Our past is killing our future

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Fade To Black
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Re: Our past is killing our future

Post by Fade To Black » Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:51 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:38 pm
Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:26 pm
happy tiger wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 9:23 pm
Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 9:16 pm


In this instance we haven't let Penrith kick sand in our face, we dug our heels in. That's all management can do with that.

We need to jump at the chance at playing out of WSS, that is a no-brainer. The 5 home ground scenario has gotten us nowhere. There is nothing like Leichhardt but it might have to be just a 1 game per season novelty unfortunately. Money is more of a part of modern-day footy than sentiment and history sadly. It sucks.
We will see in regards to Cleary

We talked tough , but the intended person wasn't in earshot .........

We have to walk the walk first , when I see Pascoe warning Gould and telling him to step out the back , I'll pay attention then
Huh? Pascoe warning Gould about what? Technically Gould hasn't broken any rules, morally he has shown himself to be a dirtbag.
Pascoe threaten Gould with physical violence?.....yeah that wouldn't be frowned upon at all and possibly attract legal action :roll:
You've missed my point , until I see Cleary holding a clipboard Day 1 of pre season training we haven't stood our ground on what Pascoe and Go initially said about IC being here until 2021
It would be pure stupidity for our management to force IC to coach us next season just so they can be seen to be standing their ground. Pascoe said originally "Ivan will not be granted an early release for 2019" one would think to show Penrith we weren't going to roll over to suit their needs. This was before Nathan re-signed. Penrith were only interested in luring IC in order to help them keep NC surely? Why else would they be keen for a bloke they sacked in the last few years to return to their club?
It is highly feasible that now they have Nathan shored up, Ivan is no longer in high demand by Penrith.


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Post by steve-o » Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:51 pm

Happy I find it difficult to disagree with your opening post (except the number of coaches - interim coaches don’t count IMO).

A lot of the sentiment in the replies is “the past doesn’t affect the future, we can change etc”... I appreciate the positivity but I think this completely misses the point of what Happy is saying. The last 7 seasons have severely hurt our reputation as a club, particularly the 2014-2016 with Farah/Potter and then JT. We as a club do not have the respect of the league from a footballing perspective - our facilities are notoriously bad, we’re seen as a destination to get a start, not a premiership, and we’ll continue to be an easy target for the media until we can turn this around. Last year three of our best players left, and were replaced with mostly journeymen on long expensive contracts. We don’t seem to be in the conversation whenever top tier talent comes on the market, and this is despite being based in one of the best areas in Sydney. On the positive side, I’d say we have one of the best marketing departments in the league, and we also have a very strong brand.

So can the negatives be improved or turned around? Sure they can. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the various sagas of the last 7 years has had an impact on our forward progress - the best example being the quality of signings made last season despite having sizeable cap space.
Year of last finals appearance:
2018 - Roosters, Storm, Rabbitohs, Sharks, Panthers, Broncos, Dragons, Warriors
2017 - Eels, Sea Eagles, Cowboys
2016 - Raiders, Bulldogs, Titans
2013 - Knights
2011 - Tigers

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Post by happy tiger » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:01 am

steve-o wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:51 pm
Happy I find it difficult to disagree with your opening post (except the number of coaches - interim coaches don’t count IMO).

A lot of the sentiment in the replies is “the past doesn’t affect the future, we can change etc”... I appreciate the positivity but I think this completely misses the point of what Happy is saying. The last 7 seasons have severely hurt our reputation as a club, particularly the 2014-2016 with Farah/Potter and then JT. We as a club do not have the respect of the league from a footballing perspective - our facilities are notoriously bad, we’re seen as a destination to get a start, not a premiership, and we’ll continue to be an easy target for the media until we can turn this around. Last year three of our best players left, and were replaced with mostly journeymen on long expensive contracts. We don’t seem to be in the conversation whenever top tier talent comes on the market, and this is despite being based in one of the best areas in Sydney. On the positive side, I’d say we have one of the best marketing departments in the league, and we also have a very strong brand.

