Aussies 2018 tour of South Africa Spoilers

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Tigerstruck
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Re: Aussies 2018 tour of South Africa Spoilers

Post by Tigerstruck » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:50 am

After watching the Steve smith press conference last night, I realised how insignificant this whole ball tampering scandal really is. Even though I'm still of the opinion that we need harsh penalties for these three guys, as cheating can't be accepted, it made me think that there are other sports players, especially in league, that have gone out and bashed people, raped women etc. and they're still playing (Matt Lodge comes to mind). Of course, ball tampering is bad, and we can't accept cheating in cricket or sport in general, but all he did was turn a blind eye to Bancroft and Warner concocting their own plan, and he's now being put through hell. Once he's punishment is finished, we need to forgive him and start again.
Same with Bancroft, he was just doing what he could to keep his spot in the team. And again its wrong what he did, but when it comes down to it, I think 9 out of 10 people in his position would have done the same thing.
Warner is the only one I don't feel sorry for, as he has been behind the negative culture in the team, and by the sounds of things at the moment, the one who created the whole plan. He's a grub. and one we don't need in our national team.
The penalties IMO are fair, especially after their denial of what they were doing, but I do think we need to stop giving these guys so much stick and get on with the cricket, as they still have a whole test to play!


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Post by Bee-Em » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 12:23 pm

Tigerstruck wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:50 am
After watching the Steve smith press conference last night, I realised how insignificant this whole ball tampering scandal really is. Even though I'm still of the opinion that we need harsh penalties for these three guys, as cheating can't be accepted, it made me think that there are other sports players, especially in league, that have gone out and bashed people, raped women etc. and they're still playing (Matt Lodge comes to mind). Of course, ball tampering is bad, and we can't accept cheating in cricket or sport in general, but all he did was turn a blind eye to Bancroft and Warner concocting their own plan, and he's now being put through hell. Once he's punishment is finished, we need to forgive him and start again.
Same with Bancroft, he was just doing what he could to keep his spot in the team. And again its wrong what he did, but when it comes down to it, I think 9 out of 10 people in his position would have done the same thing.
Warner is the only one I don't feel sorry for, as he has been behind the negative culture in the team, and by the sounds of things at the moment, the one who created the whole plan. He's a grub. and one we don't need in our national team.
The penalties IMO are fair, especially after their denial of what they were doing, but I do think we need to stop giving these guys so much stick and get on with the cricket, as they still have a whole test to play!
Spot on

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Post by fibrodreaming » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 1:23 pm

Tigerstruck wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:50 am
Of course, ball tampering is bad, and we can't accept cheating in cricket or sport in general,
I agree. Although it appears that the ICC don't regard it as a very serious offence. It's on a par with deliberate time wasting and showing serious dissent at an umpire's decision.

Perhaps one reason the ICC don't regard it as particularly serious is that, in the past, ball tampering was so widespread. Even today, all teams return the ball to the keeper on the bounce in order to rough the ball up, which they are not supposed to do, although it is hard to police.

It's interesting that of all the famous ball tampering charges in recent times - Atherton, Tendulkar, Afridi; and Faf (twice), the Australians were the only ones to admit to the charge. The others denied their intention was to alter the state of the ball.

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Post by Nelson » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 1:29 pm

fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 1:23 pm
Tigerstruck wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:50 am
Of course, ball tampering is bad, and we can't accept cheating in cricket or sport in general,
I agree. Although it appears that the ICC don't regard it as a very serious offence. It's on a par with deliberate time wasting and showing serious dissent at an umpire's decision.

Perhaps one reason the ICC don't regard it as particularly serious is that, in the past, ball tampering was so widespread. Even today, all teams return the ball to the keeper on the bounce in order to rough the ball up, which they are not supposed to do, although it is hard to police.

It's interesting that of all the famous ball tampering charges in recent times - Atherton, Tendulkar, Afridi; and Faf (twice), the Australians were the only ones to admit to the charge. The others denied their intention was to alter the state of the ball.
Pretty hard to deny it when you're caught with sandpaper on the field.

