To those who are blaming Cleary

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Magpie69
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Re: To those who are blaming Cleary

Post by Magpie69 » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:13 pm

Most companies, measure their performance V last year...So we should give ourselves a tick for that. If we can say the same thing this time next year, then we are on the right track I believe


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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:15 pm

I want to know what happened to the punishment mumbo jumbo Marshall was prattling on about at the start of the year. Where the players would compete in mini competitions and the losers would be “punished”. Therefore it steeled them to win.

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Post by Magpie69 » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:15 pm

I agree, tell him he has the gig for the rest of the year, Get some miles in his body for next year

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Post by willow » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:25 pm

I don't blame Cleary for today's effort - that's 100% on the players.

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Post by Needaname » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 10:04 pm

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:15 pm
I want to know what happened to the punishment mumbo jumbo Marshall was prattling on about at the start of the year. Where the players would compete in mini competitions and the losers would be “punished”. Therefore it steeled them to win.
Their preparing to play a first grade side week in week out now. They have no time for games, that’s generally what happens when you go through pre season.
Each week with a minimum 7 day turn around they have about 3 on field sessions on total i’d Say. A lot less if they are short turn arounds.
Reality the squad is weak possibly the 2nd weakest in the comp. We have a team of tryers and that is great but there’s almost too much balance from 1 to 27 which means each week we field an average roster.
This is the bones on which to build from.
We started the year showing every other team what you can get done if you throw everything into the game, with no strike players from 1 to 17 we were pushing wins on pure adrenaline and intensity.
Guess what, the teams with players with talent and skill in their roster as well, woke up and started to play the same way hence they’ve overtaken us.
We have a fight on our hands, but unfortunately now it’s to secure 9th spot. Wouldn’t be the worse season if we finish between 9th and 11th though.
The dragons finished in 9th last year with a similar start to us and a much better roster in comparison.


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Post by Clifferd » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 10:05 pm

willow wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:25 pm
I don't blame Cleary for today's effort - that's 100% on the players.
I think the timing of taking Mats and Packer off was pretty poor...why take them off when we were dominating?

the 2nd half was just a lost cause though. I have no answer

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Post by magpiecol » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:46 pm

Bad 40 minutes today but no good slitting our wrists over it. We are still only a couple of points out of the eight. Two points next week will help.

I have been saying for weeks now that McIdrick was not first grade material. I was proven right today. Josh A, Rochow, Huth and Grant fall into the same category.

Brooks is so overrated it's not funny. The less said about Taylor the better.

Both wingers today were crap. Nofo and Thompson will fix that. I'd move Marsters to the pack and give Tui a crack in the centres. Mbye to fullback.

For the future we need a very good centre, a back up hooker for Liddle and a couple of forwards with a lot of mongrel in them.

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Post by Telltails » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 12:14 am

Eddie wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:47 pm
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:38 pm
hobbo wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm


We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !
This is seems to be the new trend, revisionists attempting to claim he inherited the squad.

Fake news.
I think it is fair to question some of the signings.

However lets remember the place was a complete train wreak on and off the field.

Its not like people were lining up and Ivan had great choices.

Thats not to say I was thrilled with the length and age of some of the signings.
Thats where player managers come in. We were last club preferred destination for elite players so we got who we got and no doubt their managers ensured they were well looked after.
Up until today I think we have performed better than expected
What happens after this week will be telling because we were comprehensively whipped.
St George had a similar season to us last year and have progressed to a much better level with some expensive but astute signings
I hope we can do the same

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Post by InBenjiWeTrust » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 12:33 am

MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:27 pm
This is in particular directed at those questioning his signings and selections. I feel like I need to go into bat for the guy.

The Tigers after last season needed a roster refresh. I think that was plain to see and I think that was his mandate from the club when he was signed. I think we pretty much all wanted it. This was made even more clear after Tedesco, Woods and Moses decided to abandon ship. Unfortunately we are not going to be able to go out and turn over the entire squad in one season and become contenders. Only the Roosters can do that because for whatever reason they just sign whoever they want whenever they want. It seems though even with the Roosters they have tactical down years that they use to reload the side for the next run at it. Even still they just have the benefit of a system that allows them for whatever reason to just pick the eyes out of the entire comp.

So given we needed a roster refresh Cleary went out and signed a lot of players. But you can't get superstars in every position. Many of them he will only expect to do a job for a year or two, transitional players, and if they contribute well enough to stick then even better. Guys like Thompson, Marshall, Twal and Fonua fall into this category which will expedite the rebuild but then you get guys like Godinet, Rochow and Lolohea who look like they won't, and guys like Milne who washed out already. Godinet and Lolohea will go before too long if they can't stack up. He would not have been expecting any of these types of players to stick, just hoping they would but expecting them to do a better job than a harsh critic would have predicted they would. You can't even count McQueen against him because he didn't sign McQueen.