So can the negatives be improved or turned around? Sure they can. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the various sagas of the last 7 years has had an impact on our forward progress - the best example being the quality of signings made last season despite having sizeable cap space.
We only had one interim coach , Webster

Not that 4 coaches possibly 5 in 7 seasons sounds wonderful either

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Post by steve-o » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:06 am

happy tiger wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:01 am
steve-o wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:51 pm
Happy I find it difficult to disagree with your opening post (except the number of coaches - interim coaches don’t count IMO).

A lot of the sentiment in the replies is “the past doesn’t affect the future, we can change etc”... I appreciate the positivity but I think this completely misses the point of what Happy is saying. The last 7 seasons have severely hurt our reputation as a club, particularly the 2014-2016 with Farah/Potter and then JT. We as a club do not have the respect of the league from a footballing perspective - our facilities are notoriously bad, we’re seen as a destination to get a start, not a premiership, and we’ll continue to be an easy target for the media until we can turn this around. Last year three of our best players left, and were replaced with mostly journeymen on long expensive contracts. We don’t seem to be in the conversation whenever top tier talent comes on the market, and this is despite being based in one of the best areas in Sydney. On the positive side, I’d say we have one of the best marketing departments in the league, and we also have a very strong brand.

So can the negatives be improved or turned around? Sure they can. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the various sagas of the last 7 years has had an impact on our forward progress - the best example being the quality of signings made last season despite having sizeable cap space.
We only had one interim coach , Webster

Not that 4 coaches possibly 5 in 7 seasons sounds wonderful either
Yep Webster is who I was referring to. Potentially 5 coaches in 8 seasons
Year of last finals appearance:
2018 - Roosters, Storm, Rabbitohs, Sharks, Panthers, Broncos, Dragons, Warriors
2017 - Eels, Sea Eagles, Cowboys
2016 - Raiders, Bulldogs, Titans
2013 - Knights
2011 - Tigers

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 8:56 am

I think the home ground thing will be remedied very soon. I would not be surprised if we set up camp at WSS long term.

It is important to remember the clubs that gave rise to WT, but I am starting to realise that there may be a point where the past has to be left there and the club needs to make decisions to shore up it's future. I don't think LO and CSS are the answers for a myriad of reasons.
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Post by andrew 474 » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 12:14 pm

Have to agree with the above , 1 game per year at LOC and Campbelltown could be enough , but I do love the old grounds

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Post by prattenparkchild » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 2:25 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 8:56 am
I think the home ground thing will be remedied very soon. I would not be surprised if we set up camp at WSS long term.

It is important to remember the clubs that gave rise to WT, but I am starting to realise that there may be a point where the past has to be left there and the club needs to make decisions to shore up it's future. I don't think LO and CSS are the answers for a myriad of reasons.
I'm not against trialling WSS for the next couple of seasons whilst the other stadiums are rebuilt but I remain very doubtful it will feel anything except Parra's home ground especially with their leagues club next door. Who knows, it may work out, but after the redevelopment of the other stadiums it may make more sense as to feel and location to the league club to move back to Homebush. Like anything money talks,but we do need to make a decision on staying with 1 home ground. I don't think Leichhardt or Campbelltown are in the race for this.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Mon 22 Oct, 2018 2:50 pm

prattenparkchild wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 2:25 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 8:56 am
I think the home ground thing will be remedied very soon. I would not be surprised if we set up camp at WSS long term.