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Post by diedpretty » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 1:47 pm

tig_prmz wrote:
Wed 28 Mar, 2018 10:42 pm
here's my 2 cents worth

12 month bans are extremely harsh on "legal terms". the australian media and public has been definitely over the top with this.

BIG however,

i havent been impressed with the aussie team's behaviour for a long time. the arrogant, holier than thou, up themselves attitude and bullying was the "culture" of the team personified highly by warner. i noticed it more and more during lehmann's tenure.

i really appreciate most of the players' toughness honestly- people like starc, pattinson, cummins etc have had multiple injuries but come back bigger, stronger and faster. you need a lot of mental toughness for that but the aussies have shown no humility when winning or losing. there is a serious lack of respect for other countries, and i repeat this hasn't been there forever- i can see how these player speak in the media and except warner there are humble and down to earth people.

smith definitely doesn't deserve what he got, i used to love watching him bat for nsw after his first stint in the baggy green.

if CA goes on to expain that these bans are over the whole attitude issue with the team i'll cop it, but they cannot possibly ban players based on what we know.

now as for lehmann, i honestly do not see how he didnt know. he was guilty as charged over the walkie talkie and what about peter handcomb SURELYYY he has to be charged for telling bancroft..

as for warner, idk if it was pre-planned or what and im certainly not gonna base the ashes victory on this but a serious investigation has to be done about when the aussies started reverse swinging the kookaburra coz of the middle order collapses in the ashes and ever since warner started wearing tape on his finger a year ago (incidentally when he broke his finger). i read elsewhere that his fingers were in the cameras a lot in the 2nd test- and behold bancroft took over the "ball shining" duties from the next test. a serious investigation needs to be carried out if CA is actually serious about this and not just doing it coz of the overreaction of media and fans.

that's all.
I agree - it has been blown out of all proportion by the media - yep it was wrong - the ICC handed down their punishment that was pretty standard for something that happens on numerous occasions. I can understand the ACB handing a separate punishment but the length is ridiculous and appears to be done to appease the media and sponsors. The CBA has pulled Smiths sponsorship because they don't like a cheat!!! - What a joke - this organisation has lied and cheated people out of money for years - put the thing in perspective - they scuffed up a cricket ball and got caught - big deal.


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Post by fibrodreaming » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 1:59 pm

Nelson wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 1:29 pm
fibrodreaming wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 1:23 pm
Tigerstruck wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:50 am
Of course, ball tampering is bad, and we can't accept cheating in cricket or sport in general,
I agree. Although it appears that the ICC don't regard it as a very serious offence. It's on a par with deliberate time wasting and showing serious dissent at an umpire's decision.

Perhaps one reason the ICC don't regard it as particularly serious is that, in the past, ball tampering was so widespread. Even today, all teams return the ball to the keeper on the bounce in order to rough the ball up, which they are not supposed to do, although it is hard to police.

It's interesting that of all the famous ball tampering charges in recent times - Atherton, Tendulkar, Afridi; and Faf (twice), the Australians were the only ones to admit to the charge. The others denied their intention was to alter the state of the ball.
Pretty hard to deny it when you're caught with sandpaper on the field.
They were all caught red handed. Didn't stop them from denying it. Interestingly, Bancroft was not done for ball tampering, because the umpires did not believe the condition of the ball had been altered. He was done for an intention to alter the state of the ball.

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Post by gallagher » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 2:00 pm

If cheating while representing your country is no big deal then being banned from representing your county must also be no big deal.

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Post by Telltails » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 2:05 pm

Just like all sports these days cheating in any form is hard to get away with, and scrutinized far more harshly thanks to social media. So if you roll the dice, you would have to question the motivation in taking the risk.

Sporting bodies dont have the ability to deal with anything in house anymore, but the reaction to this is as if its some shocking isolated incident from those with selective memories, and or those who have the propensity to enforce the moral high ground under the guise that they are beyond ever making a regrettable decision, is a sad indicment of the times we live in.
If we are so vocal in publically shaming our sports people when losing, then maybe we shouldn't be so mortified or shocked when they make an err in judgment, in an attempt to cheat to increase their chances of winning.

