Cleary

Wests Tigers Discussion
User avatar
helmesy
Member
Member
Posts: 1870
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 9:18 am
Location: Sydney

Re: cleary

Post by helmesy » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:40 am

Realistically we’re 3 or 4 good players off being a 5th to 8th ranked team.

We need another prop (an intimidator), a tough second rower and another couple of outside backs.


Eddie
Member
Member
Posts: 3442
Joined: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 3:05 pm

Post by Eddie » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:52 am

I think Cleary is a good coach but I did question his signings at the time and the long term appeal of them. MY question is what were these players producing when they were bought? What did people really expect?

Reynolds was playing ordinary in a side going like a busted.

Macqueen was going ordinary in a side going poorly.

Packers was going decent in a side missing finals regularly.

Matalino had had a quiet few years in a team that had not played finals since 2011.

And our other sign gins were journeyman from the Super League.

All our signings were from clubs losing regularly that their own clubs were not gutted when they left.

I would be find if they were for 1-2 years however some of the 4 year deals were way over the top for me. As these are not young players.
Last edited by Eddie on Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Russell
Member
Member
Posts: 4518
Joined: Sat 10 Dec, 2011 6:46 pm

Post by Russell » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:52 am

helmesy wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:40 am
Realistically we’re 3 or 4 good players off being a 5th to 8th ranked team.

We need another prop (an intimidator), a tough second rower and another couple of outside backs.
Which is what we said at the start of the year.

Things have not changed - just become more obvious.

User avatar
foreveratiger
Member
Member
Posts: 11908
Joined: Mon 27 Jun, 2011 8:03 pm

Post by foreveratiger » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 11:04 am

Eddie wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:52 am
I think Cleary is a good coach but I did question his signings at the time and the long term appeal of them. MY question is what were these players producing when they were bought? What did people really expect?

Reynolds was playing ordinary in a side going like a busted.

Macqueen was going ordinary in a side going poorly.

Packers was going decent in a side missing finals regularly.

Matalino had had a quiet few years in a team that had not played finals since 2011.

And our other sign gins were journeyman from the Super League.

All our signings were from clubs losing regularly that their own clubs were not gutted when they left.

I would be find if they were for 1-2 years however some of the 4 year deals were way over the top for me. As these are not young players.
Yep can't argue with that .
But realistically your top notch ( Rep players ) it just wouldn't appeal going to a Club like ours cause they know they risk there Rep future.....well obviously if your prepared to pay way overs.

We have so many Reserve Grade type players playing 1st it's quite sad really.

Realistically out of our Top 17 players who would make the 17 in any of these sides ? Roosters , Storm , Dragons , Panthers, Rabbits , Sharks ?????????
It depends who you talk to on this Forum, if you are Optimistic? it's because your delusional and need a reality check. If you are Pessimistic? Your accused of being a negative Nancy and to go and follow another Club.

goldcoast tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 5928
Joined: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 5:42 pm

Post by goldcoast tiger » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 11:33 am

Balmain Boy wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 9:35 am
Our forwards have to be allowed to hit the ball up. If they were consistently only making 4m a hit up that would be a bad sign. They're just now allowed to run the ball much with our current gameplan.

Cleary would know we're not too far off, but with all clubs we have our bad contracts. Reynolds and to a lesser extent McQueen are shockers.
McQueen , no matter who signed him was by far the worst signing that we have made in the last few years.
I posted around the time when the rumours started that The Titans did not think that he would ever be right, and at best would not be up to First grade standard, and it was an open secret among the players . Right up to when he came here,

As for Ivan’s other signings, they were all big risks, so I’m amazed that they got the money that they did, and the length of contracts
As well.

I’m ok with Cleary as a coach, as he got something out of them early on, but if there’s more barrel bottom signings , that’ll be it for me,
Maybe our early wins were just because we ambushed the top sides early , when they weren’t up to their best and they also underestimated us,
I don’t know or care, but last week was the time to stand up, after a hiding in our previous game and the arrival of Mbye and Robbie,but we wecouldnt even get up for that one.