It is important to remember the clubs that gave rise to WT, but I am starting to realise that there may be a point where the past has to be left there and the club needs to make decisions to shore up it's future. I don't think LO and CSS are the answers for a myriad of reasons.
I'm not against trialling WSS for the next couple of seasons whilst the other stadiums are rebuilt but I remain very doubtful it will feel anything except Parra's home ground especially with their leagues club next door. Who knows, it may work out, but after the redevelopment of the other stadiums it may make more sense as to feel and location to the league club to move back to Homebush. Like anything money talks,but we do need to make a decision on staying with 1 home ground. I don't think Leichhardt or Campbelltown are in the race for this.
Fairfield or a redeveloped CSS would be ideal. Who knows, with a Southwest Sydney Football bid CSS might be able to secure some funding to turn it into a 30-35K seater if WT and SWSFC pledge to be full time tenants. Play all games there, maybe have a LO Sunday arvo game against Souths or Easts. Not sure how that will work if we have the COE at Concord but I guess if we were playing 90% of our games in one spot it shouldn't really matter where we train.

Depends on what Ashfield wants overall.
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Cuando llegue el día, y estoy parado a las puertas del cielo, será Dios pidiendo mi perdón...

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Post by Lauren » Wed 24 Oct, 2018 1:57 pm

I expect when Ivan addresses the public on his reasons for jumping ship, they will be along the lines of 1) His desire to coach Nathan was too overwhelming. May even say it was unfair to the Tigers team and fans etc etc.,.2) The club is the right fit for him 3) To establish himself as a coach who only wants to shake off the tag of being a rebuild coach 4) The opportunity to coach the most promising young team with one of the largest junior nurseries. But who cares because we already know that by the end of next year the media are going to twist the immoral actions from the Panthers and Ivan. There'll be stories on his heroics and the bravado from putting his son first over everything, including his integrity. And people will be eating that crap up.
Its tough seeing people on here question and speculate why he'd want to return to the club he was sacked from. Please stop putting yourself through such levels of mental gymnastics as there is absolutely no excuse in the world that makes this right.
Our past is just that so shouldn't be affecting our recruitment. Think someone else said it best, its the club's current Brand that is most influential on these things.
You only have to look at how the Knights are going with their recruitment...after Wooden Spooner's for a period. Sadly only teams such as the Roosters, Broncos and Storms don't pay overs.

Edit: Would like to emphasise that I know our coaching history sucks and is a valid reason for players to be concerned, but believe our current board are trying to overturn this. We need to secure a particular type of coach, who will enforce this as well as their own vision and just hope players who are approached can see this.

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Post by supercoach » Wed 24 Oct, 2018 2:36 pm

Lauren wrote:
Wed 24 Oct, 2018 1:57 pm
I expect when Ivan addresses the public on his reasons for jumping ship, they will be along the lines of 1) His desire to coach Nathan was too overwhelming. May even say it was unfair to the Tigers team and fans etc etc.,.2) The club is the right fit for him 3) To establish himself as a coach who only wants to shake off the tag of being a rebuild coach 4) The opportunity to coach the most promising young team with one of the largest junior nurseries. But who cares because we already know that by the end of next year the media are going to twist the immoral actions from the Panthers and Ivan. There'll be stories on his heroics and the bravado from putting his son first over everything, including his integrity. And people will be eating that crap up.
Its tough seeing people on here question and speculate why he'd want to return to the club he was sacked from. Please stop putting yourself through such levels of mental gymnastics as there is absolutely no excuse in the world that makes this right.
Our past is just that so shouldn't be affecting our recruitment. Think someone else said it best, its the club's current Brand that is most influential on these things.
You only have to look at how the Knights are going with their recruitment...after Wooden Spooner's for a period. Sadly only teams such as the Roosters, Broncos and Storms don't pay overs.

Edit: Would like to emphasise that I know our coaching history sucks and is a valid reason for players to be concerned, but believe our current board are trying to overturn this. We need to secure a particular type of coach, who will enforce this as well as their own vision and just hope players who are approached can see this.
When has Ivan said more than a few words on anything. He will be keeping a very low profile. I just hope the NRL world in general don’t buy into all the stuff about wanting to coach his son, and actually judge him as he really is....and Willo will delete my post if I describe the person he is!!

