Broses

TrueTiger
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Re: Broses

Post by TrueTiger » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 8:02 am

jirskyr wrote:I think they got a fair bit of ordinary service from dummy half and Parra pressured the halves very well.

I feel we shut out Foran and Corey Norman probably just as effectively as they shut out Broses, and Forman are supposed to be one of the form combinations in the comp. In fact I thought Parra were fairly average in attack, just one bad read was the difference and Paulo had a wow of a game.

BUT - Broses have to learn to stop executing plays when they have clearly come unstuck. Today was a lot of passes behind the runner and poorly thought-out kicks, straight from the Benji Marshall handbook.

Very occasionally they tuck the ball under the arm and run - and I don't know why. They should both run more, otherwise defenses learn to hang off and pick up Tedesco coming around. Also if the play goes to put, take a hit-up boys, that what halves are supposed to do.

We don't play direct enough when the opposition defence holds. stryker got it all right as OP, we are flat-track bullies against ragged defensive lines. But quality defence, which is what we would face in September, really fatigues and frustrates our halves, and they just turn the trick shots up a bit more.

And without wanting to go back too much into 2015 arguments, it certainly gives credit to the idea of why JT wanted to reign Broses in a bit. They can attack sure, we've all seen it, but it doesn't always click and they can have really unacceptable lean streaks at times. You can't take the infrequent flogging of some sides, even some quality sides, as an indicator that the halves should just be allowed to attack as they see fit. They are still immature and don't know how to take control of tight games on a consistent basis.

PS did you see Parra 5 hit-ups and bomb on 6th for 90% of the game?

I actually was going to mention that JT must have paid a visit to the Eels training session this week......the Eels played a hell of a lot of Taylor ball yesterday...
You may see me struggle...but you will never see me quit... :D


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Post by greatodensraven » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 8:45 am

TrueTiger wrote:
jirskyr wrote:I think they got a fair bit of ordinary service from dummy half and Parra pressured the halves very well.

I feel we shut out Foran and Corey Norman probably just as effectively as they shut out Broses, and Forman are supposed to be one of the form combinations in the comp. In fact I thought Parra were fairly average in attack, just one bad read was the difference and Paulo had a wow of a game.

BUT - Broses have to learn to stop executing plays when they have clearly come unstuck. Today was a lot of passes behind the runner and poorly thought-out kicks, straight from the Benji Marshall handbook.

Very occasionally they tuck the ball under the arm and run - and I don't know why. They should both run more, otherwise defenses learn to hang off and pick up Tedesco coming around. Also if the play goes to put, take a hit-up boys, that what halves are supposed to do.

We don't play direct enough when the opposition defence holds. stryker got it all right as OP, we are flat-track bullies against ragged defensive lines. But quality defence, which is what we would face in September, really fatigues and frustrates our halves, and they just turn the trick shots up a bit more.

And without wanting to go back too much into 2015 arguments, it certainly gives credit to the idea of why JT wanted to reign Broses in a bit. They can attack sure, we've all seen it, but it doesn't always click and they can have really unacceptable lean streaks at times. You can't take the infrequent flogging of some sides, even some quality sides, as an indicator that the halves should just be allowed to attack as they see fit. They are still immature and don't know how to take control of tight games on a consistent basis.

PS did you see Parra 5 hit-ups and bomb on 6th for 90% of the game?

I actually was going to mention that JT must have paid a visit to the Eels training session this week......the Eels played a hell of a lot of Taylor ball yesterday...

This is a credit to our defence!

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Post by goldcoast tiger » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 8:46 am

One big difference was that when Parra put the kick up they actually had players there when Teddy got the ball and put some good pressure on him,which fortunately, he handled well
Our kicks looked like no one knew that they were on, as , mostly there was no pressure on Parras receivers
And what the hell was that midfield bomb about , just dumb
At the rate these halves are going, they'll still be rookies at 30.

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Post by greatodensraven » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 8:52 am

stryker wrote:The game is being replayed right now.
I'm just watching them at present and it is true that they had very good games in defence. I am not convinced Luke's heart isn't with us and his head is elsewhere...he tackled like a demon which he didn't do at all last year when most of the time he was a fresh air hand grabber. Moses has always had a go in defence as far as I'm concerned and did so all game today again.

It's their ideas about how you finish off a set that angers me. They regularly turn the ball over in cheap fashion with useless chip kicks or just heave the ball wide with no real plan expecting the outside men will create something. It never seems to cross their minds that building pressure on your opposition with repeat sets or kicks to the corners with good kick chases, trapping their wingers on their own line will fatigue their packs. That you don't have to score 10 tries to dominate your opposition. That a well executed plan trumps x factor brilliance on most occasions.

