2019 Coaching saga -Thread

Wests Tigers Discussion
User avatar
avocadoontoast
Member
Member
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri 11 Sep, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Parts Unknown

Re: 2019 Coaching saga -Thread

Post by avocadoontoast » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:18 am

jirskyr wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:13 am
avocadoontoast wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:23 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:20 am
avocadoontoast wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 10:12 am


Penrith aren't going to pay anything. Ivan was used as a pawn to sign Nathan. Why would any club go to such extreme measures to sign a sub 50% coach that they'd previously fired? Now that Nathan is signed long term Penrith don't need to do anything. They know we need to get rid of Ivan more than they need him.
We don't need to get rid of him at all. I think the club is happy to persist with him, unless we can come out of this in a stronger position. If the situation was that toxic and we needed to get rid of him, we wouldn't be putting a price on his head. He'd get a release with no provisions, and he probably would have gotten it weeks ago. The fact we want compensation shows we're happy to use some leverage.
But I don't think we have any leverage at all because I don't think Penrith cares if they get Cleary now or later. Persisting with Cleary for a further two years is not in the best interests of the club, the fans or the players.
We must surely have leverage because no club signs a coach 2 years in advance. Has it ever happened in the history of rugby league? 1 season yes, but that is for top-field coaches, not 50% guys like Ivan.

So if Penrith don't care if they get Cleary now or later, why all the hullabaloo? Why sack the coach who got them to the finals? If they don't care about Ivan then don't sign him at all, sign up Ciraldo for the next 3 seasons.

Tigers are doing the right thing here. If you hand over Ivan and ask for nothing in return, you get nothing in return. If you demand something, you might not get $500K but you will likely negotiate something.
I think the only reason they went after Ivan in the first place was to secure Nathan. There are a lot of coaches out there better than Ivan they could have pursued just as hard. Do the Panthers have a better chance of winning the premiership with Ivan there over Ciraldo? I'm not so sure.

The difference in the situations is that Penrith can wait for 2 years. We can't. I just want him gone.


supercoach
Member
Member
Posts: 7168
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 2:38 pm

Post by supercoach » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:56 am

Bottom line Penriths window of winning the comp is probably the next couple of years, than it may close. So do you think they will risk a rookie in charge. I don’t think so, okay Cleary’shas not won a comp, but he is a experienced campaigner, who knows how to handle all the crap that goes with coaching. The toad of toad hall Gould will probably be the game plan man who ever coaches.

Anyway I think Penrith know the importance of getting Cleary into the joint. I think they also know he has a point to prove after getting shown the door last time, so he will be hungry

User avatar
steve-o
Member
Member
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue 14 Sep, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by steve-o » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:02 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:08 am
steve-o wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:27 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:15 pm
Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 4:52 pm

In your opinion Souths are "arguably" in a better position than WT to win a premiership? :lol: 999 people out of 1000 would say there is no argument. We couldn't even make the 8 and are stuck paying gems like Chris McQueen good coin for the next year or 2....... you beaut!!
Souths appointed Seibold because he was very highly rated by most good judges involved in the game. Besides, are you able to name any top-line coaches that were available at the start of 2018? Pretty sure there weren't any.
And Rusty's $90 million isn't a bottomless pit? Where I come from it's not a bad start. Poor bugger.....I will be sure to send him a rescue package of milk arrowroot's and fresh water if the unlucky bloke is doing it tough scraping by on meagre coin like that. You only had to hear every player from the Rabbits rave about how much of a difference his presence/business contacts and accumen made to their club in 2014. Nothing would have changed there, they wouldn't have as much clout as a club if he didn't have his finger in the pie business-wise.
Not a powerhouse.
So who is a powerhouse? Broncos, Storm, Roosters (despite having no fans). Souths would be next in line. From memory they have the second most members, the backing of Russell Crowe, one of the strongest brands in RL, and have had recent success on the field. Who do reckon Bennett would be more likely to coach - us or them? Pretty obvious answer IMO
Yes those 3 teams are powerhouses. Broncos have massively bigger crowds, finances and advertising clout than any club in the league, by some considerable margin. Roosters unfortunately won the comp, regularly finish near the top and have unparalleled financially- and politically-minded stewardship. Storm have unmatched on-field success - they win 2 of every 3 matches they play and have sustained that for 20 seasons.

