when the centre pushes up in line with the offence after the ball is a player outside him, then I do not know how to break it down for you in any way you could understand it.

The concept is to bring in the effective width of the attack, to cover for a compressed central defence. In the gif, Lawrence was behind the ball rather than in front of it, so all he effectively did was exaggerate the overlap by taking himself out of the equation. The player Pat hit, was almost directly in front of where Chris was before he shot in way too late...

At that distance from the line, it was hit time, not structure time... he just plain ole got it all wrong.

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Unread post by happy tiger » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 4:13 pm

Depends why the centre moves up for BnW

Sometimes you will move slightly out of the line to prevent the ball runner trying to get outside of his defender and then straightening to create the overlap

Probably the most memorable situation where the centre should of moved up and class down a ball runner that most of us would remember wold be Daniels Fitzhenry's try in the GF

Prince's gets on the outside of his man and then straightens the attack creating the overlap

If the centre sees what Prince is attempting he moves slightly out of the line to cause Prince to try and straighten earlier or to the pass which the centre is hoping for because it goes back to man on man and the opposing centre won't have time to then aim for the centres outside shoulder and the half would then be at risk of throwing a hospital ball

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Unread post by Black'n'White » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 4:29 pm

This is about a gif back a page happy... I do understand exactly what you are saying though, a compressed central defence will always leave our centres and wingers exposed a few times a game, no problem there i agree, the instance in the gif was a perfect example. Exactly as you suggest the correct move would to be apply pressure to the ball reciever/ playmaker, tighten the screws on them and see if you can force the error with the numbers not in your favour.

Go back and look at the gif for me mate, and tell me if Chris' decision that play makes absolutely any sense at all, and i will leave it alone from here out.

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Unread post by Goose » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 6:07 pm

Really??
They have worked us into a 5 on 3 plus a sweep (or there abouts).
He holds for the lead runner as he has too given that first man is forced in, he than pushes on the out ball.
Richards makes the classic up and in play.

That is a terribly difficult situation to defend, and if we were attacking you'd want to score more often than not,

If pushes straight up there is an inside hole (and an easier try)

The situation that SOuths created is exactly what they are trying to set up.

What would you suggest he do in that situation??

BTW Im not suggesting he has not made errors in defense this year, what Im saying is that the up and in system will see wingers and centres making errors, no matter who is in the spot. .

We have seen a number of similar incidents on the other side also.

But they have also shut alot down, and do it every week. Even when they seem to come up and get no one, it may not be the error of the centre or winger.

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Unread post by happy tiger » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 6:18 pm

Black'n'White wrote:This is about a gif back a page happy... I do understand exactly what you are saying though, a compressed central defence will always leave our centres and wingers exposed a few times a game, no problem there i agree, the instance in the gif was a perfect example. Exactly as you suggest the correct move would to be apply pressure to the ball reciever/ playmaker, tighten the screws on them and see if you can force the error with the numbers not in your favour.

Go back and look at the gif for me mate, and tell me if Chris' decision that play makes absolutely any sense at all, and i will leave it alone from here out.
Just help me with one thing because I'm having a mental blank

Was it raining on the Friday Night ,because that changes every thing again if it was ??

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Unread post by stevied » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 6:44 pm

Hey, Happy Tiger, you're right - it was 4 tries Koro scored in one of his first matches! That game showcased the attacking talent he has. The flair is still there and he is definitely in the same type of form. This is why room has to be made for him and this might necessitate Nofa being tried at centre. I disagree with people on the 'Team v Canberra' thread who suggested all will be resolved when Farah, Woods and Gavet come back. True - Gavet will provide valuable aggression and go forward but even though Farah and Woods are our best players, we were already struggling with them in the team, the Newcastle game being one example. We need more variety in our attack and we need it in the backs. I agree with those who said The Tigers had exceeded expectations this year and had done well to be in the eight but I also agree that the Canberra game provides the perfect opportunity to experiment and provide more scoring opportunities. Farah and Woods should be available after Origin and they can guide and encourage Koro and Moses. I stand by my suggestions for team changes. Moses has foot work, is fast and possesses an excellent kicking game that will take pressure off Brooks and Farah. I've watched him in the Holden and NSW Cup teams and he doesn't lack the confidence to talk and direct nor the technique to make tackles. Again, I urge Potter to be proactive and make the bold decisions!

