Immaturity costs us big time...

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Cosimo_Zaretti
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Re: Immaturity costs us big time...

Post by Cosimo_Zaretti » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 6:54 pm

NT Tiger wrote:There will always be a chicken that says "the sky is falling", I'm happy to be the turkey and be patient.
Yep, we're getting the prophecies of doom while we're still in the 8.


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Post by Russell » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 7:36 pm

Cosimo_Zaretti wrote:
TrueTiger wrote:
The time and money spent on these two could be spent elsewhere if you want to win something soon,
And where could that money be better spent? If you could actually solve that puzzle you'd run a successful football club. In reality it's pretty hard to just buy yourself a working long term halves pairing.

You could throw a million bucks a season at a young, in form half like Foran who no longer fits into a more successful team's cap. Then you try to budget another 24 players and pray you got the balance right.

You could recruit the drunks, thugs, party animals, sex offenders, twitter trolls and wife beaters that other teams have cut loose cheap. These guys can win premierships for a team that can keep them out of trouble (or at least off social media). The Tigers have been keen to put the days of Field, McGuiness and Hopoate behind them, showing no interest in the likes of Todd Carney or Blake Ferguson.

You could bring up hacks from NSW cup who have the experience to sort of play the role, even if they don't set the world on fire. They're in their mid 20's, have plenty of match fitness, know the position well and probably played a few NRL games with another club before being found surplus to requirements. Josh Drinkwater has already been through the whole cycle, including a stint in the ESL, and he's only 22.

You could grab a 30 something former rep player who's run his course at another club. These are blokes who played for their state and their country, trouble is it was in 2006. Shopping for them is a bit like buying a second hand car, there's good value out there, but it's a gamble. The Tigers passed on Luke Lewis at the same time they bought Braith Anasta. Luke Lewis was playing origin while Anasta was injured on the sidelines on his way to a full time media gig. The Tigers decision could just as easily gone the other way.

Or you could back the best talent from your development system and see what happens. We're at 50% win/loss with the youngest halves pairing in the comp. We're hardly in crisis. This side will improve, and if we don't have a cascade of injuries we should play finals footy this year.
Absolutely well said - agree totally.

Everyone said over the off season - yes be patient with them - that is until you have to be patient with them.

Can't be bothered going through this and trying to stick up for our future again.
I'll just be patient for at least another year, maybe 2 if needed.

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Post by Geo. » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 7:44 pm

happy tiger wrote:I don't know what people expect from blokes with less than 30 games of NRL when we get towelled up in the forwards ,we lose the ruck and we don't have a 50/50 split of the ball ??

We could of had Lewis and Johns as our halves and still lost
Close ....I would have gone with Sterling & Kenny myself.....How are Manly going with DCE & Foran ATM....????

The palava that Brooks and Moses are copping on here lately is reaching Fitzy proportions...
Wests Tigers don't need a Coach.. The playing group has taken over..
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Post by TrueTiger » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 7:53 pm

Russ,and if the Rorters or Manly offer big money to them and they go,or heaven forbid another Teddy type injury,then what do we do, wait for the next generation to come along and go through the same thing.....

Our game is a big business,it's a gamble you win some you lose some,but most of all you cut your losses and hope you made the right choice..The way Brooks and Moses are going nobody really knows what they are going to produce or even make it to the next level..this is the gamble,if I had my money on a deadset favourite like these two are supposed to be then I would want a bloody good run for my money....

Russ,Iam quite happy to watch the way they go in the next few rounds,and I certainly hope they show me some of the reputed talent they have as playmakers....
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Post by turnstyle » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 8:22 pm

TrueTiger wrote:Turnstyle,yes we should wait and be patient,however I would have liked to see a bit more of the halves that the hype was about,they both need a lot of time and all I can say is ..are we prepared to wait for however long it takes to show the playmaker skills they have been hyped up to have????...

i understand your point TT, and agree that it can be hard to see the team not doing as well as we'd hope they would be doing right now.

the big question, that only time can answer, is how long do you give the young guys to become real assets?! i guess i have just taken a less concerned viewpoint of it and know there is nothing we can do but wait until the decision makers decide this!

to get back to another point (i think you made? sorry if im wrong...), when the likes of brooks, moses and tedesco were up for renewal, there would have been an uproar on here about the club's retention policies if they were allowed to leave.