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Post by happy tiger » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:24 pm

And back to the actual game Saffas 166-2

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Post by hobbo » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:26 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:24 pm
And back to the actual game Saffas 166-2
How does the ball look ?
We need mongrel ..
No more plodders !

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Post by Chicken Faced Killa » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:28 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:24 pm
And back to the actual game Saffas 166-2
Time to get the sandpaper out boys

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Post by Chicken Faced Killa » Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:31 pm

Chicken Faced Killa wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:28 pm
happy tiger wrote:
Fri 30 Mar, 2018 11:24 pm
And back to the actual game Saffas 166-2
Time to get the sandpaper out boys
In all seriousness though this Markram is a real talent. His batted very well and will be around for a long time yet.

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Post by Sabre » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 11:32 am

The non-answering of questions from Warner in his press conference just now doesn't look good.

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Post by hobbo » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 11:35 am

Sabre wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 11:32 am
The non-answering of questions from Warner in his press conference just now doesn't look good.
Warner's full of it .
We need mongrel ..
No more plodders !

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Post by Chevy » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 11:53 am

He gave little away,admitted he was involved but refused to elaborate any further on who came up with the idea or if anyone else was involved.
If it was his idea, he may have been better off to have put his hand up and admit it,laying this saga to rest rather then allowing this drama to continue.

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Post by tig_prmz » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 1:28 pm

Mickey Arthur's take on it. It's a long but really good read

https://www.playersvoice.com.au/mickey- ... 2uJE9rT.97
Home > Sports > Cricket
Unfortunately, it was always going to end like this.



Despite generational change, independent reviews and too many behavioural spotfires to list, Cricket Australia and the national team had demonstrated no real willingness or desire to improve the culture within their organisation from season to season.



That could lead to only one conclusion.



An explosion.



A deterioration of standards that would culminate in an incident so bad, so ugly, that it would shame the leaders of the organisation into taking drastic action to change the culture, or risk alienating fans, sponsors, broadcasters and other stakeholders.



It gives me no pleasure to say this. Indeed, for the period between 2011 and 2013 it was my job, as national team coach, to make the very changes I just mentioned were needed.



That I wasn’t able to advance that cause disappoints me. I am not for a moment saying I was blameless. There are decisions I would change if I had my time again. But there were other factors at play, factors that have long been associated with Australian cricket.



Factors that came to a head at Newlands.





THE PROBLEM WITH ‘THE LINE’
This is a sad day for the three players involved but, in many ways, it might ultimately be seen as a positive day for the Australian team and cricket generally.



It couldn’t keep going the way it had been.



I have been bitterly disappointed watching the Australian cricket team over the last few years. The behaviour has been boorish and arrogant. The way they’ve gone about their business hasn’t been good, and it hasn’t been good for a while.



I know what my Pakistani players were confronted with in Australia two summers ago. I heard some of the things said to the English players during the Ashes. It was scandalous. And I have seen many incidents like Nathan Lyon throwing the ball at AB de Villiers in this series.



There has been no need for the Australians to play this way.



They are wonderful cricketers. They haven’t needed to stoop to the depths they have to get results. They’re good enough to win cricket games with their skills and talents without being abusive and threatening their opposition.



image: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/wp-cont ... TICLE4.jpg

Mickey Arthur celebrates with the Australian team after beating India in a 2012 Test match


It has reflected poorly on them and served only to injure the spirit of cricket and bring down the tone of this great game.



And I’ve hated this talk about ‘the line’. What is the line? Who sets it? Who dictates how it is enforced? It is totally different culture-to-culture, yet the Australians believe they’re the ones who should be setting it? That it’s OK to intimidate a person from another country, another culture during the day and be buddies with him afterwards? Nonsense.



The Aussies have played the victim when they deem the other team has overstepped the mark. And when they’ve been in the ascendancy and behaved badly, everything is OK because they have determined as much.



The line, whatever it is, has to be determined by the ICC and the laws must be abided by. It’s not for Lyon to ‘headbutt’ against.



I see very little in the way of personal responsibility within the Australian team. Cameron Bancroft and Steve Smith admitted what they had done at a press conference, but they didn’t have much choice. They had been caught red-handed. And even then, they didn’t come completely clean. They said they had used an adhesive tape on the ball when Cricket Australia’s own investigation ruled that it had been sandpaper.