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Post by Lauren » Wed 24 Oct, 2018 2:50 pm

supercoach wrote:
Wed 24 Oct, 2018 2:36 pm
Lauren wrote:
Wed 24 Oct, 2018 1:57 pm
I expect when Ivan addresses the public on his reasons for jumping ship, they will be along the lines of 1) His desire to coach Nathan was too overwhelming. May even say it was unfair to the Tigers team and fans etc etc.,.2) The club is the right fit for him 3) To establish himself as a coach who only wants to shake off the tag of being a rebuild coach 4) The opportunity to coach the most promising young team with one of the largest junior nurseries. But who cares because we already know that by the end of next year the media are going to twist the immoral actions from the Panthers and Ivan. There'll be stories on his heroics and the bravado from putting his son first over everything, including his integrity. And people will be eating that crap up.
Its tough seeing people on here question and speculate why he'd want to return to the club he was sacked from. Please stop putting yourself through such levels of mental gymnastics as there is absolutely no excuse in the world that makes this right.
Our past is just that so shouldn't be affecting our recruitment. Think someone else said it best, its the club's current Brand that is most influential on these things.
You only have to look at how the Knights are going with their recruitment...after Wooden Spooner's for a period. Sadly only teams such as the Roosters, Broncos and Storms don't pay overs.

Edit: Would like to emphasise that I know our coaching history sucks and is a valid reason for players to be concerned, but believe our current board are trying to overturn this. We need to secure a particular type of coach, who will enforce this as well as their own vision and just hope players who are approached can see this.
When has Ivan said more than a few words on anything. He will be keeping a very low profile. I just hope the NRL world in general don’t buy into all the stuff about wanting to coach his son, and actually judge him as he really is....and Willo will delete my post if I describe the person he is!!
Haha.... Gus has probably already prepared such a statement for Ivan. I think Ivan will be prompt in closing down the media stuff at his son's club though.

Also wanted to say that I didn't realise how many NRL fans/supporters are actually behind Wests Tigers with this whole saga.

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Post by Spud Murphy » Wed 24 Oct, 2018 4:25 pm

supercoach wrote:
Wed 24 Oct, 2018 2:36 pm
Lauren wrote:
Wed 24 Oct, 2018 1:57 pm
I expect when Ivan addresses the public on his reasons for jumping ship, they will be along the lines of 1) His desire to coach Nathan was too overwhelming. May even say it was unfair to the Tigers team and fans etc etc.,.2) The club is the right fit for him 3) To establish himself as a coach who only wants to shake off the tag of being a rebuild coach 4) The opportunity to coach the most promising young team with one of the largest junior nurseries. But who cares because we already know that by the end of next year the media are going to twist the immoral actions from the Panthers and Ivan. There'll be stories on his heroics and the bravado from putting his son first over everything, including his integrity. And people will be eating that crap up.
Its tough seeing people on here question and speculate why he'd want to return to the club he was sacked from. Please stop putting yourself through such levels of mental gymnastics as there is absolutely no excuse in the world that makes this right.
Our past is just that so shouldn't be affecting our recruitment. Think someone else said it best, its the club's current Brand that is most influential on these things.
You only have to look at how the Knights are going with their recruitment...after Wooden Spooner's for a period. Sadly only teams such as the Roosters, Broncos and Storms don't pay overs.

Edit: Would like to emphasise that I know our coaching history sucks and is a valid reason for players to be concerned, but believe our current board are trying to overturn this. We need to secure a particular type of coach, who will enforce this as well as their own vision and just hope players who are approached can see this.
When has Ivan said more than a few words on anything. He will be keeping a very low profile. I just hope the NRL world in general don’t buy into all the stuff about wanting to coach his son, and actually judge him as he really is....and Willo will delete my post if I describe the person he is!!
As much as you would like it to, I think you know that ain't gonna happen eh? Lauren is right, he will be painted as a loving father with strong family bonds, rather than the guy, who shafted his current club mid-contract to join another club, after promising so much when he first came onboard.