I claimed we'd make the 8 before the season started mainly because of these two and their combinations with Ted. I still think it's possible but these two haven't matured as playmakers as I had hoped. They do brilliant things but cant control games and closeout opposition. There's still time to correct their games but they are a concern presently.

You make some great points here mate. In particular how Broses don't seem to understand how to mount pressure on the opposition. How unlikely & even uncomfortable did we look when we had the ball in the opposition 20? I was expecting us to knock-on just about every time we had a few tackles up our sleeve in their red zone. It's almost as if we forget how to score tries if we haven't done something amazing to get into a scoring position. Broses & even Teddy definitely need to learn some patience. I guess this comes with maturity so hopefully they pick it up soon. Farah should be able to help but then we've never been known for our patience in attack.

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Post by Byron Bay Fan » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 9:01 am

greatodensraven wrote:
stryker wrote:The game is being replayed right now.
I'm just watching them at present and it is true that they had very good games in defence. I am not convinced Luke's heart isn't with us and his head is elsewhere...he tackled like a demon which he didn't do at all last year when most of the time he was a fresh air hand grabber. Moses has always had a go in defence as far as I'm concerned and did so all game today again.

It's their ideas about how you finish off a set that angers me. They regularly turn the ball over in cheap fashion with useless chip kicks or just heave the ball wide with no real plan expecting the outside men will create something. It never seems to cross their minds that building pressure on your opposition with repeat sets or kicks to the corners with good kick chases, trapping their wingers on their own line will fatigue their packs. That you don't have to score 10 tries to dominate your opposition. That a well executed plan trumps x factor brilliance on most occasions.

I claimed we'd make the 8 before the season started mainly because of these two and their combinations with Ted. I still think it's possible but these two haven't matured as playmakers as I had hoped. They do brilliant things but cant control games and closeout opposition. There's still time to correct their games but they are a concern presently.

You make some great points here mate. In particular how Broses don't seem to understand how to mount pressure on the opposition. How unlikely & even uncomfortable did we look when we had the ball in the opposition 20? I was expecting us to knock-on just about every time we had a few tackles up our sleeve in their red zone. It's almost as if we forget how to score tries if we haven't done something amazing to get into a scoring position. Broses & even Teddy definitely need to learn some patience. I guess this comes with maturity so hopefully they pick it up soon. Farah should be able to help but then we've never been known for our patience in attack.
well spoken. Patience in chess is vital as in soccer too I imagine. Hitler's lack of such was also his undoing. Have often thought there should be 8 or even 10 tackles before handover to encourage more thoughtful and consistent football.
Malcolm Knox: What has happened this week is a pity for the Tigers, a pity for Jason Taylor and a pity for Robbie Farah, who had achieved more than the Big Four put together but was somehow turned into collateral damage. (SMH 25-26 March, 2017)


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Post by goldcoast tiger » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 9:48 am

Could someone please knock it into both halves heads, that sometimes it's a good thing to just roll the ball in to the oppositions in goal area, with a chance of getting the ball again from the restart, rather than the big play every time they get near the line.
It'd be a good thing for someone to whisper in their ear that their asking price is going down each time they play like 5 game rookies, they have to start to take responsibility for these inept games that they have too often.
IMO not having any consequences for their previous bad games has allowed them to get this "we can't be dropped no matter what" attitude.

Thank you JT

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Post by InBenjiWeTrust » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 9:56 am

and our experienced ex-captain has brain explosion and kicks on 3rd tackle, and they score :crazy

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Post by sunshine coast tiger » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 10:01 am

Fade To Black wrote:Their kicking games in all probability will never improve- you either have that skill or you don't, our halves don't. Worst thing that could of happened was Moses pulling a great kick out of his arse against Manly- he now thinks he can do it regularly and he hasn't pulled off a decent kick in the 2 games since, neither has Brooks.
A good kicking game is just so vital in the NRL these days it is suicide to persist with blokes who have below-pitiful kicking games. I would nearly swap Soward for either of our halves ATM.
100% this. Our halves kicking game is very ordinary and has been for a long time. The midfield bomb make no sense to me. A great kicker like Sterling would have found the corner all day yesterday and tired out the opposition deep in their half.

Do we have a kicking coach? it doesn't look like it. I believe whilst both may not be blessed with good long range kicking games with hard work they could improve.

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Post by barra » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 10:23 am

Options and depth. These are the aspects that Broses need to work on.

The opposition realises that if they get up quickly and in their face that Broses don't deal with it too well. So somehow they need to give themselves that extra half-second so they are not caught early.

They also need to learn to take better options. Sometimes they kick when they should pass and they often pass when they shouldn't... I feel they actually continue to execute a pre-determined play rather than looking at the opposition defensive line and adjust what they should do accordingly. Way too many poor options and bad executions because of it.