it is almost a crapshoot, but rather than try to buy an established player, which would take up a lot of cap space and cripple the team if that player were to be injured, they have chosen to go with the gamble - and nothing is ever guaranteed - of placing an enormous amount of faith (and pressure on!) the young guys who were at the club already.

who knows what the outcome will be?! maybe in a few years' time we are all sitting here remembering the mistake of investing so heavily in these young untried at NRL guys? maybe we will all be sitting here thanking god the club chose to stick with them?

the only time i have really been annoyed was after the bulldogs game they lost a few weeks back. imo there is no excuse whatsoever for losing that one, young guys or not. but as i said, at this stage im quite satisfied with how they are going.

unfortunately, i dont see this season as one they will be a serious contender, and have written any realistic chances of that off long ago.

like you, as well im sure many others, it would be great to see a bit more of what the club is predicting, as potential is only ever really worth what it turns out to be. guess well just have to wait and see....
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Post by cochise » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 8:53 pm

I actually can not believe this thread exists, but I'm always surprised by the lack of football knowledge of some fans. We are playing with two 20 year old halves here, Andrew Johns took years to develop into the player he became. In an ideal world these 2 players would have come along a couple of years apart allowing them to be partnered with a more experienced partner. We do not have that luxury but these 2 will develop into a strong combination but they need a lot of support from the coaching staff to develop because they don't have that experienced partner to guide them.

The kicking game is most definately the gameplan the players have been asked to follow, Brooks has one of the best long kicking games I have seen but he is being told to put up the midfield bombs. JT is trying to get a situation where our defensive line is set and at the returner as he catches the ball.

Also talking about our game plan it is a very simple gameplan. We are trying to move the ball through our forwards into the oppositions 20, when we reach the 20 we will take a settler to around centre field. We will then attack on either side through the use of second man plays where we either hit the 2nd man, works best when the 2nd man is Teddy as he is our best ball player atm, or hit the lead runner, usually Sirro or lawrance with a short ball. This is the extent of our gameplan at this stage of the season but it will expand as the season progresses

Anyway sorry for the novel, give these guys time and they will develop, it may take a little longer than we would like because they are lacking the experience partner to guide them, but there are no shortage of halves in our coaching ranks so they will get there in time and we will challenge for the premiership with these 2 players guiding us.

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Post by Russell » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 9:16 pm

TrueTiger wrote:Russ,and if the Rorters or Manly offer big money to them and they go,or heaven forbid another Teddy type injury,then what do we do, wait for the next generation to come along and go through the same thing.....

Our game is a big business,it's a gamble you win some you lose some,but most of all you cut your losses and hope you made the right choice..The way Brooks and Moses are going nobody really knows what they are going to produce or even make it to the next level..this is the gamble,if I had my money on a deadset favourite like these two are supposed to be then I would want a bloody good run for my money....

Russ,Iam quite happy to watch the way they go in the next few rounds,and I certainly hope they show me some of the reputed talent they have as playmakers....
TT - understand what you are saying but...

If the club was only going to give them what we have had and a few more rounds - then we should get rid of them to the highest bidder. It is going to take a lot longer than 8 or 9 rounds before you/we see what everyone is expecting. Especially seeing that JT won't let them do their thing yet.

He is trying to teach them and the team - defence, cut out mistakes, don't give away penalties etc.
JT has not got to attack lessons yet. How much can guys in their early twenties absorb? Not much when there is so much to learn.

So why don't all the dissatisfied people on here get stuck into JT for the halves not taking on the line, not chip kicking etc. It is his game plan, they are only following orders.

I know you wear your heart on your sleeve where the Wests Tigers are concerned TT but I have read that you played the game yourself and I'm sure as you see glimses, you will be prepared to cut them more slack as the games roll by.

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Post by TrueTiger » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 9:25 pm

Russell wrote:
TrueTiger wrote:Russ,and if the Rorters or Manly offer big money to them and they go,or heaven forbid another Teddy type injury,then what do we do, wait for the next generation to come along and go through the same thing.....

Our game is a big business,it's a gamble you win some you lose some,but most of all you cut your losses and hope you made the right choice..The way Brooks and Moses are going nobody really knows what they are going to produce or even make it to the next level..this is the gamble,if I had my money on a deadset favourite like these two are supposed to be then I would want a bloody good run for my money....

Russ,Iam quite happy to watch the way they go in the next few rounds,and I certainly hope they show me some of the reputed talent they have as playmakers....
TT - understand what you are saying but...