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Post by fibrodreaming » Wed 24 Oct, 2018 4:50 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 2:03 pm
I can't help to think that the many things that have happened in the past 7 seasons is killing ANY chance of us EVER becoming a consistent Top 8 side

It is highly likely that as we enter season 2019 we will have our 6th coach in 8 seasons , even if Cleary stays it will be 5 and the 6th has clocked off

Still have at least 3 permanent home grounds , something that most fans DON"T want

Most of the junior talent we produce that reaches 50 NRL games leaves

Most players with an iota of talent we bring into the club rarely re-sign with the club

We let other clubs treat us like the league's wimps and kick sand in our face whenever we have something they want and they just literally take it

We have seen some off field positives , the board , memberships , sponsorship $$$'s but the biggest thing that will help us long term is results and us being thought off as a genuinely strong club

Even after this season's great start , many pundits didn't think we'd kick on and they were proven right

Personally if we don't get Bennett I see at least 3 more years of pain and suffering for fans

Ask your mates/friends/family what they think of the WT's , most like us as a club but think we are the permanent also rans

Thoughts??

Didn't Jack Gibson say "winning starts in the front office" ? I think the management of the WT is the best it has been - in saying that, I don't think I'm damning it with faint praise.

With our administration in order, and with a quality coach going forward, I can see success on the field following.

That said, I'm aware that WT supporters have become very good at looking forward to a brighter tomorrow (because our present has always been so painfully disappointing).

But the fundamental key to a successful club is good management, and I think that with the current administration, we are getting there.

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Post by The Patriot » Wed 24 Oct, 2018 6:21 pm

Every single issue is related to lack of quality coaching.

We have selected some dud coaches.

Hire the right coach and it all corrects itself pretty soon.
Its an opinion!

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Post by Donald Trump » Thu 25 Oct, 2018 7:39 am

True the future can’t be determined by the past however perception is reality. If we have a track record of being a basket case, we will be perceived that way.

First way to change this is getting clarity to who our new coach is. Until then you wouldn’t blame players from other clubs avoiding coming to us. You could extend that to sponsors as well. They would still be hesitant.

Reputation is everything.
Let's make the Tigers great again!

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Post by Geo. » Thu 25 Oct, 2018 1:28 pm

Donald Trump wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 7:39 am
True the future can’t be determined by the past however perception is reality. If we have a track record of being a basket case, we will be perceived that way.

First way to change this is getting clarity to who our new coach is. Until then you wouldn’t blame players from other clubs avoiding coming to us. You could extend that to sponsors as well. They would still be hesitant.

Reputation is everything.
Yet we had our shorts sponser recently extend their support ..go figure...
Wests Tigers don't need a Coach.. The playing group has taken over..
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 12:17 am

OK I was wrong

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Post by TIGERPOWER » Thu 25 Oct, 2018 9:05 pm

Geo. wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 1:28 pm
Donald Trump wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 7:39 am
True the future can’t be determined by the past however perception is reality. If we have a track record of being a basket case, we will be perceived that way.

First way to change this is getting clarity to who our new coach is. Until then you wouldn’t blame players from other clubs avoiding coming to us. You could extend that to sponsors as well. They would still be hesitant.

Reputation is everything.
Yet we had our shorts sponser recently extend their support ..go figure...
Yet your calling for Pascoes head... go figure.....

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Post by Geo. » Thu 25 Oct, 2018 9:59 pm

TIGERPOWER wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 9:05 pm
Geo. wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 1:28 pm
Donald Trump wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 7:39 am
True the future can’t be determined by the past however perception is reality. If we have a track record of being a basket case, we will be perceived that way.

First way to change this is getting clarity to who our new coach is. Until then you wouldn’t blame players from other clubs avoiding coming to us. You could extend that to sponsors as well. They would still be hesitant.

Reputation is everything.
Yet we had our shorts sponser recently extend their support ..go figure...
Yet your calling for Pascoes head... go figure.....
Oh someone doesn't get tounge in cheek..lol hehe lol...
Wests Tigers don't need a Coach.. The playing group has taken over..
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 12:17 am

OK I was wrong

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