Souths are doing just fine, but not close to any of those 3 clubs. In the NRL era they've made the finals 6/19 times (32%), won 1 comp, collected 3 wooden spoons, got punted and readmitted. This season they were one match from the GF but previous two seasons came 12th and punted their coach.

I mean I don't know how you can consider Rabbits a powerhouse when Broncos are weeks away from nabbing their coach. That's REAL pulling power there.

Now if your sole argument is comparing other clubs to Wests Tigers, and calling every club better than us "a powerhouse", then sure, you got me, there are some 12 powerhouse clubs in the NRL. It's literally like watching the Champions League, so many powerhouses every week.

I'm not arguing who Bennett may or may not want to coach. Who the hell knows what is in that man's mind?
You’re going back too far in your analysis in my opinion. The game has changed significantly in the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 years. The biggest change that has further shifted the balance of power to a few clubs is the introduction of TPAs. The teams that have access to loads of them are the powerhouses, those that don’t are the battlers. Souths would be #4 in that category behind the 3 clubs discussed. In the 7 season since 2012, Souths have made the playoffs 5 times, 4 of those in the top 4. I don’t need to remind you of the tigers record of that same period. Powerhouse or not, there is a BIG difference in the clout of the Rabbitohs and the Tigers
Year of last finals appearance:
2018 - Roosters, Storm, Rabbitohs, Sharks, Panthers, Broncos, Dragons, Warriors
2017 - Eels, Sea Eagles, Cowboys
2016 - Raiders, Bulldogs, Titans
2013 - Knights
2011 - Tigers

User avatar
TheDaBoss
Member
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue 21 Aug, 2018 8:43 am
Location: C'Town

Post by TheDaBoss » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:04 pm

steve-o wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:02 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:08 am
steve-o wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:27 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:15 pm

Not a powerhouse.
So who is a powerhouse? Broncos, Storm, Roosters (despite having no fans). Souths would be next in line. From memory they have the second most members, the backing of Russell Crowe, one of the strongest brands in RL, and have had recent success on the field. Who do reckon Bennett would be more likely to coach - us or them? Pretty obvious answer IMO
Yes those 3 teams are powerhouses. Broncos have massively bigger crowds, finances and advertising clout than any club in the league, by some considerable margin. Roosters unfortunately won the comp, regularly finish near the top and have unparalleled financially- and politically-minded stewardship. Storm have unmatched on-field success - they win 2 of every 3 matches they play and have sustained that for 20 seasons.

Souths are doing just fine, but not close to any of those 3 clubs. In the NRL era they've made the finals 6/19 times (32%), won 1 comp, collected 3 wooden spoons, got punted and readmitted. This season they were one match from the GF but previous two seasons came 12th and punted their coach.

I mean I don't know how you can consider Rabbits a powerhouse when Broncos are weeks away from nabbing their coach. That's REAL pulling power there.

Now if your sole argument is comparing other clubs to Wests Tigers, and calling every club better than us "a powerhouse", then sure, you got me, there are some 12 powerhouse clubs in the NRL. It's literally like watching the Champions League, so many powerhouses every week.

I'm not arguing who Bennett may or may not want to coach. Who the hell knows what is in that man's mind?
You’re going back too far in your analysis in my opinion. The game has changed significantly in the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 years. The biggest change that has further shifted the balance of power to a few clubs is the introduction of TPAs. The teams that have access to loads of them are the powerhouses, those that don’t are the battlers. Souths would be #4 in that category behind the 3 clubs discussed. In the 7 season since 2012, Souths have made the playoffs 5 times, 4 of those in the top 4. I don’t need to remind you of the tigers record of that same period. Powerhouse or not, there is a BIG difference in the clout of the Rabbitohs and the Tigers
not only the game, but a lot of the teams as well
:sign: + :deadhorse: = Ivan in a nutshell

Snake
Member
Member
Posts: 5178
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 5:37 pm

Post by Snake » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:07 pm

supercoach wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:56 am
Bottom line Penriths window of winning the comp is probably the next couple of years, than it may close. So do you think they will risk a rookie in charge. I don’t think so, okay Cleary’shas not won a comp, but he is a experienced campaigner, who knows how to handle all the crap that goes with coaching. The toad of toad hall Gould will probably be the game plan man who ever coaches.

