surely the halves experiment is over?

clontarfkid
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Re: surely the halves experiment is over?

Post by clontarfkid » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 9:44 pm

pHyR3 wrote:
clontarfkid wrote:
turnstyle wrote:the only thing that really gets to me is something i have banged on about for ages: tackling big guys high up when youre not big yourself!!

i just dont understand it. brooks today tried to tackle some monster high about 7 metres out, got pushed off and the guy scored.

i was never a big guy to play league, and unless i was trying to tie up the ball after a guy was going to score anyway, i always always hit them around the hips/upper thighs. no one can keep going forward if they are laying face first on the turf no matter how big they are!!

as for "experiment"? well, im speechless. obviously sheens has been obliterated from history; now lawrence, fitzhenry at 5/8th, farah and marshall at 7...recruiting jason moodie... now those are experiments dr frankenstein would be proud of!!
Well..."experiment" is defined as conducting a series of tests to learn about something...
NEWSFLASH....the facts are in after 7 rounds....ie Right now the halves combination are uncompetitive at NRL level..and the team is failing
No more testing required
yea fair enough. lets just cancel their contracts tell them to piss off, screw up our salary cap for the next few years again and then cry about how theyre playing SOO with a new club in a few years time while we're bottom 4 again.
Think the issue is right now..at the present juncture..this pairing isnt effective but may be in the future.


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Post by Tigerspirit » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 9:49 pm

GNR4LIFE wrote:
tig_prmz wrote:
GNR4LIFE wrote:Experiment? What experiment? This is what we have. This is the combo the club has invested so much time and effort into, like it or lump it. I can cop Brooks cos he has showed glimpses, Moses on the other hand, well all i'll say about Moses is that i hear the raps people have on him and how he's gonna be a star, then i look at a kid like Jack Bird. Now that right there is a kid who is a star in the making. Idk if its just black, white and orange eyes seeing things in some of these kids that aren't there, or if some people are just genuinely bad judges.
moses has showed glimpses too.. maybe not this year.

what do you mean by bad judges? you think you're a better judge than others who picked moses upon years of watching football? im ok with others seeing or not seeing things in him but it's stupid to call others bad judges when they say a 20 yo aus schoolbout is a good player lol
I didn't bluntly say they were bad judges, and i didn't say my opinion was superior. I saw some glimpses last yr of Moses, but overall he's been average. I do believe however that the amount of hubub over guys like Moses and Sirro has been a little overboard from what i've seen of them.
I agree Sirro is so overrated its pathetic, moses has no attack, lawrence is dead wood, and our second rowers are all nsw cup players

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Post by Newtown » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 9:51 pm

These guys are on contract for at least another couple of years aren't they the same as Moltzen is? Players do get dropped a grade sometime in their career. I don't see why the club should be held to ransom if Brooks, Moses and Lawrence are dropped to reserves. Sandow was dropped by Parramatta and he has come back as a match winner for the club.

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Post by TigerSJ » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 9:55 pm

Firstly, anyone that is seriously considering Moltzen better be talking about my neighbour Shirley Moltzen because she'd certainly make a better NRL player than Tim (honestly you guys, what were you watching during his last few seasons??).

As for Moses... yes, he is taking a while to adjust to NRL but I actually think his D has improved and he certainly doesn't lack courage. As for his attack it seems to me that JT has them nearly always running the ball to the left away from him - Brooks Teddy Simona Richards direction. However, both Moses and Brooks do have average kicking games ATM and their 5th tackle options particularly have no real thought.

Brooks on the other hand is showing some great attacking ability at times - his first 25 mins today was awesome - and he has shown this enough times to warrant some of the praise he gets IMO. His D on the other hand was very poor today and I am sure he'd be a lot more disappointed than us tonight (although I am soooo disappointed right now).

