Wests Tigers - a history of mediocrity

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Magpie Magic
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Re: Wests Tigers - a history of mediocrity

Post by Magpie Magic » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:15 pm

razzledazzle wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:08 pm
Oggy wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 12:52 pm
Eddie wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 12:48 pm
I think some people have forgotten we came into the season as favourites for the spoon. I have been happy with performances this season in line with ability and realistic expectations. My concern is this squad does not strike me as one to get excited about in the future. Who are the young players to really keep an eye on ?

With most rebuilds you want to see a young - emerging sort of team . This is not that . It’s a team that could get old and is already slow . We would have had that with the likes of Tedesco, Addo Carr, Moses etc - but it all went pear shaped.
Getting Older actually worked for the Sharks. when they signed all the old players it helped win them the comp finally 2 years ago. I feel this team could have that same style as the sharks that grinding boring style. but really have to enhance on it next year.
I think the key difference between that Sharks team and us is they had a creative spark (i.e. Ben Barba) who could change games out of nowhere. Not to mention an awesome dummy-half. We are definitely lacking those aspects.
I agree.

So to that end does getting Mbye and Farah solve our problems to a large degree.

Probably does.


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Post by Russell » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:32 pm

Silentio wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 11:51 am
Russell wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 11:46 am
Could not disagree with anyone more Silentio.

Think you are talking a load of rubbish - probably to fit in with your own thoughts.

This is the best Board and CEO we have ever had - Sheens / Cleary the best coaches.

You are being totally unrealistic.
Interested on what basis you disagree so strongly.

The chair and CEO have not come even close to hitting their KPIs.

For the record, I'm not bagging Cleary or the players.
The Board (not just the chair) and CEO have done an amazing job so far.

*We are out of debt. finally after many years.

*They have brought stability to the club which we haven't had for a number of years.

*The club has record membership this year of 19,329 so far.

*Appointed a coach to rebuild a club in crisis - that had runs on the board with the Warriors and Penrith.

*Plans in place for a C of E (they already had more than half the finance and were granted 5.5m from the Government) see https://www.weststigers.com.au/news/201 ... nt/seeking m - It was reported by AAP on the weekend that Wests Tigers will be granted 58m - this could be used to fill any shortfall for C of E. However we will wait till that hits our bank before getting too carried away.

* Part of that 58m (if it eventuates) could be used to fund junior development etc.

*As far as committing to one home ground, there are a number of hurdles to an immediate decision i.e. Contract with ANZ, how long is it and can we break it. How good would WSS be for Tigers and is it in the right area being next to Parramatta Leagues Club (it is not built yet) etc. Should they stick with either LO or CSS or try to development Concord. There are a number of possibilities and decisions that can't be made overnight.

* Recruitment has been on track as a number of players were let go, players were purchased to fill these positions with limited funds, limited players on the market and accounting for players that would not come here (e.g. Maloney said he would never play for us). Players will be cut and added to over the next couple of years as Cleary has stated.

All in all I think they have done well and Silentio if you think that is not enough - you are reaching for a rainbow.

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Post by Oggy » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:37 pm

bottom line is the majority of people only care about results on the field. and it's the same results just about every year for this team. that is the issue.

I don;t think any other team has made the finals less then us the past 18 years, maybe the titans but they have only been around 11 years. speaking of which if we can't beat them next week, one would think the season is just about gone. because if we lose to them that would make losing to 4 teams outside the current top 8

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Post by gallagher » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:55 pm

Are we on track to ' break even' because we have increased our income? Or it because we've cut back on spending?
If we are spending millions less than other clubs then that's not really something to boast about is it?

I just see loads of BS.