Every other Test playing nation feels Australia looks down at them and I say this as someone who has coached two of them. I don’t know if this attitude is because the Aussies get paid more money – some of them earn in a Test what many of my Pakistani players earn in a year – or because they think they’re better cricketers, or that they live in a beautiful country with great facilities.



Whatever it is, it’s regrettable.



I have been bitterly disappointed watching the Australian cricket team over the last few years. The behaviour has been boorish and arrogant.



There was an article today in one of the UK newspapers with a headline stating, ‘David Warner is the most hated man in the most hated team in the world’. Today, that is 100% right. It’s a real pity. There isn’t a lot of sympathy around the cricket world for the Australians right now.



I get the sense that the Australian team felt like it had become untouchable. It was going to take something massive to change that. Now that has happened.



Having worked with the Aussies, I know they are generally good guys. I had a really good relationship with Davey Warner. He was a real project for me as coach. I thought he was past all this bulldust. And Steve Smith eats, breathes and sleeps cricket. He was very proud to have been leading Australia. Losing the captaincy will be devastating for him.



But I think the sanctions imposed, tough as they are, are the right ones. Cricket Australia needed to make a stand. These guys were the leaders. They were responsible for what transpired.



So here we are. A cultural issue that should’ve been addressed a long time ago wasn’t. It has all gone bang. And Smith, Warner and Cam Bancroft have been punished for it.



image: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/wp-cont ... TICLE3.jpg

Pakistan head coach Mickey Arthur shakes hands with Australia captain Steve Smith




THE LESSONS OF HOMEWORK-GATE
I had seen Australian cricket from the outside, as coach of South Africa, and the inside, as coach of Western Australia, before taking over from Tim Nielsen in 2011.



I was aware of the cultural issues within the national team.



Those early Australian teams we came up against with the Proteas were some of the greatest of all time. They strutted around because they were never going to lose. Then we started winning and they entered a transition period, but the sense of entitlement remained unchanged.



I was appointed as head coach off the back of Australia’s home Ashes defeat in 2010-11 and the Argus review that followed.



I was an outsider – the first non-Australian to coach the national team – and I was commissioned to come in and try to change the culture. Discipline had started to slip.



Ultimately, I wasn’t able to achieve that. I’m not exonerated of blame here. I could’ve handled things differently. The suspensions over ‘Homework-gate’ were probably excessive. I could’ve listened to more people. By the time I was sacked before the 2013 Ashes, it wasn’t working.



But there were other issues at play as well.



I’m Australian now, I’ve got my passport, but back then I wasn’t. I didn’t fit in. I hadn’t come through the Australian system and played 100 Tests. I wasn’t part of the old boys’ club.



I was told I didn’t understand the Australian way.



What I did understand was that successful teams are made up of very good individuals – good, solid characters – who pull in one direction and strive to attain the ultimate result together. You might have one or two difficult personalities, but you can manage those because the system doesn’t allow them to get away with too much.



Australia was different. The players, in many ways, were a law unto themselves. When I pushed hard on issues of culture, I was told by my superiors to back off. And when I softened my approach, I was told to go in harder.



I think the sanctions imposed, tough as they are, are the right ones. Cricket Australia needed to make a stand.



Parameters were never set and the goalposts kept moving. It was a challenging environment in which to try to reset the culture.



The warning signs were there from the start. Disrespect from the players towards support staff. Arriving late for team commitments. Moaning. It was always CA’s fault, or someone else’s. I used to say, ‘Guys, it’s time to look into the mirror. What you will see is not perfect. Consider that before you cast judgements on others.’



‘Homework-gate’ was an attempt at a line-in-the-sand moment.



The thing with ‘Homework-gate’ was that there was no homework. We had lost the second Test against India and all we wanted from our players were three sentences of self-assessment. ‘Coach, I need more spin bowlers in my nets,’ or, ‘Coach, I need to work on my sweep shot,’ or, ‘I need to work on my defence out of the rough.’



