How and why are we continually losing the ruck

happy tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 36308
Joined: Sun 27 Feb, 2011 4:49 pm
Has liked: 47 times
Been liked: 75 times

How and why are we continually losing the ruck

Unread post by happy tiger » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 8:23 am

We have an ex SOO player , a current SOO player and a current NZ player in our middle third and we continually lose the ruck at least two of them were continually out there today , no excuses

How does this happen ??

Nothing against Plum and Gillard but they are hardly a scary front row , solid yes

Everything that is falling down is starting here , the defence is continually on the back foot , we lack go forward

Taylor is right , we are still soft up the guts , he may have screwed up leaving Lovett out in the left centre but we are still powder puffs


User avatar
Tiger Watto
Member
Member
Posts: 10452
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 7:12 pm
Location: Maroochydore Qld
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 78 times

Unread post by Tiger Watto » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 8:39 am

In my view, the 3 main contributors to dominating the ruck is 1, Field Possession; 2. Quick Play the Balls; 3. Aggression in Defence.

We suck in all 3 facets!

In fairness though HT, in the first 40min yesterday, we had 56% possession and were tackled 18 times in the oppositions 20.

So, on top of our problems in the ruck, we also lack line breaks and the ability to build/reset effectively.

Dont stress, Taylor is working on it :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Did someone buy you the internet hero play book for Christmas and you've only just started reading it?" - Nelson 21/04/2017

TrueTiger
Forum Suppoter
Forum Suppoter
Posts: 4977
Joined: Thu 14 Aug, 2014 11:22 am
Has liked: 13 times
Been liked: 60 times

Unread post by TrueTiger » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 8:50 am

Honestly happy,we need a couple of tough hard forwards to cover the middle,unfortunately as has been stated before,there is no money to buy good quality players..yes we are soft at the moment and I can only see it getting worse as the year moves on..however an injection of money could ease the problem,when this happens is any bodies guess...

Also,Tapau,Sue ,Rowdy have been good,but your only as good as the bloke next to you,we can't rely on Woods and Farah every week,this is a team effort..once again this is what happens when you bring kids into the NRL mix,it's a huge step up to this level from NYC..

You can't just blame the young guys,they have to learn...As much as I want to give Taylor a serve,he can only work with what he has got,however some of his decisions have absolutely baffled a fair few on here as well as other supporters and members..I will be prepared to write this year off,but next year there must be a much better effort from the players AND the coaching staff...I certainly hope that the board find someway to recruit sooner than later,and they must be of NRL standard or it will be a waste of money...I will buy a membership again next year to help the cause,but it will be the last if this CLUB doesn't perform better on and off the field.....
You may see me struggle...but you will never see me quit... :D

User avatar
barra
Member
Member
Posts: 2067
Joined: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Sth Coast
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 11 times

Unread post by barra » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 9:15 am

There is a lot of mindset involved here. The team that turns up with the right attitude usually gets the upper hand in the ruck and the team that maintains the better attitude will usually keep the upper hand if they do the simple things right.

We showed the attitude and effort required against Souths, so it should be possible to show it again?

Coaching is a real mind game. The head coach has so many assistants that a large part of the job is player management and getting the best out of each individual to create a good team effort. The problem is our coach is a rookie coaching rookies. And I'm not sure he was any good at this psychology in the first place!

There has been very little confidence shown by the players all season. They mostly play like they are zombies, lacking initiative in either attack or defence around the ruck. Our 'controlled aggression' is more about playing within yourself than being aggressive. Other teams get deeper and run harder with the ball and have better line speed and hit harder in defence. It's not that hard. Yet at halftime yesterday the coach is calmly pointing out details on a white board.

I'd love to see the GPS player comparisons because I'm sure they clock up more k's off the ball than we do. We need to work a LOT harder. Yet we still struggle to get onside quickly, we struggle to chase kicks and we struggle to do the extra lateral metres required these days to stop holes appearing in the defensive line.

Basically we are a mess, and it stops with the head coach. A rookie coach that seems to be totally off track with this team.

Tiger In The Gong

Unread post by Tiger In The Gong » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 9:22 am

barra wrote:There is a lot of mindset involved here. The team that turns up with the right attitude usually gets the upper hand in the ruck and the team that maintains the better attitude will usually keep the upper hand if they do the simple things right.

We showed the attitude and effort required against Souths, so it should be possible to show it again?