If the club was only going to give them what we have had and a few more rounds - then we should get rid of them to the highest bidder. It is going to take a lot longer than 8 or 9 rounds before you/we see what everyone is expecting. Especially seeing that JT won't let them do their thing yet.

He is trying to teach them and the team - defence, cut out mistakes, don't give away penalties etc.
JT has not got to attack lessons yet. How much can guys in their early twenties absorb? Not much when there is so much to learn.

So why don't all the dissatisfied people on here get stuck into JT for the halves not taking on the line, not chip kicking etc. It is his game plan, they are only following orders.

I know you wear your heart on your sleeve where the Wests Tigers are concerned TT but I have read that you played the game yourself and I'm sure as you see glimses, you will be prepared to cut them more slack as the games roll by.


Russ,that's what I like about you,sensible reasoning,I may have gone off a bit half cocked,not because I wanted to bag the young guys as such,but I like many probably had a very high expectation of things this year because of the hype surrounding our two halves....after your reasoning to me I will endeavour to take each game as it comes and only have a small amount of expectation of the halves while they are still learning.....thank you Russ ..cheers...
You may see me struggle...but you will never see me quit... :D

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Post by goldcoast tiger » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 9:25 pm

stryker wrote:They strolled over a couple of times last night.
Yep I agree with that, but they would have scored two or three tries in that first quarter if it was our old defence. I'm not saying that we are a steel wall yet, but we've been a lot better than we used to be.

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Post by tig4ever » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 9:29 pm

cochise wrote:I actually can not believe this thread exists, but I'm always surprised by the lack of football knowledge of some fans. We are playing with two 20 year old halves here, Andrew Johns took years to develop into the player he became. In an ideal world these 2 players would have come along a couple of years apart allowing them to be partnered with a more experienced partner. We do not have that luxury but these 2 will develop into a strong combination but they need a lot of support from the coaching staff to develop because they don't have that experienced partner to guide them.

The kicking game is most definately the gameplan the players have been asked to follow, Brooks has one of the best long kicking games I have seen but he is being told to put up the midfield bombs. JT is trying to get a situation where our defensive line is set and at the returner as he catches the ball.

Also talking about our game plan it is a very simple gameplan. We are trying to move the ball through our forwards into the oppositions 20, when we reach the 20 we will take a settler to around centre field. We will then attack on either side through the use of second man plays where we either hit the 2nd man, works best when the 2nd man is Teddy as he is our best ball player atm, or hit the lead runner, usually Sirro or lawrance with a short ball. This is the extent of our gameplan at this stage of the season but it will expand as the season progresses

Anyway sorry for the novel, give these guys time and they will develop, it may take a little longer than we would like because they are lacking the experience partner to guide them, but there are no shortage of halves in our coaching ranks so they will get there in time and we will challenge for the premiership with these 2 players guiding us.
Agree 100% Cochise. This this thread is ridiculous. We should be happy we are blessed with so many great young players. Like so many before them, it will take a little time & we should just be patient & let them develop.

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Post by goldcoast tiger » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 9:41 pm

Cosimo_Zaretti wrote:
NT Tiger wrote:There will always be a chicken that says "the sky is falling", I'm happy to be the turkey and be patient.
Yep, we're getting the prophecies of doom while we're still in the 8.
Don't you think you're exagerating just a little , I'm not saying to can them. Just that it'd be a help to the team if they ran the ball themselves a bit. Last night the Warriors didnt have to be that tight on them and just concentrated on the runners.
And I think the club has maybe made it harder on them both , by putting them in at the same time.
Nothing would make me happier than to see them crack it, but it's just my opinion that at the moment they are struggling.
It is a forum and we all have opinions , that's just mine.

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Post by cochise » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 9:44 pm

goldcoast tiger wrote:
Cosimo_Zaretti wrote:
NT Tiger wrote:There will always be a chicken that says "the sky is falling", I'm happy to be the turkey and be patient.
Yep, we're getting the prophecies of doom while we're still in the 8.
Don't you think you're exagerating just a little , I'm not saying to can them. Just that it'd be a help to the team if they ran the ball themselves a bit. Last night the Warriors didnt have to be that tight on them and just concentrated on the runners.
And I think the club has maybe made it harder on them both , by putting them in at the same time.
Nothing would make me happier than to see them crack it, but it's just my opinion that at the moment they are struggling.
It is a forum and we all have opinions , that's just mine.
We don't really have any options but to have them both playing together, Brooks is the standout so far so we would need an experienced 5/8th to partner him. We don't have one!