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Post by Silentio » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:12 pm

For those interested, the 3 year strategic plan can be viewed here (you may need to refresh a few times to get it to load):

https://web.archive.org/web/20160317164 ... INALv2.pdf

2017 performance measures:

- To make the NRL top 4: A huge fail here
- 12 local juniors in the full time squad: Probably a fail but I have not scrutinized it
- 18% increase in membership: I will give the club a pass, I think the membership experience has improved, although I a not sure what revenue increase there has been from membership
- 33% increase in game attendance: Fail, crowds actually dropped between 2016 and 2017
- 80% increase in social media followers: Who cares, this is known in the marketing industry as a vanity metric
- 28% increase in marchandise sales: Unsure, but I'll give it a tick because I'm a kind human being

The chair and CEO have dismally failed to deliver what they promised.

I take my hat off to the club if they are turning a profit, but we also don't know if they're unnecessarily penny pinching. This is accounting 101 stuff.

The "competitive Sydney market" claim is one of the biggest misnomers in the game and is easy to hide behind. Every other Sydney club is in the same boat and have made the finals ahead of us in recent years. People forget that Sydney is a huge city with stacks of fans and big corporate support.

As for delivering a "winning culture", our experience so far is akin to a parent promoting a "healthy lifestyle" by sitting on the couch, talking about how a "healthy lifestyle" is important.


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Post by will1999 » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:17 pm

hope that was just a one off performance and not a training run for other teams like last few years

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Post by cktiger » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:24 pm

I know we all want the back office to be running smoothly ....but none of us go to the footy to cheer for the directors or CEO.
I’m like most I think - sick of waiting for consistent on field results.

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Post by Furious1 » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:33 pm

razzledazzle wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:08 pm
Oggy wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 12:52 pm
Eddie wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 12:48 pm
I think some people have forgotten we came into the season as favourites for the spoon. I have been happy with performances this season in line with ability and realistic expectations. My concern is this squad does not strike me as one to get excited about in the future. Who are the young players to really keep an eye on ?

With most rebuilds you want to see a young - emerging sort of team . This is not that . It’s a team that could get old and is already slow . We would have had that with the likes of Tedesco, Addo Carr, Moses etc - but it all went pear shaped.
Getting Older actually worked for the Sharks. when they signed all the old players it helped win them the comp finally 2 years ago. I feel this team could have that same style as the sharks that grinding boring style. but really have to enhance on it next year.
I think the key difference between that Sharks team and us is they had a creative spark (i.e. Ben Barba) who could change games out of nowhere. Not to mention an awesome dummy-half. We are definitely lacking those aspects.
I don't know about that. My memory (and it sure isn't what it used to be) was of the Sharks being a grinding, dirty, get down in the trenches kind of side. They built that style whilst Bird (Greg not Jack)was still there, which is a few years ago now. The premiership threat Sharks came about in latter years, where after it's been ingrained in them to play tough, they developed some sharp juniors and recruited well ( Barba, Fifita etc) to take them to the next level while still having that hard edge. Their financial position also improved tenfold with the development on the land behind their field.

We are in the early stages of that same process. Sure, we arent the toughest side around, but until yesterday, under Clearys watch this team has never ever not had a go until the final whistle. Cleary has already stated, the players that help you change the culture are not necessarily the ones to take you to the next level. I know it's hard, but we have to be patient and have faith in the process.

I also believe if Pascoe hadn't of been CEO, there would be no Cleary. Just my opinion.

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Post by hammertime » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:42 pm

Russell wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:32 pm
It was reported by AAP on the weekend that Wests Tigers will be granted 58m - this could be used to fill any shortfall for C of E. However we will wait till that hits our bank before getting too carried away.

* Part of that 58m (if it eventuates) could be used to fund junior development etc.
Have you got the article? I think they've got that wrong. That's the entire cost.

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Post by Silentio » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:53 pm

hammertime wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:42 pm
Russell wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:32 pm
It was reported by AAP on the weekend that Wests Tigers will be granted 58m - this could be used to fill any shortfall for C of E. However we will wait till that hits our bank before getting too carried away.

* Part of that 58m (if it eventuates) could be used to fund junior development etc.
Have you got the article? I think they've got that wrong. That's the entire cost.
I'd be interested too.

