2019 Coaching saga -Thread

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Cultured Bogan
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Re: 2019 Coaching saga -Thread

Post by Cultured Bogan » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:02 am

Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
Would be hilarious if he wound up out in the cold, but he isn't leaving here without a payout unless he has somewhere to go.
Madge's Maulers.

Cuando llegue el día, y estoy parado a las puertas del cielo, será Dios pidiendo mi perdón...


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Post by supercoach » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:02 am

I agree smart request by the board. Penrith basically started all this crap, and okay it might not have been illegal but it was certainly unethical. The question is, how badly do they want Cleary and at what price. I think IC would be willing to throw some of his own money towards getting a release, because although has not said anything publicly it is pretty obvious he wants out ASAP. As others have said we need to be getting something out of all this because we are the victim in this saga.

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am

Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.

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Post by Pawsandclaws » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:11 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am
Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.
We'll soon discover if there is any father/son clause in NC's contract.

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Post by avocadoontoast » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:12 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am
Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.
Penrith aren't going to pay anything. Ivan was used as a pawn to sign Nathan. Why would any club go to such extreme measures to sign a sub 50% coach that they'd previously fired? Now that Nathan is signed long term Penrith don't need to do anything. They know we need to get rid of Ivan more than they need him.


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Post by old man tiger » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:18 am

I wouldn't worry. That just says "we are willing to negotiate"... I doubt Rothfield can interpret that though.

I mean really, there's no point posting tidbits from him. There is no one less likely to have an insider on our board. He probably heard it from the "footy whisperer" while getting a massage from him at one of Eddie Hayson's joints

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:20 am

avocadoontoast wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:12 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am
Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.
Penrith aren't going to pay anything. Ivan was used as a pawn to sign Nathan. Why would any club go to such extreme measures to sign a sub 50% coach that they'd previously fired? Now that Nathan is signed long term Penrith don't need to do anything. They know we need to get rid of Ivan more than they need him.
We don't need to get rid of him at all. I think the club is happy to persist with him, unless we can come out of this in a stronger position. If the situation was that toxic and we needed to get rid of him, we wouldn't be putting a price on his head. He'd get a release with no provisions, and he probably would have gotten it weeks ago. The fact we want compensation shows we're happy to use some leverage.

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Post by avocadoontoast » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:23 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:20 am
avocadoontoast wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:12 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am
Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.
Penrith aren't going to pay anything. Ivan was used as a pawn to sign Nathan. Why would any club go to such extreme measures to sign a sub 50% coach that they'd previously fired? Now that Nathan is signed long term Penrith don't need to do anything. They know we need to get rid of Ivan more than they need him.
We don't need to get rid of him at all. I think the club is happy to persist with him, unless we can come out of this in a stronger position. If the situation was that toxic and we needed to get rid of him, we wouldn't be putting a price on his head. He'd get a release with no provisions, and he probably would have gotten it weeks ago. The fact we want compensation shows we're happy to use some leverage.
But I don't think we have any leverage at all because I don't think Penrith cares if they get Cleary now or later. Persisting with Cleary for a further two years is not in the best interests of the club, the fans or the players.

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Post by colmcd » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:30 am

avocadoontoast wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:12 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am
Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.
Penrith aren't going to pay anything. Ivan was used as a pawn to sign Nathan. Why would any club go to such extreme measures to sign a sub 50% coach that they'd previously fired? Now that Nathan is signed long term Penrith don't need to do anything. They know we need to get rid of Ivan more than they need him.
Yep.... Coaching wise, Penrith have booted Griffin pre final. Put in Ciraldo who won't mind waiting behind Cleary for a few seasons and lined up everything for a sub 50% coach.... A good sub 50% but a sub 50%.
With Penrith's roster, even Jason taylor would come 9th! (maybe 8th if the other 9 clubs had big trouble).

Man we just don't need this chaos. I can't see Bennett coming here... I just can't. It will either be a swap for Siebold at Souths or off to the Gold Coast Titans. Hey if it means signing Darius to carry the oranges lets do it but I don't see that happening.