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Post by Russell » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 9:44 pm

TrueTiger wrote:
Russell wrote:
TrueTiger wrote:Russ,and if the Rorters or Manly offer big money to them and they go,or heaven forbid another Teddy type injury,then what do we do, wait for the next generation to come along and go through the same thing.....

Our game is a big business,it's a gamble you win some you lose some,but most of all you cut your losses and hope you made the right choice..The way Brooks and Moses are going nobody really knows what they are going to produce or even make it to the next level..this is the gamble,if I had my money on a deadset favourite like these two are supposed to be then I would want a bloody good run for my money....

Russ,Iam quite happy to watch the way they go in the next few rounds,and I certainly hope they show me some of the reputed talent they have as playmakers....
TT - understand what you are saying but...

If the club was only going to give them what we have had and a few more rounds - then we should get rid of them to the highest bidder. It is going to take a lot longer than 8 or 9 rounds before you/we see what everyone is expecting. Especially seeing that JT won't let them do their thing yet.

He is trying to teach them and the team - defence, cut out mistakes, don't give away penalties etc.
JT has not got to attack lessons yet. How much can guys in their early twenties absorb? Not much when there is so much to learn.

So why don't all the dissatisfied people on here get stuck into JT for the halves not taking on the line, not chip kicking etc. It is his game plan, they are only following orders.

I know you wear your heart on your sleeve where the Wests Tigers are concerned TT but I have read that you played the game yourself and I'm sure as you see glimses, you will be prepared to cut them more slack as the games roll by.


Russ,that's what I like about you,sensible reasoning,I may have gone off a bit half cocked,not because I wanted to bag the young guys as such,but I like many probably had a very high expectation of things this year because of the hype surrounding our two halves....after your reasoning to me I will endeavour to take each game as it comes and only have a small amount of expectation of the halves while they are still learning.....thank you Russ ..cheers...
Good onya TT - I'm sure you'll enjoy the games more if you keep the frustration level down.

Thanks for the - Thanks TT

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Post by cochise » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 10:02 pm

My advice to anyone in a panic over where we finish this year is to view this years success on not where we finish on the ladder, we will be around midfield, but on how well our guys develop. Go to the games and look for enhancements in the games of players like Brooks, Moses, Tedesco, Sironen, Sue, Ava, Lovett, Naiqama, etc. These players are the future of our club and some will progress some will stay the same and some will regress. Look at the games with an open mind and don't prejudge on what you expect to see from a 5 year 1st grade veteran, you will see little things all these players are adding to their game on a weekly basis.

Have a look at Sirro, a lot of people were writing him off last year and this year he is looking strong, powerful and damaging almost everytime he touches the ball. He will have a break out game in the next couple of months where he will be almost unstoppable.

About round 20 put your head up from looking at the development of our players and see where we are sitting on the ladder, if we are still in the bottom half of the 8 awesome, maybe then get excited about finals footy.

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Post by goldcoast tiger » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 10:07 pm

cochise wrote:I actually can not believe this thread exists, but I'm always surprised by the lack of football knowledge of some fans. We are playing with two 20 year old halves here, Andrew Johns took years to develop into the player he became. In an ideal world these 2 players would have come along a couple of years apart allowing them to be partnered with a more experienced partner. We do not have that luxury but these 2 will develop into a strong combination but they need a lot of support from the coaching staff to develop because they don't have that experienced partner to guide them.

The kicking game is most definately the gameplan the players have been asked to follow, Brooks has one of the best long kicking games I have seen but he is being told to put up the midfield bombs. JT is trying to get a situation where our defensive line is set and at the returner as he catches the ball.

Also talking about our game plan it is a very simple gameplan. We are trying to move the ball through our forwards into the oppositions 20, when we reach the 20 we will take a settler to around centre field. We will then attack on either side through the use of second man plays where we either hit the 2nd man, works best when the 2nd man is Teddy as he is our best ball player atm, or hit the lead runner, usually Sirro or lawrance with a short ball. This is the extent of our gameplan at this stage of the season but it will expand as the season progresses

Anyway sorry for the novel, give these guys time and they will develop, it may take a little longer than we would like because they are lacking the experience partner to guide them, but there are no shortage of halves in our coaching ranks so they will get there in time and we will challenge for the premiership with these 2 players guiding us.
I'm always surprised that some people love to imply that their football knowledge is so much better than others on here.
But you are right about the comparisons with Andrew Johns. The two cannot be compared as Johns had the perfect entry into the top grade . Off the bench to get him used to it, and then experienced players around him for quite awhile.
IM certainly not death riding either of them , but I'm just saying what I see, and I'm hoping that these kids futures will not be harmed because of the way they have been brought in .