Anyway I think Penrith know the importance of getting Cleary into the joint. I think they also know he has a point to prove after getting shown the door last time, so he will be hungry
This is how it is !Penrith are definitely in the window of success for the next 2 seasons not in 3 having a rookie coach in that period would be totally unexceptionable if they want Cleary they will pay.
The figure that the board wants can and will be negotiated Like everything else , my question is has another coach accepted the role at the Tigers ?This is a multi million dollar business these days ,decisions are not made for spite or what ever these decisions are commercial... bottom line success means you survive .
Last edited by Snake on Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.


andrew 474
Member
Member
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sat 11 Jun, 2011 2:15 pm

Post by andrew 474 » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:09 pm

Manly look like they have fixed there Coaching position with Hasler to take over , announcement in 1 hour

supercoach
Member
Member
Posts: 7168
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 2:38 pm

Post by supercoach » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:42 pm

andrew 474 wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:09 pm
Manly look like they have fixed there Coaching position with Hasler to take over , announcement in 1 hour
Hasler although excentic and his recent efforts as a coach would have plenty of people scratching their heads, but he will be a good fit for Manly in there present mess. When you look at the players they have when fully fit, its not a bad squad. Forward pack is a little light on in quality, but over all they have a better squad than us

User avatar
GNR4LIFE
Member
Member
Posts: 22678
Joined: Mon 28 Feb, 2011 5:57 pm

Post by GNR4LIFE » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:48 pm

supercoach wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:42 pm
andrew 474 wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:09 pm
Manly look like they have fixed there Coaching position with Hasler to take over , announcement in 1 hour
Hasler although excentic and his recent efforts as a coach would have plenty of people scratching their heads, but he will be a good fit for Manly in there present mess. When you look at the players they have when fully fit, its not a bad squad. Forward pack is a little light on in quality, but over all they have a better squad than us
What's that got to do with the price of rice in China. Why has everything got to come back to us?

User avatar
GNR4LIFE
Member
Member
Posts: 22678
Joined: Mon 28 Feb, 2011 5:57 pm

Post by GNR4LIFE » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:50 pm

supercoach wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 11:56 am
Bottom line Penriths window of winning the comp is probably the next couple of years, than it may close. So do you think they will risk a rookie in charge. I don’t think so, okay Cleary’shas not won a comp, but he is a experienced campaigner, who knows how to handle all the crap that goes with coaching. The toad of toad hall Gould will probably be the game plan man who ever coaches.

Anyway I think Penrith know the importance of getting Cleary into the joint. I think they also know he has a point to prove after getting shown the door last time, so he will be hungry
Lets see them cough up the cash then.

User avatar
innsaneink
Member
Member
Posts: 29605
Joined: Fri 10 Jul, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: ...ahead of you....

Post by innsaneink » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:50 pm

I expect them to improve on this year

Spud Murphy
Member
Member
Posts: 2416
Joined: Sat 13 May, 2017 5:04 pm
Location: Third Heaven

Post by Spud Murphy » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:00 pm

Hasler and Manly are a great fit. He should never have gone to the Bulldogs in the first place. Only went for the big bucks, or was it just to sabotage them? Either way he did a good job of messing them up and being paid handsomely for it 😂. Now he is back where he belongs.

gallagher
Member
Member
Posts: 5621
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 1:18 pm

Post by gallagher » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:26 pm

Haslers win record was still 57% at the dogs, I can see then improving aswell next year.