My understanding was that seven clubs were promised a total of $50 million by the NSW Government. .

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Post by The Patriot » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 3:13 pm

Welcome back Robbie. . . .

Nah the op had some good points but i think the on field issues are clouding the situation.

We desperately need a few more quality players.

Pascoe has my support as long as he keeps a level of accountability around the place.
Its an opinion!

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Post by jirskyr » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 3:19 pm

Silentio wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:12 pm
For those interested, the 3 year strategic plan can be viewed here (you may need to refresh a few times to get it to load):

https://web.archive.org/web/20160317164 ... INALv2.pdf

2017 performance measures:

- To make the NRL top 4: A huge fail here
- 12 local juniors in the full time squad: Probably a fail but I have not scrutinized it
- 18% increase in membership: I will give the club a pass, I think the membership experience has improved, although I a not sure what revenue increase there has been from membership
- 33% increase in game attendance: Fail, crowds actually dropped between 2016 and 2017
- 80% increase in social media followers: Who cares, this is known in the marketing industry as a vanity metric
- 28% increase in marchandise sales: Unsure, but I'll give it a tick because I'm a kind human being

The chair and CEO have dismally failed to deliver what they promised.

I take my hat off to the club if they are turning a profit, but we also don't know if they're unnecessarily penny pinching. This is accounting 101 stuff.

The "competitive Sydney market" claim is one of the biggest misnomers in the game and is easy to hide behind. Every other Sydney club is in the same boat and have made the finals ahead of us in recent years. People forget that Sydney is a huge city with stacks of fans and big corporate support.

As for delivering a "winning culture", our experience so far is akin to a parent promoting a "healthy lifestyle" by sitting on the couch, talking about how a "healthy lifestyle" is important.
Thing is, public strategic plans are tough. What are Tigers going to write "Finish Top 10" as their realstic goal?

For the record, only 7 teams made the Top 4 between 2015-2017 (Roosters, Broncs, Cows, Storm, Raiders, Sharks, Eels), so in that respect 56% of clubs would have a fail against Top 4 KPI.

Also the plan to which you refer was for the period 2015-2017, i.e. generated in 2014 and delivered start 2015? Pascoe wasn't even at the club until the end of 2015. How many of the original board members are still there from start 2015?

Interesting to note that every single person named or photographed in that strategic plan is gone from the Tigers 2018, except Marina Go - every player, the coach, all gone. So if you wan't Go's head, so be it, and whomever is on the board from back then, to make it a clean collection of heads taken from 2015.

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Post by jirskyr » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 3:21 pm

Silentio wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 11:29 am
Newtown wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 10:55 am
Have a look at Parra's mediocrity stats. If you want to win every match then follow Roosters who have some magical very private solution which they have used over the past few years.
At least Parra made the finals in recent years.....

And I hate the Roosters with a burning passion, but they do get somewhat experienced people running their club.
Roosters still have a fairly ordinary finals record, about 50% Top 8 success rate in the NRL era and win about 50% of finals games that they play in (last time I checked). They have 1 premiership and 3 MPs during this period.

They have more success than us for sure, but Roosters take on really lean years before winding up for their next campaign tilt. They are just better than us of not extending their unsuccessful periods.

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Post by Oggy » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 3:26 pm

but when the roosters have 1 SHOCKING year. the next year they are a top 4 team.. note 2009 wooden spoon to 2010 grand final.. couple of years ago struggled last year back to the top 4 again..

in our case seems to take a decade at a time before even making the 8. in fact as a merger we have never actually been able to edge into the top 8. in the 3 big runs it has been because of a huge run in July and August. which got us to the top 4.

the 2010 team was the only team people actually expected to make the top 4. the 2012 team we were premiership favs and we know where that year went other then that every year we are picked in the bottom 4. one achievement we have made is not winning the wooden spoon, something we should avoid again this year as the eels would have to win 5 games out of their last 9 to get us.