Then there is the fact that there are players he would have had to keep around just to sustain the squad. Guys like Sue, Naiqama, Chee Kam, Grant etc. You can't sack the entire squad without causing a disaster with the cap but you can see by the fact that he has not given them starts that he doesn't plan to keep any of them around past their contract expiration. They have contracts to pay out and there aren't enough players on the market to stock a full squad, let alone a competitive one, let alone that would have been willing to come to a side like ours.

We need the men and Cleary signed players who he perceived would play above their skill level and hold the fort while he continues to build the side. They have largely done this as we were predicted on paper to be spooners and we are already in a position where that is pretty much impossible.

Lastly, Cleary arguably had not a single player who was a top level NRL starter when he came in aside from Tedesco who he lost before he had a chance to contribute to that decision. Any player who looks to have now solidified a spot is a net positive. Marsters, Brooks and Lawrence in particular who are all playing at NRL starter or better standard this year so far.

There are some guys that he signed that he, and any rational person, would be expecting more from at this point in the season. Namely Josh Reynolds (who has been unable to put any game time together), Russell Packer and Ben Matulino who were our three real big name signings. These three have been relatively disappointing in the scheme of things. Reynolds in particular is a concern given his body seems to be breaking down. Packer and Matulino have improvement to come in my opinion but it's just an opinion. There's no doubt it's disappointing but I don't think you can criticise Cleary for those three signings given their status in the game and the situation we were in. Packer has never been a big numbers prop, he's a general and an impact man. Both the big guys are in their first year here and have had some real solid games. At worst they are doing a better job than our engine room were last year.

This is year one of the rebuild. I think the progress is fantastic. Today was awful, truly, but I am sure at the start of the year
most people would have had us chalked up for more floggings than we've had and far fewer wins.

I wouldn't give it an A but I definitely give his work a B+ and find it really peculiar that there are people already sticking the knives in. Cleary has been a breath of fresh air in every way and has the side competing well above their level. We've also managed to go out and source a quality player in Moses Mbye mid season with the Dogs apparently paying some of his salary for the next couple of years. No doubt there will be more signings to come, and more development from guys like Marsters, Fonua, Twal et al. There is still much to look forward to and Cleary has really set this in motion in a good way.

So lay off the coach and lower your expectations for your own health. We are 14 rounds into the biggest rebuild we've had since Sheens got here in 2003.
hear, hear :sign:
Go Tigers

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Post by Tigerdave » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 5:51 am

Before the 2nd half of yesterday's game, if everyone is honest, pretty sure we all would have been happy if someone said at the beginning of the year, we'd have 7 wins and 7 losses after 14 rounds and had been pretty competitive in the losses. Especially with the roster at our disposal.

Not sure why 40 minutes suddenly overrides the prior 1160 minutes.

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Post by innsaneink » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 6:21 am

Tigerdave wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 5:51 am
Before the 2nd half of yesterday's game, if everyone is honest, pretty sure we all would have been happy if someone said at the beginning of the year, we'd have 7 wins and 7 losses after 14 rounds and had been pretty competitive in the losses. Especially with the roster at our disposal.

Not sure why 40 minutes suddenly overrides the prior 1160 minutes.
Its like everyone expected it...saw it coming>?
I know I had a nagging fear in the back of my mind we couldnt keep hanging on for these close losses...lots of small cracks the 6 weeks or so

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 6:25 am

innsaneink wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 6:21 am
Tigerdave wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 5:51 am
Before the 2nd half of yesterday's game, if everyone is honest, pretty sure we all would have been happy if someone said at the beginning of the year, we'd have 7 wins and 7 losses after 14 rounds and had been pretty competitive in the losses. Especially with the roster at our disposal.

Not sure why 40 minutes suddenly overrides the prior 1160 minutes.
Its like everyone expected it...saw it coming>?
I know I had a nagging fear in the back of my mind we couldnt keep hanging on for these close losses...lots of small cracks the 6 weeks or so
A bit like 2016 when we had lost 5 in a row. We weren’t far off, got beaten by the Storm in golden point. Went down to Canberra and got beaten by 60.

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Post by Milky » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 6:34 am

I don’t blame Cleary and I’m completely understanding.

But we were in that game until Matt Mcilwrick went off injured.

Where has Matt been all season? Godinet?? Seriously?

We lost how many games by 2 points? Im not saying we would have won them but Matt would have made a difference.

Yesterday we had a lack of experience and guidance. Packer and Matulino needed to fire the side up but it just didn’t happen.

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Post by TCL » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 7:29 am

Yesterday was the players.

My only criticism of Ivan is his selection of ET. Our 9's have been our week link in attack, we are slow and defences are moving up on us.