User avatar
Cultured Bogan
Member
Member
Posts: 18173
Joined: Tue 15 Sep, 2009 11:20 pm
Location: Blue Mountains

Post by Cultured Bogan » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:28 pm

Spud Murphy wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:00 pm
Hasler and Manly are a great fit. He should never have gone to the Bulldogs in the first place. Only went for the big bucks, or was it just to sabotage them? Either way he did a good job of messing them up and being paid handsomely for it 😂. Now he is back where he belongs.
Bulldogs threw the kitchen sink at him, plus I think he knew what was coming in the way of salary cap dramas at Manly.

He did win them 2 premierships though and steered them through their best years. Des never looked right at Canterbury.
Madge's Maulers.

Cuando llegue el día, y estoy parado a las puertas del cielo, será Dios pidiendo mi perdón...

User avatar
jirskyr
Member
Member
Posts: 6106
Joined: Mon 13 Jul, 2009 12:00 pm

Post by jirskyr » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:40 pm

steve-o wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:02 pm
You’re going back too far in your analysis in my opinion. The game has changed significantly in the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 years. The biggest change that has further shifted the balance of power to a few clubs is the introduction of TPAs. The teams that have access to loads of them are the powerhouses, those that don’t are the battlers. Souths would be #4 in that category behind the 3 clubs discussed. In the 7 season since 2012, Souths have made the playoffs 5 times, 4 of those in the top 4. I don’t need to remind you of the tigers record of that same period. Powerhouse or not, there is a BIG difference in the clout of the Rabbitohs and the Tigers
I'll start by saying we don't know much at all about the value and assignment of TPAs and most of what people like to suggest about TPAs is pure speculation.

NRL did release some figures this year. You claim Souths would be #4 in TPAs behind the 3 clubs I mentioned and you'd be wrong, because Roosters aren't in the Top 3 TPA clubs according to NRL.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/08/30/ret ... e-of-tpas/
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/nrl-da ... 0wayc.html
Melbourne had the highest value of private sector TPAs, totalling $788,000 last season.

Brisbane and Penrith had $550,000 each, while only one other club totalled more than $300,000 and six clubs were below $100,000 in private sector TPAs.
Souths may indeed be #4, in which case you are trying to convince me that Souths have more TPAs registered than Roosters.

And if Souths don't have more TPAs than Roosters, then Souths can only have somewhere between $100-300K as per the article. NRL state that Storm (well not Storm really - Smith and Slater) pull $800K TPAs, Broncos and Panthers a bit over $500K, TEAM X has somewhere over $300K, 10 teams have $100-300K and 6 teams have < $100K.

Maybe I did go back too far in my analysis, but TPAs were introduced in 2006. So let's look at Souths since 2006 - 1 premiership, 1 wooden spoon, Top 4 3 other times, 7th twice, 6 other seasons without finals. So they make the finals 7/13 = 54% or just over half the seasons.

But don't get me wrong, Souths are definitely traveling better than Tigers. But that's a comparison few clubs struggle with. 2019 will be a real test for Souths because, as I noted, they are very strong chance of losing their Dally M Coach of the Year and they arguably need to improve on the Top 4 finish they achieved in 2018, otherwise they risk slipping back with an aging roster - Inglis is 31, Burgess 29, Reynolds 28, Sutton 33, Cody Walker 28. Even Cookie is 27. Crichton is gone.

I personally think Souths have under-achieved over the last 10 years. They absolutely failed to capitalise on their premiership, almost as badly as Tigers did. Sure they have a big-name owner, but who is the last superstar Rusty Crowe talked into joining the Souths side? The Inglis and Burgess signings were 9 years ago. They let go the current Australian 5/8th and Clive Churchill medalist.