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Post by Oggy » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 3:34 pm

in 2010 after souths beat us by 50 we were in 9th place May 16th.. we went on to finish 3rd This might be our only consistent year.

2011 July 8th, we were 9th again, went on to finish 4 winning 8 in a row.

2005 9th again on July 10. you all know what happens there after that game.

The other 14 years. have been disasters late in the season. the 2009 team had a good run at the end left it too late we could have been the eels fluke run at the end. the 2016 team finished strong but got smashed by the raiders at the end. and the 2000 team were in 2nd place, and could not recover from a 31-8 lead they blew and injuries.

We are 10th now.. could we win 8 in a row and finish 4th again?? it's mathematically possible indeed. but our team doesn't have the attack those teams did. the 2010 team was the best team we have ever had.. and yes it was better then the 2005 team only it didn't get the results at the end missed out by a point of the grand final.

this 2018 team looks like the 2004 team. play hard, tough refs ripping us off all the time and costing us games. but probably good enough to finish 9th lacking the x factor. that team also lost games 56-0 and 50-0 back to back weeks and I think still finish with a F and A of only -25

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Post by Russell » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 4:28 pm

hammertime wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 2:42 pm
Russell wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 1:32 pm
It was reported by AAP on the weekend that Wests Tigers will be granted 58m - this could be used to fill any shortfall for C of E. However we will wait till that hits our bank before getting too carried away.

* Part of that 58m (if it eventuates) could be used to fund junior development etc.
Have you got the article? I think they've got that wrong. That's the entire cost.
Article is below:

NRL posts $28 million half-year profit
By AAP
2 days ago
The NRL claims the game has never been in better financial shape - and they've shown everyone in clubland the numbers to prove it.

As promised when he took over, ARL Commission chairman Peter Beattie on Friday opened the league's books to club and state chairmen and chief executives.

And what they found was a $27.8 million surplus over the first half of the season - a far cry from the $11.2 million they were in the red this time last year.

The NRL trumpeted a 29 per cent increase in sponsorship, a 39 per cent rise in distributions to clubs and a 17 per cent jump in funding to the states.

It is believed the rise in club grants could result in at least six of them posting a surplus in what would be a first for the code.

The NRL also said Australian TV audiences were up one million viewers on last year while crowds had grown three per cent.

"This is the first time this has actually happened, that we've shared every bit of the finances with the clubs, the chairs and the states," Beattie said.

"That's the kind of transparency that will build trust and confidence in the game."

Beattie promised to be transparent after his predecessor John Grant was ousted following a dispute with the clubs over the allocation of funds and the game's finances.

Gold Coast chairman Dennis Watt praised Beattie and the NRL for their transparency.

"What's particularly pleasing is there's less reliance on our wonderful broadcast partners in terms of driving results," he said.

"The NRL team have driven those non-broadcast revenues, those commercial arms in particular in terms of sponsorship, wagering and the digital fields.

"There's also been incredible discipline shown by the NRL around costs and containment."

Beattie is hoping their growing relationship with clubs means the game can also look at investing extra revenue in assets that could eventually do away with a reliance on broadcast revenue.

The NRL also revealed the establishment of a distress fund for clubs, who will each tip in $187,500 per year over the course of the broadcast cycle and reclaim it if unused.

The governing body says any money made above the budgeted surplus would be accumulated until 2022 before being split equally between clubs, players, grassroots and the NRL.

Clubs have also secured a combined $316.9 million for centres of excellence. Wests Tigers will get $58m of it while some will go towards facilities in Victoria and Northern Territory.

©2018

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Post by gallagher » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 4:34 pm

Weve been given $58mill and no comment from the club? Pascoe would be shouting it from the roof tops!!

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Post by Russell » Mon 18 Jun, 2018 4:48 pm

gallagher wrote:
Mon 18 Jun, 2018 4:34 pm
Weve been given $58mill and no comment from the club? Pascoe would be shouting it from the roof tops!!
That's why I said I'll wait till it is in the bank before I get excited.

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