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Unread post by happy tiger » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 6:49 pm

But the point is that was on the left side and you can't even think about dropping Richards

Koroibete also played left side in the RLWC and his defence seemed slightly better

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Unread post by tig_prmz » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 6:50 pm

i dont doubt lawrence's decision making as others but what i do doubt is when he knows he's beaten, he doesnt make enough effort to go back and fix it. secondly, as seen in that gif, he didnt move in with any agression. when you know you are a man short, you charge up and smash the guy you think willl get the ball- instead lawry just bear hugged him.

this has happened far too often.
My Round 1 Team 2018

1. lolo 2. noffa 3. suli 4. milne 5. fonua
6. reynolds 7. brooks
8. packer 9. ET 10. Twal
11. McQuen 12. Lawrence 13. Eiso
14. Matulino 15. McIllwrick 16. Sue 17. Aloiai
18. Marsters 19. Benji 20. Grant 21. K Naiqama
Next: Liddle, MCK, Felise, MWZ, Thompson, Rochow, Gamble

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Unread post by happy tiger » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 7:22 pm

Black'n'White wrote:This is about a gif back a page happy... I do understand exactly what you are saying though, a compressed central defence will always leave our centres and wingers exposed a few times a game, no problem there i agree, the instance in the gif was a perfect example. Exactly as you suggest the correct move would to be apply pressure to the ball reciever/ playmaker, tighten the screws on them and see if you can force the error with the numbers not in your favour.

Go back and look at the gif for me mate, and tell me if Chris' decision that play makes absolutely any sense at all, and i will leave it alone from here out.
My opinion , tough one BnW

The two decoys do a great job of holding Lawrence to them

Either way in that situation he is screwed

The inside defenders needed to show some urgency , but that can be an issue when you have done the amount of defence they had done and down by 16 in the 78th minute

If he slides off early and they hit the decoy he is made to look foolish as he will be tackling fresh air

And as you see his actions in this situation it went pear shaped

I haven't played the game under the new obstruction rules , but seeing that I know how they work my first thought was slide off early and with the decoys their would be a fair chance that someone would be obstructed as they both stop in the line and then hope that if I missed inside that Teddy was covering the inside runner or decoy or the ball player if he shows and goes

Even then with a bit of dew around the Rabbitohs should of scored with a two on two with that much room to work with

Just my opinion

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Unread post by Black'n'White » Tue 17 Jun, 2014 7:59 pm

Thankyou... I was with him jockeying Burgess but then he lost me... rushing into space doesnt make any sense. The second decoy gets the ball he has space behind Lawrence, reciever gets the ball and unless Pat hits has a free run on his outside and is in as well, Pat hits him and 2 men and only grass exists.

I dont even think it was defendable, unless perfect situation unravelled for us... it wasnt an enviable position to be in, but out of all the decisions lawrence could have made, I am dumbfounded running into a hole was even part of his thought process. I wouldnt be on him as harshly if he picked a wrong man but hit one... I havent harped on him about his bomb attempt...

I have dropped this now even though I would be entertained baiting anyone who thinks he bought a dummy run from casper the ghost.

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Unread post by Goose » Wed 18 Jun, 2014 1:08 pm

Black'n'White wrote:Thankyou... I was with him jockeying Burgess but then he lost me... rushing into space doesnt make any sense. The second decoy gets the ball he has space behind Lawrence, reciever gets the ball and unless Pat hits has a free run on his outside and is in as well, Pat hits him and 2 men and only grass exists.

I dont even think it was defendable, unless perfect situation unravelled for us... it wasnt an enviable position to be in, but out of all the decisions lawrence could have made, I am dumbfounded running into a hole was even part of his thought process. I wouldnt be on him as harshly if he picked a wrong man but hit one... I havent harped on him about his bomb attempt...

I have dropped this now even though I would be entertained baiting anyone who thinks he bought a dummy run from casper the ghost.
The way it could have been stopped was if Richards had taken the player one wider and forced the guy he did take to hit a cut out face ball..... That said, it was very tough once Lawrence is forced to hold to know that he is going to get to the next guy (which he did, but not stop the pass).

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Unread post by barra » Wed 18 Jun, 2014 4:10 pm

happy tiger wrote:
I haven't played the game under the new obstruction rules , but seeing that I know how they work my first thought was slide off early and with the decoys their would be a fair chance that someone would be obstructed as they both stop in the line and then hope that if I missed inside that Teddy was covering the inside runner or decoy or the ball player if he shows and goes
Yep. I think that would have been the right choice, with those inside guys sliding too.

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