I am definitely with the side that wants to support the kids, you know the 'cup is half full' group! Seriously, what we are seeing is not all their fault - we have little depth and we are carrying some average guys in our roster. Some of our more experienced players are making mistakes and missing tackles as well. As for today, the team effort really lacked in intent and aggression, it seems the 22 points came too easy and we never knuckled down to match the Raiders for desire. When they lifted a notch we just didn't go with them. This to me points to something more than simply blaming Moses and Brooks, especially considering we were 22 points up, playing our first home game at Leichhardt on a dry Sunday and had everything pointing our way. Only 7 games in - they simply need more time.

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Post by Als Pals » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 10:02 pm

The Wests Tigers have always banked on the future. Problem is the present is always disappointing. We are constantly being told to be patient. What happens if these guys get injured?
It is always easier to use the future as an excuse but at some stage we actually need good results.


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Post by turnstyle » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 10:02 pm

clontarfkid wrote: Well..."experiment" is defined as conducting a series of tests to learn about something...
NEWSFLASH....the facts are in after 7 rounds....ie Right now the halves combination are uncompetitive at NRL level..and the team is failing
No more testing required
nice riposte clontarfkid. thanks for the newsflash!! :lol:

if you want to get into semantics, how about i put this a couple of other ways?

lets say you hire a new person for a job: they have just come out of uni, you really think they have what it takes to become a very prudent long term investment for your company.
after 7 weeks, they aren't completely adept in their role and running things by now.

experiment over?

you're thomas edison. after getting everything right for your lightbulb idea you just cant seem to keep the filament alight! you've tried aluminium, copper, lead... but they all keep staying alight for such a short time before burning out!

experiment over?

maybe it takes you a while to give tungsten a try. but once you do finally use it, it stays alight and you now have the lightbulb.

my point is both my examples could very likely have worthy outcomes - hence the investment; the question then becomes at what point do you give up and cut your losses - thinking you are completely off track and need to try something else?

i was using the term experiment in the context that the series of tests conducted often involve ingredients that are considered unlikely to succeed, but rather used simply on the remote chance it will have some sort of positive effect, and discarded after a very short time as further usage is deemed futile.

i used my examples of sheens' player experiments as an analogy for this type of experimentation.

choosing something you are very sure will work eventually and not having immediate success is an investment, not an experiment....
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Post by bigsiro » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:22 pm

No half can be considered good enough if he can't tackle.
Moses tackles better than Brooks but his attack has been non existent.

To those saying to hang tight and be patient: we have been patient for years so spare me this investment vs experiment garbage.
I'm a Brooks fan but I was also a Jacob Miller fan. Where did that investment go?

But damn I wish we "invested" in DCE or Thurston or Cronk.

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Post by pHyR3 » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:27 pm

clontarfkid wrote:
pHyR3 wrote:
clontarfkid wrote:
turnstyle wrote:the only thing that really gets to me is something i have banged on about for ages: tackling big guys high up when youre not big yourself!!

i just dont understand it. brooks today tried to tackle some monster high about 7 metres out, got pushed off and the guy scored.

i was never a big guy to play league, and unless i was trying to tie up the ball after a guy was going to score anyway, i always always hit them around the hips/upper thighs. no one can keep going forward if they are laying face first on the turf no matter how big they are!!

as for "experiment"? well, im speechless. obviously sheens has been obliterated from history; now lawrence, fitzhenry at 5/8th, farah and marshall at 7...recruiting jason moodie... now those are experiments dr frankenstein would be proud of!!
Well..."experiment" is defined as conducting a series of tests to learn about something...
NEWSFLASH....the facts are in after 7 rounds....ie Right now the halves combination are uncompetitive at NRL level..and the team is failing
No more testing required
yea fair enough. lets just cancel their contracts tell them to piss off, screw up our salary cap for the next few years again and then cry about how theyre playing SOO with a new club in a few years time while we're bottom 4 again.
Think the issue is right now..at the present juncture..this pairing isnt effective but may be in the future.
theyre putting tries together, moses isnt half bad but is a bit behind brooks due to inexperience, playing right side with lawrence and being underweight.

their issue is defence, and thatll come eventually.

you said 'no more testing required' then whats your solution??
''Everybody talks about their four brothers, we have 17 here so we don't really care about them."