I’m glad that those two weren’t asked this week to come over, as they’d have run like hell
Lawrence, Robbie,and Mybe were about the only ones that could hold their head up
The longer this crap continues, our chances (if we ever had any,) of getting Nathan here , dwindle to Next to none.

Even if Nathan’s here , it would be child abuse if he advised Nathan to come here ,unless there’s some concrete evidence that we are going to buy some genuine first graders,
And get rid of at least half a dozen imposters that we have now.


User avatar
851
Member
Member
Posts: 5819
Joined: Sun 12 Jul, 2009 6:38 pm

Post by 851 » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 12:01 pm

Russell wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:17 am
Well it hasn't taken long to turn on the coach. Fraction more than half a season.

Oh! well - the more things change, the more they stay the same.
I am not turning on the coach, but some of our players should be held accountable for there effort of late, Cleary offered a host of quality players a contract, they all said no, just because we had money didn't get us the players we wanted or needed. But some we have should be moved on, they are clearly not up to it, as for Cleary he should be safe.
Go hard or go home

User avatar
GNR4LIFE
Member
Member
Posts: 21382
Joined: Mon 28 Feb, 2011 5:57 pm

Post by GNR4LIFE » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 12:26 pm

No one is suggesting Cleary should be sacked. Not that i have read anyway. Constructive criticism does not translate to wanting a coach sacked. The reality is he's the one whose accountable for our new guys who are struggling. McQueen and Matulino have been non factors, Packer has declined, and grub can't stay on the field. Compared to our last 2 coaches, he's had it easy. We should be traveling much better than we are. The first 2 months proved that. And if you don't agree, then whose to blame? This year was the first year we were able to compete on a level playing field again. There's no reason why we couldn't cement a spot in the 8. I read excuses last week that it was only his first pre season. Laughable. Tell that to Anthony Seibold. Its time to start holding him to the same standards previous coaches were. Who had half the advantages Cleary has btw.

Seantice
Member
Member
Posts: 1499
Joined: Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:00 pm

Post by Seantice » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 1:23 pm

I don't understand oie tactics though. Why are we not playing through the middle? This sideways movement to the backs doesn't make sense to me. We just havnt got the talent there to make things happen apart from marsters on occasion. Brooks sideways running is really starting to annoy me. Play direct around the ruck after quick play the balls and watch the defence line compress. The Titans ran through our middle all day.

User avatar
Demps
Member
Member
Posts: 7669
Joined: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Newcastle

Post by Demps » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 1:26 pm

helmesy wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:40 am
Realistically we’re 3 or 4 good players off being a 5th to 8th ranked team.

We need another prop (an intimidator), a tough second rower and another couple of outside backs.
Yeah and 4 players is a qtr of the team.
We need one of everything according to the last paragraph.

Who do u suggest?
No one decent off contract... Check the options.

We need to beg for some early releases from other clubs and throw in our deadwood.... MCK. Eisenhuth. Etc.
#Unbeatable

"I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid" - John Gotti

Wests Tigers Forum's most brilliant mind.

User avatar
Demps
Member
Member
Posts: 7669
Joined: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Newcastle

Post by Demps » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 1:29 pm

Demps wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 1:26 pm
helmesy wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:40 am
Realistically we’re 3 or 4 good players off being a 5th to 8th ranked team.

We need another prop (an intimidator), a tough second rower and another couple of outside backs.
Yeah and 4 players is a qtr of the team.
We need one of everything according to the last paragraph.

Who do u suggest?
No one decent off contract... Check the options.

We need to beg for some early releases from other clubs and throw in our deadwood.... MCK. Eisenhuth. Etc.
For example....

Plz sitaleki come back, well absorb your contract and sweeten the deal by throwing in Che Kam or Aloiai...

Super league nerds, could this work?
#Unbeatable

"I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid" - John Gotti

Wests Tigers Forum's most brilliant mind.

User avatar
momo&medo
Member
Member
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri 20 May, 2016 9:48 am
Location: NSW central coast

Post by momo&medo » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 2:47 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:28 am
Russell wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:17 am
Well it hasn't taken long to turn on the coach. Fraction more than half a season.