The purpose of sourcing this information was to structure our training sessions around what the players wanted to make sure they were in the best possible space for the third Test.



Four guys didn’t submit their answers. In hindsight, suspending them was probably too harsh. The punishment didn’t fit the crime. But, at that point in time, I was sick and tired at having to constantly harp on about our culture, attitude and professionalism.



I ran the risk as head coach of potentially losing four players, or losing the captain and my support staff, all of whom were unanimous in saying we needed to take a stand on this issue. Ultimately, I made the decision and, if I had my time again, I probably would have made a different one.



When you strip it all back, however, it was an attempt to reboot the team’s attitude and culture. ‘We’ll be right, we’ll rock up to nets and we’ll be fine. We’re the Australian cricket team.’ It was letting us down and it needed to change.



To me, the episode was a microcosm of a problem that remains with the Australian team to this day: the sense of entitlement among the players.



image: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/wp-cont ... TICLE1.jpg

Mickey Arthur chats with Michael Clarke at a nets session




REPAIRING THE DAMAGE
The final straw for my coaching tenure with Australia was Davey Warner punching Joe Root at the Walkabout pub in Birmingham during the Champions Trophy.



I didn’t find out about the incident until two days after it happened, and only then because of a disagreement between two players in regards to our fines committee.



I won’t retell the story – it’s all been reported many times – other than to say I phoned James Sutherland the night I learned of what happened.



He castigated me for not knowing about it earlier. I was like, ‘How the hell am I supposed to know about it if no one tells me? I’m not hanging around the Walkabout at 1am’.



In frustration, I said something along the lines of, ‘Do you want me to carry on holding their hands or take action?’.



I was out of a job shortly after.



I wasn’t happy with how it was all handled at the time, but I am at peace with it now. James, Pat Howard and I still catch up from time-to-time.



Darren Lehmann was brought in to replace me. I’ve got a lot of admiration for Darren. I think he’s a damn fine coach. But the impression I got was, at a period in time where they could’ve been addressing the broader issue of team culture, Cricket Australia were instead intent on bringing in an Aussie knockabout for beers at the bar at 6pm, telling stories about yesteryear, everyone sitting around the campfire and having a laugh and going to bed happy.



It was going to be hard to make meaningful change in that environment.



I’ll admit that I was bitterly disappointed when I watched the ball tampering incident on television. Again, these guys are good blokes.



They’re not villains. That the culture within the team led them to believe this was an acceptable course of action is the great pity of this whole, sorry saga.



Every team I have coached has tried to get the ball to reverse swing. But they do it legally. I have been amazed in Pakistan at how skilful the players are in this regard. The difference between tampering the ball and shining the ball is huge. I have never seen any object on a cricket field being used to alter the condition. That’s taking it way too far.



The Aussies didn’t need to do this, but they did. It’s the result of an issue that had been festering away and should’ve been addressed a long time ago. It was always going to end this way. An incident like this had to happen for the necessary cultural shift to take place.



Australian cricket has been in an ivory tower for too long. They had to take decisive action. If they didn’t, things would inevitably return to the way they had been and another major incident would’ve been inevitable.



The job to repair the damage to the Australian cricket brand is underway.



By doing so, Cricket Australia might just improve the tone and standard of the way the game is played around the world.


Mickey Arthur - Contributor

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My Round 1 Team 2018

1. lolo 2. noffa 3. suli 4. milne 5. fonua
6. reynolds 7. brooks
8. packer 9. ET 10. Twal
11. McQuen 12. Lawrence 13. Eiso
14. Matulino 15. McIllwrick 16. Sue 17. Aloiai
18. Marsters 19. Benji 20. Grant 21. K Naiqama
Next: Liddle, MCK, Felise, MWZ, Thompson, Rochow, Gamble

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Post by southerntiger » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 1:32 pm

Good to read Arthur's view. However, none of this is surprising. It was well known that the culture of the Australian team was terrible. They were an embarrassment on the world stage for 15 years.

The CA board's failure to correct this means they are partly responsible for the consequences that we saw this week.

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Post by Pawsandclaws » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 1:56 pm

Cummins is our best player and he should be captain.

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