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Post by TheDaBoss » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:32 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:50 am
TheDaBoss wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:46 am
NT Tiger wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:44 am
Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:39 pm


I don't think anybody is disputing that.
It is the decision of whether his position is untenable for 2019 and perhaps 2020 that is the cause for debate.
Untenable: adj. Incapable of being maintained.
Ivan has a contract. That may maintain him as the coach of Wests Tigers. We'll see soon I suppose.
its not his coaching position we are worrying about, its how the rumours and drama will affect our performance in the season to come
Yeah, we might finish in the bottom half of the 8 for the 8th consecutive year, which wasn't looking likely anyway before this crap hit the fan :?
i mean, we are used to it by now :bawling :brick:
:sign: + :deadhorse: = Ivan in a nutshell

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Post by TheDaBoss » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:33 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am
Telltails wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:58 am
Is Ivan worth 1/2 mill to Penrith now they have secured Nathan? I really am not sure.
Ivan might end up being a coach that has gone from one that two clubs were fighting over to one, that neither really want.
I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.
especially if the players take a liking towards ciraldo, and they win games
:sign: + :deadhorse: = Ivan in a nutshell

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:36 am

You're right, they probably don't. But we need to show some fortitude instead of saying "here, you can have our coach". What happens if another club comes along and tries poaching our next coach? Do we roll over again? That will be the expectation from the next club. We have him under contract for exactly these kinds of situations, so if some club wants to take someone, they have to pay up.

Its a no win situation. They will cop it no matter how they handle the terms of Cleary's release. FWIW, im in the camp that believes they are right to stick to their guns.

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Post by avocadoontoast » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:44 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:36 am
You're right, they probably don't. But we need to show some fortitude instead of saying "here, you can have our coach". What happens if another club comes along and tries poaching our next coach? Do we roll over again? That will be the expectation from the next club. We have him under contract for exactly these kinds of situations, so if some club wants to take someone, they have to pay up.

Its a no win situation. They will cop it no matter how they handle the terms of Cleary's release. FWIW, im in the camp that believes they are right to stick to their guns.
All decisions should be made with the best interests of the club in mind. If sticking to our guns means that Cleary stays it is not in the clubs best interests.

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Post by innsaneink » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:02 am

Doc Tiger wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 9:24 am
Just skipped from page 41 to 90...What I miss?
Hah!
I do that in the signings/suggestion thread lol

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Post by jirskyr » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:08 am

steve-o wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:27 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:15 pm
Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 4:52 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 3:23 pm

Are Souths closer to a premiership than Tigers? Arguably yes.

However Souths finished 12th and 12th in 2016 to 2017. The man who turned them around in 2018 = Seibold. He's odds-on to be leaving very soon. So I wouldn't be putting my eggs in the Souths basket when their ace rookie coach is about to be poached by a real competition powerhouse. Broncos haven't won a comp in 12 years but in all other aspects they are the true powerhouse of the league.

Has the Seibold been handled better? No, I can't see how you can say that. Same deal - a wealthy club trying to pinch your coach a few years in advance and then make his current contract "untenable". You think Souths are happy that Seibold is holding them off? They gave him a chance, took a punt with a rookie coach; he may have got that chance elsewhere, but the minute the gamble has paid off, Seibold has moved to upgrade his deal at another club.

Rusty Crowe is not a bottomless pit of money, you have no idea. He's reportedly worth $75-95M. Nick Politis is worth $1.35B, now that's where you can start talking about money pits.

And you say Souths will have no problem attracting a top-line coach... if so why did they hire a rookie for 2018? By all reports they are looking at recalling David Furner or another rookie if Seibold goes.
In your opinion Souths are "arguably" in a better position than WT to win a premiership? :lol: 999 people out of 1000 would say there is no argument. We couldn't even make the 8 and are stuck paying gems like Chris McQueen good coin for the next year or 2....... you beaut!!
Souths appointed Seibold because he was very highly rated by most good judges involved in the game. Besides, are you able to name any top-line coaches that were available at the start of 2018? Pretty sure there weren't any.
And Rusty's $90 million isn't a bottomless pit? Where I come from it's not a bad start. Poor bugger.....I will be sure to send him a rescue package of milk arrowroot's and fresh water if the unlucky bloke is doing it tough scraping by on meagre coin like that. You only had to hear every player from the Rabbits rave about how much of a difference his presence/business contacts and accumen made to their club in 2014. Nothing would have changed there, they wouldn't have as much clout as a club if he didn't have his finger in the pie business-wise.
Not a powerhouse.
So who is a powerhouse? Broncos, Storm, Roosters (despite having no fans). Souths would be next in line. From memory they have the second most members, the backing of Russell Crowe, one of the strongest brands in RL, and have had recent success on the field. Who do reckon Bennett would be more likely to coach - us or them? Pretty obvious answer IMO
Yes those 3 teams are powerhouses. Broncos have massively bigger crowds, finances and advertising clout than any club in the league, by some considerable margin. Roosters unfortunately won the comp, regularly finish near the top and have unparalleled financially- and politically-minded stewardship. Storm have unmatched on-field success - they win 2 of every 3 matches they play and have sustained that for 20 seasons.