Oh! well - the more things change, the more they stay the same.
A lot of predictable wrist slitting.

See when a team is highly competitive for about 10 rounds, then much less competitive for 10 rounds, who is to blame? Is it the coach's fault for not getting the players up each and every week over 24 rounds? Or is it the player's fault for not being able to produce consistent performances week in and out.

I find it very hard to believe that a coach who got the team to 5-1 in the first 6 weeks suddenly doesn't know how to coach or build a roster. How can the strategy and game management that played so well for the first half of the year suddenly not work any more?

To me that falls on the players. There are systems in place that help us play well, defend and play tough, but they aren't being followed the past 8-10 weeks. To be smashed by Canberra and limply fall to Titans in 2 weeks separated by a bye, I can't really put that on the coach. Getting beat is one thing, getting hammered and having no fight is another, and usually that's about the players.

The real question for me is why do the players fall away? It's not the same team year on year, though we've brought a few oldies back in 2018. Sheens, Taylor, Potter, Cleary, Pearce, Lamb - that's a lot of coaches managing to follow the same game plan - start well early, finish poorly, finish just outside the finals (or worse).
I don’t think that many teams have demonstrated winning consistency. Ones that do have developed a team culture mixed with a core group of top line players.
Never in my 50+ years of watching NRL have I seen a inexperienced team such as 2018 WT are (cobbled together with a mixture of good, average and bad) reach any great heights.
So did not and do not expect much more than we have achieved this year ..... improvement!
For all those dreamers and critics ..... ease off learn how to be patient .... and learn how to LOSE!

Russell
Member
Member
Posts: 4518
Joined: Sat 10 Dec, 2011 6:46 pm

Post by Russell » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 2:50 pm

momo&medo wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 2:47 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:28 am
Russell wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:17 am
Well it hasn't taken long to turn on the coach. Fraction more than half a season.

Oh! well - the more things change, the more they stay the same.
A lot of predictable wrist slitting.

See when a team is highly competitive for about 10 rounds, then much less competitive for 10 rounds, who is to blame? Is it the coach's fault for not getting the players up each and every week over 24 rounds? Or is it the player's fault for not being able to produce consistent performances week in and out.

I find it very hard to believe that a coach who got the team to 5-1 in the first 6 weeks suddenly doesn't know how to coach or build a roster. How can the strategy and game management that played so well for the first half of the year suddenly not work any more?

To me that falls on the players. There are systems in place that help us play well, defend and play tough, but they aren't being followed the past 8-10 weeks. To be smashed by Canberra and limply fall to Titans in 2 weeks separated by a bye, I can't really put that on the coach. Getting beat is one thing, getting hammered and having no fight is another, and usually that's about the players.

The real question for me is why do the players fall away? It's not the same team year on year, though we've brought a few oldies back in 2018. Sheens, Taylor, Potter, Cleary, Pearce, Lamb - that's a lot of coaches managing to follow the same game plan - start well early, finish poorly, finish just outside the finals (or worse).
I don’t think that many teams have demonstrated winning consistency. Ones that do have developed a team culture mixed with a core group of top line players.
Never in my 50+ years of watching NRL have I seen a inexperienced team such as 2018 WT are (cobbled together with a mixture of good, average and bad) reach any great heights.
So did not and do not expect much more than we have achieved this year ..... improvement!
For all those dreamers and critics ..... ease off learn how to be patient .... and learn how to LOSE!
Nailed it M & M.

Eddie
Member
Member
Posts: 3442
Joined: Tue 14 Jul, 2009 3:05 pm

Post by Eddie » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 2:51 pm

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 12:26 pm
No one is suggesting Cleary should be sacked. Not that i have read anyway. Constructive criticism does not translate to wanting a coach sacked. The reality is he's the one whose accountable for our new guys who are struggling. McQueen and Matulino have been non factors, Packer has declined, and grub can't stay on the field. Compared to our last 2 coaches, he's had it easy. We should be traveling much better than we are. The first 2 months proved that. And if you don't agree, then whose to blame? This year was the first year we were able to compete on a level playing field again. There's no reason why we couldn't cement a spot in the 8. I read excuses last week that it was only his first pre season. Laughable. Tell that to Anthony Seibold. Its time to start holding him to the same standards previous coaches were. Who had half the advantages Cleary has btw.
I agree with some of this.