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Post by guyofthetiger » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 10:16 pm

turnstyle wrote:ha ha... i have changed my perspective on this whole issue as the season gets going. before the season began i had low expectations and just wanted to see the young guys improve over the course of it.
then i was critical of moses doing nothing.

now im actually quite satisfied the team is 3-3! add to that a good showing against souths, and a loss to the dogs they should never have lost, and theyre not going so badly!

i like that the club is showing conviction in sticking to what has been determined as the path to take. im happy with farah taking a less dominant role, moses is starting to show glimpses of what can be (one time last night i particularly liked a play he backed up...farahs break maybe?) and brooks hasnt done anything to get me too concerned about him although he seems to be a little behind where i would have thought hed be at this stage.

still, i think the buzzword for 2015 is patience. give the team at least half a season and lets take another look then.

Couldn't agree more.

Having said that TrueTiger, understand your concern.

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Post by guyofthetiger » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 10:20 pm

tig4ever wrote:
TrueTiger wrote:If you guys and girls on the forum think Brooks and Moses will win us anything within the next five years think again...

Both are highly reputed playmakers on big money and yet failed to get us a win tonight when it was a winnable game for us.....

Kicks down the throat of the opposition,missed takles poor reads for last play options and the list goes on...

Brooks and Moses....inexperienced,imature,and most of all scared..welcome to the big league,it's good to be fantastic in your own age group but now they get run over,bashed and bruised,with little to offer in return..

The time and money spent on these two could be spent elsewhere if you want to win something soon,otherwise be happy to lose week in week out until they get enough experience, unless of course they get hurt and aren't seen for months.....

Games aren't won on reputation alone....if Tapau,Halitau,Woods,Simona and co weren't there tonight we would have 50 put on us....little glimpses of brilliance aren't enough to play week in week out in the NRL .....say what you like about me but this is my opinion and I will stick to it until I see an enormous improvement in these two.... :roll:
True Tiger, one word for you…..Wanker!!!


I'm sure mods have chopped posts or posters out for less

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Post by cochise » Sun 12 Apr, 2015 10:30 pm

goldcoast tiger wrote:
cochise wrote:I actually can not believe this thread exists, but I'm always surprised by the lack of football knowledge of some fans. We are playing with two 20 year old halves here, Andrew Johns took years to develop into the player he became. In an ideal world these 2 players would have come along a couple of years apart allowing them to be partnered with a more experienced partner. We do not have that luxury but these 2 will develop into a strong combination but they need a lot of support from the coaching staff to develop because they don't have that experienced partner to guide them.

The kicking game is most definately the gameplan the players have been asked to follow, Brooks has one of the best long kicking games I have seen but he is being told to put up the midfield bombs. JT is trying to get a situation where our defensive line is set and at the returner as he catches the ball.

Also talking about our game plan it is a very simple gameplan. We are trying to move the ball through our forwards into the oppositions 20, when we reach the 20 we will take a settler to around centre field. We will then attack on either side through the use of second man plays where we either hit the 2nd man, works best when the 2nd man is Teddy as he is our best ball player atm, or hit the lead runner, usually Sirro or lawrance with a short ball. This is the extent of our gameplan at this stage of the season but it will expand as the season progresses

Anyway sorry for the novel, give these guys time and they will develop, it may take a little longer than we would like because they are lacking the experience partner to guide them, but there are no shortage of halves in our coaching ranks so they will get there in time and we will challenge for the premiership with these 2 players guiding us.
I'm always surprised that some people love to imply that their football knowledge is so much better than others on here.
But you are right about the comparisons with Andrew Johns. The two cannot be compared as Johns had the perfect entry into the top grade . Off the bench to get him used to it, and then experienced players around him for quite awhile.
IM certainly not death riding either of them , but I'm just saying what I see, and I'm hoping that these kids futures will not be harmed because of the way they have been brought in .
I didn't imply it, I stated that some fans have a lack of knowledge about football.

But I do agree that the halves are being brought through in less than an ideal situation, hopefully the highly experienced halves on our coaching staff can guide them through the 1st couple of year. That' what I believe JT is trying to do with the simplified gameplans.

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