Coaching is a real mind game. The head coach has so many assistants that a large part of the job is player management and getting the best out of each individual to create a good team effort. The problem is our coach is a rookie coaching rookies. And I'm not sure he was any good at this psychology in the first place!

There has been very little confidence shown by the players all season. They mostly play like they are zombies, lacking initiative in either attack or defence around the ruck. Our 'controlled aggression' is more about playing within yourself than being aggressive. Other teams get deeper and run harder with the ball and have better line speed and hit harder in defence. It's not that hard. Yet at halftime yesterday the coach is calmly pointing out details on a white board.

I'd love to see the GPS player comparisons because I'm sure they clock up more k's off the ball than we do. We need to work a LOT harder. Yet we still struggle to get onside quickly, we struggle to chase kicks and we struggle to do the extra lateral metres required these days to stop holes appearing in the defensive line.

Basically we are a mess, and it stops with the head coach. A rookie coach that seems to be totally off track with this team.

Outstanding post, cuts straight to the heart of what is really going on here.


happy tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 36308
Joined: Sun 27 Feb, 2011 4:49 pm
Has liked: 47 times
Been liked: 75 times

Unread post by happy tiger » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 9:37 am

barra wrote:There is a lot of mindset involved here. The team that turns up with the right attitude usually gets the upper hand in the ruck and the team that maintains the better attitude will usually keep the upper hand if they do the simple things right.

We showed the attitude and effort required against Souths, so it should be possible to show it again?

Coaching is a real mind game. The head coach has so many assistants that a large part of the job is player management and getting the best out of each individual to create a good team effort. The problem is our coach is a rookie coaching rookies. And I'm not sure he was any good at this psychology in the first place!

There has been very little confidence shown by the players all season. They mostly play like they are zombies, lacking initiative in either attack or defence around the ruck. Our 'controlled aggression' is more about playing within yourself than being aggressive. Other teams get deeper and run harder with the ball and have better line speed and hit harder in defence. It's not that hard. Yet at halftime yesterday the coach is calmly pointing out details on a white board.

I'd love to see the GPS player comparisons because I'm sure they clock up more k's off the ball than we do. We need to work a LOT harder. Yet we still struggle to get onside quickly, we struggle to chase kicks and we struggle to do the extra lateral metres required these days to stop holes appearing in the defensive line.

Basically we are a mess, and it stops with the head coach. A rookie coach that seems to be totally off track with this team.
So what you are saying is this Barra And this is using your own comments

We need to work a lot harder Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to get onside quickly Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to kick chase Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to move laterally Is this the players or coaches fault ??

I'm quite happy to blame Taylor for putting Lovett in the centres , real bad call in my opinion

But things are being made look far worse because we are losing the ruck and defensively we are on the back foot

User avatar
Tiger Watto
Member
Member
Posts: 10452
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 7:12 pm
Location: Maroochydore Qld
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 78 times

Unread post by Tiger Watto » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 10:06 am

All those points HT are structual and mindset.

We were winning the game at half time... We came out with a very poor mindset which was evident in the first 5 min.

I believe yesterdays loss was the coaches loss
"Did someone buy you the internet hero play book for Christmas and you've only just started reading it?" - Nelson 21/04/2017

User avatar
glebe_tiger
Forum Suppoter
Forum Suppoter
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed 15 Jul, 2009 2:19 pm

Unread post by glebe_tiger » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 10:19 am

Defensively we're still not dominating the ruck and allowing quick play the balls with the opposition. Look at the top teams and I'm noticing it more and more, they constantly get the attacking player in the tackle on their backs. This is massive in terms of ruck speed.

happy tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 36308
Joined: Sun 27 Feb, 2011 4:49 pm
Has liked: 47 times
Been liked: 75 times

Unread post by happy tiger » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 10:25 am

Tiger Watto wrote:All those points HT are structual and mindset.

We were winning the game at half time... We came out with a very poor mindset which was evident in the first 5 min.

I believe yesterdays loss was the coaches loss


In a sense the 2nd half was Taylor's fault as playing Lovett in the centres was a risk , but if the ruck holds up its a minor risk as the defence is going backwards all half

If Lovett was on the front foot he would of had a far better chance of dealing with Whare as he would of been a body in motion

Whar was standing him up for speed and getting on his outside because Lovett couldn't get in an aggressive position defensively and take Whare's options away

Whare had way too many options which is scary defending someone with less speed

User avatar
Tiger Watto
Member
Member
Posts: 10452
Joined: Mon 08 Mar, 2010 7:12 pm
Location: Maroochydore Qld
Has liked: 101 times
Been liked: 78 times

Unread post by Tiger Watto » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 10:31 am

We didnt lose yesterday because of Whare showing Lovett clean heels...