However previous coaches also had players like Tapau, Koribete, Addo Carr, Moses, Farah, Woods, Tedesco and we found ways to let them go. Imagine that sort of roster now.

Our roster talent has diminished this season compared to previous years in my eyes. However that is somewhat offset by the ability to go into the market. I thought Newcastle bought a lot better then us, but even they are probably a lot more attractive then us at the minute.

Lauren
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun 06 May, 2018 4:07 am

Post by Lauren » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 2:58 pm

There’s no doubting Ivan’s coaching ability, but agree that they’ve adopted a game plan that is failing us. Seems all the talk about lack of attack has the team moving away from what actually worked for us. Reynolds touched on it a little bit last night on NRL360.
Kevin Naiqama and Brooks are two players who have somewhat demonstrated how much they’ve developed their game since Ivan came here. There defensive efforts are tenfold better. I remember watching both constantly sliding down the bodies of their oppositions in tackles, like wet strippers down a pole.

The recruitment is another thing that he really can’t help...think the only other player who was close to signing with us as Harawira Naera. But agree he has control over the quality of players he signs.

I’d say our poor facilities is another factor that really does impact the team’s fitness and recovery. Our injury runs show this. If you look at guys like those Burgess twins, I know one of them actually has 2-3 stints in one game. And game after game he does the same thing, with no decline in fitness.

We got the perfect recruit in Alex Twal. Best asset is his age as much his drive.

(Could someone also clarify Taniela Tuiaki’s retirement? Did our facilities or staff in anyway affect that?. Unintentionally of course. Just hope Pascoe keeps heavily pushing for the Centre of Excellence)

Seantice
Member
Member
Posts: 1499
Joined: Mon 13 Mar, 2017 9:00 pm

Post by Seantice » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 3:31 pm

It could be worse. We could be paying 4-5 players to play elsewhere like we did two years ago.. I predicted 10th at start of season so going all right

goldcoast tiger
Member
Member
Posts: 5928
Joined: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 5:42 pm

Post by goldcoast tiger » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 3:45 pm

momo&medo wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 2:47 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:28 am
Russell wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:17 am
Well it hasn't taken long to turn on the coach. Fraction more than half a season.

Oh! well - the more things change, the more they stay the same.
A lot of predictable wrist slitting.

See when a team is highly competitive for about 10 rounds, then much less competitive for 10 rounds, who is to blame? Is it the coach's fault for not getting the players up each and every week over 24 rounds? Or is it the player's fault for not being able to produce consistent performances week in and out.

I find it very hard to believe that a coach who got the team to 5-1 in the first 6 weeks suddenly doesn't know how to coach or build a roster. How can the strategy and game management that played so well for the first half of the year suddenly not work any more?

To me that falls on the players. There are systems in place that help us play well, defend and play tough, but they aren't being followed the past 8-10 weeks. To be smashed by Canberra and limply fall to Titans in 2 weeks separated by a bye, I can't really put that on the coach. Getting beat is one thing, getting hammered and having no fight is another, and usually that's about the players.

The real question for me is why do the players fall away? It's not the same team year on year, though we've brought a few oldies back in 2018. Sheens, Taylor, Potter, Cleary, Pearce, Lamb - that's a lot of coaches managing to follow the same game plan - start well early, finish poorly, finish just outside the finals (or worse).
I don’t think that many teams have demonstrated winning consistency. Ones that do have developed a team culture mixed with a core group of top line players.
Never in my 50+ years of watching NRL have I seen a inexperienced team such as 2018 WT are (cobbled together with a mixture of good, average and bad) reach any great heights.
So did not and do not expect much more than we have achieved this year ..... improvement!
For all those dreamers and critics ..... ease off learn how to be patient .... and learn how to LOSE!
Sorry jirskyr,
But that last sentence was hilarious, I was just wondering which Wests supporter hasn’t had the most extensive lessons in losing that any sports follower could ever have, we are THE BEST. :evil:

Do we have a supporter living in a cave inLower Kurdistan who has no power, internet or any other link to any civilisation in the known world? He’d be the only one to not hear our results
We are the only sports fans anywhere who have to sign a binding agreement, that states that we have to sit an exam (with a 100% pass )stating that we are EXTREMELY great at losing.