Souths are doing just fine, but not close to any of those 3 clubs. In the NRL era they've made the finals 6/19 times (32%), won 1 comp, collected 3 wooden spoons, got punted and readmitted. This season they were one match from the GF but previous two seasons came 12th and punted their coach.

I mean I don't know how you can consider Rabbits a powerhouse when Broncos are weeks away from nabbing their coach. That's REAL pulling power there.

Now if your sole argument is comparing other clubs to Wests Tigers, and calling every club better than us "a powerhouse", then sure, you got me, there are some 12 powerhouse clubs in the NRL. It's literally like watching the Champions League, so many powerhouses every week.

I'm not arguing who Bennett may or may not want to coach. Who the hell knows what is in that man's mind?

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Post by weststigers » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:13 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:36 am
You're right, they probably don't. But we need to show some fortitude instead of saying "here, you can have our coach". What happens if another club comes along and tries poaching our next coach? Do we roll over again? That will be the expectation from the next club. We have him under contract for exactly these kinds of situations, so if some club wants to take someone, they have to pay up.

Its a no win situation. They will cop it no matter how they handle the terms of Cleary's release. FWIW, im in the camp that believes they are right to stick to their guns.
For me it's a head vs heart debate which is why I'm so conflicted.

On the one hand I think we should stick to our guns and make him finish his contract (HEART).

On the other, how much value do we get from a coach that doesn't want to be here, plus the inherent uncertainty it brings to the players around who will coach the side, not to mention potential recruitment issues (HEAD).

The question now is which one is more important to us fans? Proving a point or getting on with it to get results?

I personally think if Ivan is here come pre-season training, our season is dead.

Maguire took an underperforming Souths team in his first 4 seasons with the club to:

2012 - 3rd,
2013 - 2nd (equal first on points)
2014 - 3rd
2015 - 7th

He supposedly "lost the dressing room" and followed up with 2 years at 12th in 2016 and 2017.

I don't know..it sucks what has transpired, but people burn you in life sometimes. It's the people that can let it go that bounce back better for it. Hopefully that's us.

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Post by jirskyr » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:13 am

avocadoontoast wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:23 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:20 am
avocadoontoast wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:12 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:04 am

I don't think Penrith will be bending over themselves to pay that sort of compensation. At the same time though, we have to show some backbone and keep a price on his head.
Penrith aren't going to pay anything. Ivan was used as a pawn to sign Nathan. Why would any club go to such extreme measures to sign a sub 50% coach that they'd previously fired? Now that Nathan is signed long term Penrith don't need to do anything. They know we need to get rid of Ivan more than they need him.
We don't need to get rid of him at all. I think the club is happy to persist with him, unless we can come out of this in a stronger position. If the situation was that toxic and we needed to get rid of him, we wouldn't be putting a price on his head. He'd get a release with no provisions, and he probably would have gotten it weeks ago. The fact we want compensation shows we're happy to use some leverage.
But I don't think we have any leverage at all because I don't think Penrith cares if they get Cleary now or later. Persisting with Cleary for a further two years is not in the best interests of the club, the fans or the players.
We must surely have leverage because no club signs a coach 2 years in advance. Has it ever happened in the history of rugby league? 1 season yes, but that is for top-field coaches, not 50% guys like Ivan.

So if Penrith don't care if they get Cleary now or later, why all the hullabaloo? Why sack the coach who got them to the finals? If they don't care about Ivan then don't sign him at all, sign up Ciraldo for the next 3 seasons.

Tigers are doing the right thing here. If you hand over Ivan and ask for nothing in return, you get nothing in return. If you demand something, you might not get $500K but you will likely negotiate something.

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:18 am

Ivan already had us steering towards the iceberg well before this drama with our terrible recruitment and average results. Let him be the one to hit it. Why should another coach have to clean up his mess. That's how i'd look at it if he stays.

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