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Post by pHyR3 » Sun 19 Apr, 2015 11:40 pm

bigsiro wrote:No half can be considered good enough if he can't tackle.
Moses tackles better than Brooks but his attack has been non existent.

To those saying to hang tight and be patient: we have been patient for years so spare me this investment vs experiment garbage.
I'm a Brooks fan but I was also a Jacob Miller fan. Where did that investment go?

But damn I wish we "invested" in DCE or Thurston or Cronk.

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all of those 3 players weren't even starting a first grade roster at 20 years old.

their clubs probably would have been better off debuting them at 18 or 19 then throwing them away a year later rather than waiting until theyre 21-22.
''Everybody talks about their four brothers, we have 17 here so we don't really care about them."

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Post by cattivo » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 1:05 am

How about Drinkwater along side Brooks???

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Post by pHyR3 » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 6:23 am

cattivo wrote:How about Drinkwater along side Brooks???

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crap in NSW Cup today, wont offer us anything extra in attack and mitch/brooks have so much more upside in terms of potential than drinkwater
''Everybody talks about their four brothers, we have 17 here so we don't really care about them."

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Post by littletiger » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 6:53 am

pHyR3 wrote:
cattivo wrote:How about Drinkwater along side Brooks???

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crap in NSW Cup today, wont offer us anything extra in attack and mitch/brooks have so much more upside in terms of potential than drinkwater

Nsw cup haven't a decent forwArd pack after a few injuries to grahame and the like. The old saying halve as good as forwards. He offers a kicking game.

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Post by wicked_j » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 7:15 am

I actually blame Farah or JT more than the halves. It was quite clear we weren't going to crack their right-side defense aa easily any more, yet we still kept going left in attack. Moses was trying to set the up on the right but couldn't get the ball.

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Post by Goose » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 2:05 pm

bigsiro wrote:No half can be considered good enough if he can't tackle.
Moses tackles better than Brooks but his attack has been non existent.

To those saying to hang tight and be patient: we have been patient for years so spare me this investment vs experiment garbage.
I'm a Brooks fan but I was also a Jacob Miller fan. Where did that investment go?

But damn I wish we "invested" in DCE or Thurston or Cronk.

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None of those were in first grade at Moses or Brooks' age. Maybe we have invested in someone who goes on to be that good.

Moses and Brooks have been sooo dominant at every level until NRL. But are still very much learning their trade. Most of their contemporaries are running around in lower grades or just starting to get a go in first grade.

There is a good reason people are staying patient, because 20 yo dont dominate immediately. We are not getting belted, we are 3 and 4. We have been in every game so far. Bombing 2 games is very frustrating, but long term, it shows potential.
This is a very young side, the downside is that young players make young player mistakes. Inconsistency is going to happen, young players switch off, all of them.

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Post by bigsiro » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 4:36 pm

Fair points goose and phyr3.

Made me think: DCE and Cronk were admittedly way better when they first came into the comp than either of our current halves, but Thurston was a bit of an unknown and was released by the Dogs in favour of Sherwin in what might be one of the worst decisions they have made in the last 20 years.
That is definitely a lesson we should take heed of.

I'm not advocating to get rid of our halves at all, I am just frustrated I guess.
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Post by razor7 » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 4:51 pm

The worry with Brooks is that he had the most number of missed tackles of any player in the NRL last season and things have not improved. He appears to be a turnstile . His attack looks promising but he must be able to defend to some degree to be in first grade. We are still not seeing evidence of that.

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Post by TrueTiger » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 4:58 pm

razor7,I agree,if we look through history every good half back was an excellent defender,the likes of S.Mortimer,P.Sterling etc...

His defence has to sharpen up,if it doesn't there will be heaps of added pressure on our forwards and plenty of tries scored against us...,
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Post by Goose » Mon 20 Apr, 2015 5:14 pm

Thurston is leading missed tackles this year.

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