The depth of their backline was a result of our lack of intensity in the ruck.
"Did someone buy you the internet hero play book for Christmas and you've only just started reading it?" - Nelson 21/04/2017

magpiecol
Member
Member
Posts: 2759
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 3:02 pm
Has liked: 8 times
Been liked: 26 times

Unread post by magpiecol » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 10:31 am

happy tiger wrote:
barra wrote:There is a lot of mindset involved here. The team that turns up with the right attitude usually gets the upper hand in the ruck and the team that maintains the better attitude will usually keep the upper hand if they do the simple things right.

We showed the attitude and effort required against Souths, so it should be possible to show it again?

Coaching is a real mind game. The head coach has so many assistants that a large part of the job is player management and getting the best out of each individual to create a good team effort. The problem is our coach is a rookie coaching rookies. And I'm not sure he was any good at this psychology in the first place!

There has been very little confidence shown by the players all season. They mostly play like they are zombies, lacking initiative in either attack or defence around the ruck. Our 'controlled aggression' is more about playing within yourself than being aggressive. Other teams get deeper and run harder with the ball and have better line speed and hit harder in defence. It's not that hard. Yet at halftime yesterday the coach is calmly pointing out details on a white board.

I'd love to see the GPS player comparisons because I'm sure they clock up more k's off the ball than we do. We need to work a LOT harder. Yet we still struggle to get onside quickly, we struggle to chase kicks and we struggle to do the extra lateral metres required these days to stop holes appearing in the defensive line.

Basically we are a mess, and it stops with the head coach. A rookie coach that seems to be totally off track with this team.
So what you are saying is this Barra And this is using your own comments

We need to work a lot harder Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to get onside quickly Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to kick chase Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to move laterally Is this the players or coaches fault ??

I'm quite happy to blame Taylor for putting Lovett in the centres , real bad call in my opinion

But things are being made look far worse because we are losing the ruck and defensively we are on the back foot

Good post happy.

We have a number who would not hurt a wet paper bag. Mr. "give away penalties" Sue, runs hard to no effect. I do not think that I have seen him unload all year. Same with Ava. The less said about Lovett and Santi the better.

Then we have a 5/8 who should be in reserve grade. We have a half back that is so overrated it is not funny. We have a Captain who is really past it and is allowed to play injured. We have the best prop in the game (Woods) and the worst (Galloway). We have a second rower learning to play another position (Lawrence) and a veteran winger (Richards) who is also seen better days.

We have two centers ( Nofo and Simona) who, when they are not injured, should be wingers.

Rugby League games are won in the forwards. Always have been and always will be. So until we get a few more of the Tapau and Woods types we will struggle, no matter who may be our coach.

happy tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 36308
Joined: Sun 27 Feb, 2011 4:49 pm
Has liked: 47 times
Been liked: 75 times

Unread post by happy tiger » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 10:45 am

Tiger Watto wrote:We didnt lose yesterday because of Whare showing Lovett clean heels...

The depth of their backline was a result of our lack of intensity in the ruck.
I personally think we were only winning that game on the scoreboard

With the extra possession we should of lead by more

The scary thing was Penrith probably only had 3 scoring opportunities by half time and scored off two of the them

We had at least 7 or 8 and scored off 2

The possession was always going to swing at some stage and we showed we were totally ineffective of preventing them basically doing what they wanted when they wanted

tig_prmz
Member
Member
Posts: 7912
Joined: Sat 03 Oct, 2009 10:32 pm
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 20 times

Unread post by tig_prmz » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 12:45 pm

i disagree- even in the games we lost early on in the year, we continually won the ruck or close to it.

however, i agree with barra that it's a mindset thing. we weren't prepared the last two games. we just let them come at us.
My Round 1 Team 2018

1. lolo 2. noffa 3. suli 4. milne 5. fonua
6. reynolds 7. brooks
8. packer 9. ET 10. Twal
11. McQuen 12. Lawrence 13. Eiso
14. Matulino 15. McIllwrick 16. Sue 17. Aloiai
18. Marsters 19. Benji 20. Grant 21. K Naiqama
Next: Liddle, MCK, Felise, MWZ, Thompson, Rochow, Gamble

User avatar
willow
Member
Member
Posts: 30432
Joined: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 9:28 pm
Location: Perth
Has liked: 12 times
Been liked: 86 times

Unread post by willow » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 1:13 pm

We really struggle to assert any dominance in the ruck in defence. We just don't show enough aggression, despite the fact we have a decent sized pack of forwards. Galloway used to be good for a solid shot or two, but not these days. Woods has never been about big hits, and Taupau, despite his aggression when carrying the ball, isn't a big hitter either.