User avatar
WT2K
Member
Member
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu 04 May, 2017 5:18 pm

Post by WT2K » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:42 pm

In my view our board is going about it the right way. If Panthers want Ivan early then pay. The figure will be negotiated and a number agreed upon imo. Can't see Panthers holding out with a rookie coach for two years in their current premiership window.
No more plodders!
:sign:

User avatar
steve-o
Member
Member
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue 14 Sep, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by steve-o » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:53 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 1:40 pm
steve-o wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:02 pm
You’re going back too far in your analysis in my opinion. The game has changed significantly in the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 years. The biggest change that has further shifted the balance of power to a few clubs is the introduction of TPAs. The teams that have access to loads of them are the powerhouses, those that don’t are the battlers. Souths would be #4 in that category behind the 3 clubs discussed. In the 7 season since 2012, Souths have made the playoffs 5 times, 4 of those in the top 4. I don’t need to remind you of the tigers record of that same period. Powerhouse or not, there is a BIG difference in the clout of the Rabbitohs and the Tigers
I'll start by saying we don't know much at all about the value and assignment of TPAs and most of what people like to suggest about TPAs is pure speculation.

NRL did release some figures this year. You claim Souths would be #4 in TPAs behind the 3 clubs I mentioned and you'd be wrong, because Roosters aren't in the Top 3 TPA clubs according to NRL.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/08/30/ret ... e-of-tpas/
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/nrl-da ... 0wayc.html
Melbourne had the highest value of private sector TPAs, totalling $788,000 last season.

Brisbane and Penrith had $550,000 each, while only one other club totalled more than $300,000 and six clubs were below $100,000 in private sector TPAs.
Souths may indeed be #4, in which case you are trying to convince me that Souths have more TPAs registered than Roosters.

And if Souths don't have more TPAs than Roosters, then Souths can only have somewhere between $100-300K as per the article. NRL state that Storm (well not Storm really - Smith and Slater) pull $800K TPAs, Broncos and Panthers a bit over $500K, TEAM X has somewhere over $300K, 10 teams have $100-300K and 6 teams have < $100K.

Maybe I did go back too far in my analysis, but TPAs were introduced in 2006. So let's look at Souths since 2006 - 1 premiership, 1 wooden spoon, Top 4 3 other times, 7th twice, 6 other seasons without finals. So they make the finals 7/13 = 54% or just over half the seasons.

But don't get me wrong, Souths are definitely traveling better than Tigers. But that's a comparison few clubs struggle with. 2019 will be a real test for Souths because, as I noted, they are very strong chance of losing their Dally M Coach of the Year and they arguably need to improve on the Top 4 finish they achieved in 2018, otherwise they risk slipping back with an aging roster - Inglis is 31, Burgess 29, Reynolds 28, Sutton 33, Cody Walker 28. Even Cookie is 27. Crichton is gone.

I personally think Souths have under-achieved over the last 10 years. They absolutely failed to capitalise on their premiership, almost as badly as Tigers did. Sure they have a big-name owner, but who is the last superstar Rusty Crowe talked into joining the Souths side? The Inglis and Burgess signings were 9 years ago. They let go the current Australian 5/8th and Clive Churchill medalist.
You’re having the wool pulled over your eyes if you believe anything regarding TPAs that comes from NRL.com. TPAs may have technically started in 2006, but they did not become a prominent issue until the 2010s. I honestly didn’t read your entire post because it was long and this conversation is at the point where we are just going to go around in circles. Agree to disagree
Year of last finals appearance:
2018 - Roosters, Storm, Rabbitohs, Sharks, Panthers, Broncos, Dragons, Warriors
2017 - Eels, Sea Eagles, Cowboys
2016 - Raiders, Bulldogs, Titans
2013 - Knights
2011 - Tigers

User avatar
Cairnstigers
Member
Member
Posts: 991
Joined: Wed 07 Feb, 2018 10:00 pm

Post by Cairnstigers » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 2:07 pm

I am devastated
We missed out on Des Hasler
I thought we were in with a chance
But Manly have him now

User avatar
TheDaBoss
Member
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue 21 Aug, 2018 8:43 am
Location: C'Town

Post by TheDaBoss » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 2:22 pm

Cairnstigers wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 2:07 pm
I am devastated
We missed out on Des Hasler
I thought we were in with a chance
But Manly have him now
manly for the spoon 2019 :deadhorse:
:sign: + :deadhorse: = Ivan in a nutshell

Post Reply