There is no sports supporter that is better than us in losing, we can write books on it,
We can give talks to Governments on Losing, (and that’s not easy).
North Sydney ask us for tips on losing ,
All the blokes who raced Steven Bradbury were WESTS Supporters :o
And as certain proof that WT supporters are bloody good at losing ,is the fact that none were allowed in the Syndicate that owned Winx
What more evidence do you want
We’re the Best :righton:

User avatar
jirskyr
Member
Member
Posts: 5566
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 12:00 pm

Post by jirskyr » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 4:26 pm

goldcoast tiger wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 3:45 pm
momo&medo wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 2:47 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:28 am
Russell wrote:
Wed 04 Jul, 2018 10:17 am
Well it hasn't taken long to turn on the coach. Fraction more than half a season.

Oh! well - the more things change, the more they stay the same.
A lot of predictable wrist slitting.

See when a team is highly competitive for about 10 rounds, then much less competitive for 10 rounds, who is to blame? Is it the coach's fault for not getting the players up each and every week over 24 rounds? Or is it the player's fault for not being able to produce consistent performances week in and out.

I find it very hard to believe that a coach who got the team to 5-1 in the first 6 weeks suddenly doesn't know how to coach or build a roster. How can the strategy and game management that played so well for the first half of the year suddenly not work any more?

To me that falls on the players. There are systems in place that help us play well, defend and play tough, but they aren't being followed the past 8-10 weeks. To be smashed by Canberra and limply fall to Titans in 2 weeks separated by a bye, I can't really put that on the coach. Getting beat is one thing, getting hammered and having no fight is another, and usually that's about the players.

The real question for me is why do the players fall away? It's not the same team year on year, though we've brought a few oldies back in 2018. Sheens, Taylor, Potter, Cleary, Pearce, Lamb - that's a lot of coaches managing to follow the same game plan - start well early, finish poorly, finish just outside the finals (or worse).
I don’t think that many teams have demonstrated winning consistency. Ones that do have developed a team culture mixed with a core group of top line players.
Never in my 50+ years of watching NRL have I seen a inexperienced team such as 2018 WT are (cobbled together with a mixture of good, average and bad) reach any great heights.
So did not and do not expect much more than we have achieved this year ..... improvement!
For all those dreamers and critics ..... ease off learn how to be patient .... and learn how to LOSE!
Sorry jirskyr,
But that last sentence was hilarious, I was just wondering which Wests supporter hasn’t had the most extensive lessons in losing that any sports follower could ever have, we are THE BEST. :evil:

Do we have a supporter living in a cave inLower Kurdistan who has no power, internet or any other link to any civilisation in the known world? He’d be the only one to not hear our results
We are the only sports fans anywhere who have to sign a binding agreement, that states that we have to sit an exam (with a 100% pass )stating that we are EXTREMELY great at losing.

There is no sports supporter that is better than us in losing, we can write books on it,
We can give talks to Governments on Losing, (and that’s not easy).
North Sydney ask us for tips on losing ,
All the blokes who raced Steven Bradbury were WESTS Supporters :o
And as certain proof that WT supporters are bloody good at losing ,is the fact that none were allowed in the Syndicate that owned Winx
What more evidence do you want
We’re the Best :righton:
Ease up I didn't write that, M&M did.

User avatar
Chicken Faced Killa
Member
Member
Posts: 1531
Joined: Mon 17 Apr, 2017 8:19 pm

Post by Chicken Faced Killa » Wed 04 Jul, 2018 4:26 pm

What would really bring players to the club is if we sack the coach every 2 years. That way they’ll get the chance to see how different coaches and systems operate and work out which system is best for them.

Post Reply