We did a great job on Souths by showing plenty of intensity but it's a rare flash-in-the-pan thing. I have no doubt the players are trying hard at training, but our mental application still seems weak despite the coaching changes etc.

User avatar
greatodensraven
Member
Member
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sat 15 Dec, 2012 7:11 pm
Has liked: 29 times
Been liked: 23 times

Unread post by greatodensraven » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 1:15 pm

tig_prmz wrote:i disagree- even in the games we lost early on in the year, we continually won the ruck or close to it.

however, i agree with barra that it's a mindset thing. we weren't prepared the last two games. we just let them come at us.

Exactly. Our attitude has been poor since the game v Souths. No defensive line speed, poor kick chase, no aggression in our hit ups & lack of variety in attack. Teams have learnt how to shut down our game-breakers, ie. Teddy & Tapau.

We're so focused on structure that we're no longer playing what we see, ie. How many times does Teddy have to be smashed when he links in with the backline e before we realise the play isn't on?

Someone mentioned we're no longer playing to win but just trying not to lose. At the moment that tactic doesn't suit our team. We need more linespeed in D & some more aggressive running from our pack. Then the boys might be able to play what they see & actually show what they can do.

User avatar
barra
Member
Member
Posts: 2067
Joined: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Sth Coast
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 11 times

Unread post by barra » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 1:33 pm

happy tiger wrote:
barra wrote:There is a lot of mindset involved here.

Coaching is a real mind game. The head coach has so many assistants that a large part of the job is player management and getting the best out of each individual to create a good team effort. And I'm not sure he was any good at this psychology in the first place!

There has been very little confidence shown by the players all season. They mostly play like they are zombies
So what you are saying is this Barra And this is using your own comments

We need to work a lot harder Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to get onside quickly Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to kick chase Is this the players or coaches fault ??

Struggle to move laterally Is this the players or coaches fault ??

I'm quite happy to blame Taylor for putting Lovett in the centres , real bad call in my opinion

But things are being made look far worse because we are losing the ruck and defensively we are on the back foot
Happy, all you point out above regarding lack of effort is true. But it has been happening all year. I am sure the coach can see this so either he is not concerned (bad coaching) or can't rectify it (bad coaching).

I don't disagree with Taylor's philosophy. But it is painfully clear that how he is implementing it is not working.

I have also kept and highlighted the rest of my original post to help to try to get my point across. That is, Taylor cannot seem to inspire these boys, get them fit, or get them committed enough. In fact, they are playing brain-dead most of the time both in attack and in defence.

You say he doesn't have the cattle, fair enough. But in that case it means those he does have need to be fitter, stronger, more committed and enthusiastic in what they do and better trained and prepared to do it.

Like I already said, the head coach needs to be psych and people oriented. It seems we have a rookie tactician, and he has these boys so far off track they look about ready to give up.

User avatar
jirskyr
Member
Member
Posts: 4895
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 12:00 pm
Has liked: 125 times
Been liked: 133 times

Unread post by jirskyr » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 2:03 pm

barra wrote:The problem is our coach is a rookie coaching rookies.
Taylor has coached over 100 NRL games (104), I'd hardly call that a rookie. By comparison Toovey has coached 94 games, Trent Robinson 68 (plus 63 for Catalans), Andrew McFadden 33, Paul McGregor 26.

It's not about how much experience he has, it is about getting consistent performances out of his players.

Us fans are not upset if the team puts in every week and loses some. But this up/down form, where we kill a good team then lose to an ordinary one, just kills us supporters.

happy tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 36308
Joined: Sun 27 Feb, 2011 4:49 pm
Has liked: 47 times
Been liked: 75 times

Unread post by happy tiger » Mon 29 Jun, 2015 2:44 pm

People are blaming Taylor for the amount of inexperienced players we have in a nutshell

They bombed two tries yesterday through simple errors Brooks saw Plum coming from the corner of his eye and dropped it cold when he catches and he scores under the post and Moses did the same in the 2nd half at a crucial stage

You can't coach experience into them

It will just happen , you can't push it no matter how hard you try

Post Reply

Return to “Round 16: Wests Tigers vs Penrith Panthers”