Liddel may have played 80mins in RG yesterday but he has never looked like playing a full 80mins in FG. Both Godno and Killa haven't done much and again yesterday luck has it Killa gone in the first half.

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Post by iofthetigers » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 7:30 am

swag tiger wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:37 pm
On a positive we haven't got the wooden spoon as yet. At least we haven't got 3 wooden spoons in a row.
Yet the team with these spoons are able to identify & attract better talent than the Tigers can.
Unfortunately for the Tigers it is has to work out what there identity is. Previouysly the club's identity was built around junior development & the strength of the game in Western Sydney, a model that seems to be disbanded ( doesn't appear to be any up & comers working through the grades). Now it seems we are trying to build a roster by buying players, unfortunately mostly we are only attracting players on a downhill form slide (Twal excepted) or players other clubs don't want. When you see the signings for next year from other clubs (noteably Newcastle & the Gold Coast) it is hard to get excited about the direction the Tigers appear to be heading in, however this is not just about Cleary.

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Post by diedpretty » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 7:40 am

I'll reserve my judgement on the team and Cleary until after the Titans game. Our form hasn't been great the last few weeks and a blowout game has been brewing. As usual it was Canberra that delivered that blowout. We will see what this team are made of next game. Cleary has done wonders with the culture and the defence up until yesterday. This season can go one of 2 ways - we slump back to the mess we have been for the past couple of years or we turn it around starting next week, put a good win on the Titans and get back to competing in every game. I don't expect us to make the 8 but hope that we are at least in the mix until the final round.

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Post by Harvey » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 7:56 am

MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:52 pm
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:48 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:45 pm
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:38 pm

This is seems to be the new trend, revisionists attempting to claim he inherited the squad.

Fake news.
Let's see.

Josh Aloiai - SR, LK - Was here before
Luke Brooks - HB - Was here before
Michael Chee Kam - SR, CE - Was here before
Matt Eisenhuth - LK, PR, SR - Was here before
JJ Felise - PR - Was here before
Mahe Fonua - WG, CE - Cleary
Tyson Gamble - FE, HB - Cleary
Heath Gibbs - SR, CE - Cleary I think
Pita Godinet - HK, HB - Cleary
Tim Grant - PR - Was here before
Chris Lawrence (c) - SR, CE - Was here before
Jacob Liddle - HK - Was here before
Tuimoala Lolohea - FB, FE (gk) - Cleary
Benji Marshall (c) - FE, HB (gk) - Cleary
Esan Marsters - CE, SR (gk) - Was here before
Ben Matulino - PR - Was here before
Moses Mbye - FB, HB - Cleary
Matt McIlwrick - HK - Was here before
Sam McIntyre - CE, WG - Cleary
Chris McQueen - SR, LK - Was here before
Thomas Mikaele - PR - Was here before
Kevin Naiqama - CE, WG - Was here before
David Nofoaluma - WG, - Was here before
Russell Packer (c) - PR - Cleary
Josh Reynolds (c) - FE, HK - Cleary
Robbie Rochow - SR, PR - Cleary
Bayley Sironen - LK, FE - Was here before
Dylan Smith - FB - Cleary
Sauaso Sue - PR, LK - Was here before
Elijah Taylor (c) - LK, SR - Was here before
Corey Thompson - FB, WG - Cleary
Alex Twal - PR - Cleary
Malakai Watene-Zelezniak - WG, CE - Cleary

He sure inherited a large chunk of the squad no?

That's not even the point. I am blown away that people want to put it on the coach who has wooden spoon favourites running 10th and competing when he is year one into a rebuild. Support the club! He's only just started!
Besides Lawrence, Sue and Aloiai, he either signed or re-signed every one of those players listed. Meaning after he came on board, he extended the contracts of players off contract
A lot of one year and two year extensions to get us through the rebuild my friend.

Who would you have had him sign that he did not sign exactly? Ponga? Watson? We had a fair crack at Watson and lost. Is that Cleary's fault?

Not to mention Newcastle are in year three of their rebuild, we're in year one and we're beating them on the ladder.

Crazy expectations around here. Pure pants on head.
If they are not good enough, no point extending them, they just tie up your top 30 when other players become available.

The bigger problem is that guys he signed to long term cap eating contracts aren't performing.

Looking at movements this Wallace, Boyd, Glasby have all become available & are arguably better than Packer and Matulino.

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Post by Russell » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 9:18 am

Nice work Mac. Pretty honest appraisal of the situation.

One blowout and it's the end of the world - a blowout without Marshall, Reynolds, Nofaluma, Lawrence, Fonua and McIlwrick.

A lot of teams could win with six players out - but not with our roster. Players will be added and we will continue to improve. The Titans will not be easy the way they have been playing but hopefully we will pick ourselves up to be competitive again, as we have for all the previous games except Penriff.

To finish on a positive, how good was Rowdy yesterday - Cordner eat your heart out.

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