I didn't think their kicking game was terrible but I do think that our chase was ordinary, the team rarely applied any pressure at all on the last tackle.

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Post by Balmain Boy » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 11:14 am

greatodensraven wrote:
stryker wrote:The game is being replayed right now.
I'm just watching them at present and it is true that they had very good games in defence. I am not convinced Luke's heart isn't with us and his head is elsewhere...he tackled like a demon which he didn't do at all last year when most of the time he was a fresh air hand grabber. Moses has always had a go in defence as far as I'm concerned and did so all game today again.

It's their ideas about how you finish off a set that angers me. They regularly turn the ball over in cheap fashion with useless chip kicks or just heave the ball wide with no real plan expecting the outside men will create something. It never seems to cross their minds that building pressure on your opposition with repeat sets or kicks to the corners with good kick chases, trapping their wingers on their own line will fatigue their packs. That you don't have to score 10 tries to dominate your opposition. That a well executed plan trumps x factor brilliance on most occasions.

I claimed we'd make the 8 before the season started mainly because of these two and their combinations with Ted. I still think it's possible but these two haven't matured as playmakers as I had hoped. They do brilliant things but cant control games and closeout opposition. There's still time to correct their games but they are a concern presently.

You make some great points here mate. In particular how Broses don't seem to understand how to mount pressure on the opposition. How unlikely & even uncomfortable did we look when we had the ball in the opposition 20? I was expecting us to knock-on just about every time we had a few tackles up our sleeve in their red zone. It's almost as if we forget how to score tries if we haven't done something amazing to get into a scoring position. Broses & even Teddy definitely need to learn some patience. I guess this comes with maturity so hopefully they pick it up soon. Farah should be able to help but then we've never been known for our patience in attack.
I don't think it's that they don't understand how to mount pressure, it's repeated poor execution which lets them down. They try to put grubbers into the in goal area but they're usually poorly directed and end up going 2m and straight into an opposition player or are way too heavy and go dead.

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Post by Russell » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 11:18 am

Back to being whipping boys again. Amazing what a couple of lost games brings out.

Can understand the disappointment - I have it too. In my opinion most are being too hard on them (they deserve some agro but...), they are still very young (yes,yes - same ole excuse, potential, potential etc. etc.). However they are not a forward like Klemmer as an example that only has to learn to put the ball under his arm and run as fast and as hard as he can into the opposition.

Being a half and 5/8 (playmakers) are the two most difficult positions to learn on the field. For starters, you are usually a bit smaller so the opposition runs their big guys at you for most of the game (Thought they improved in this department yesterday). Then you need to think quickly on your feet of what options you have
- do I pass left, right, short, long, kick soft to the ingoal, kick to the corner, put up a bomb, do I have a back rower running a good line, is there a decoy runner that is going to get in the way etc. They have to do this in split seconds. If they don't get the ball quickly, they get creamed or take the wrong option. Standing back is not the complete answer, it gives you more time, yes - it also gives the opposition more time to counter your strategy. The forwards for most of yesterday did well, and probably won the day but.... a lot of inexperience without Grant, Lawrence and Sironen. No one was running good lines to give that option.

Look, I am not saying they are faultless but there are reasons for their indecision as outlined above (am sure you all know that anyway), such as getting slow ball ( and the passes need to good), not running to the line often enough themselves, their kicking game needs to be improved substantially - we know all this as well but they are still young and inexperienced. This is not an excuse but they are not going to be Andrew Johns or Peter Sterling whilst they are 21. They need help and time.

I think the Tigers need to put a few bob aside from Harry and get Johns, Fittler or an equally brilliant player to teach/mentor them in kicking etc. (should have been done ages ago) or this is going to take more time than most on here are going to allow.

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Post by TrueTiger » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 12:08 pm

Russell wrote:Back to being whipping boys again. Amazing what a couple of lost games brings out.

Can understand the disappointment - I have it too. In my opinion most are being too hard on them (they deserve some agro but...), they are still very young (yes,yes - same ole excuse, potential, potential etc. etc.). However they are not a forward like Klemmer as an example that only has to learn to put the ball under his arm and run as fast and as hard as he can into the opposition.

Being a half and 5/8 (playmakers) are the two most difficult positions to learn on the field. For starters, you are usually a bit smaller so the opposition runs their big guys at you for most of the game (Thought they improved in this department yesterday). Then you need to think quickly on your feet of what options you have
- do I pass left, right, short, long, kick soft to the ingoal, kick to the corner, put up a bomb, do I have a back rower running a good line, is there a decoy runner that is going to get in the way etc. They have to do this in split seconds. If they don't get the ball quickly, they get creamed or take the wrong option. Standing back is not the complete answer, it gives you more time, yes - it also gives the opposition more time to counter your strategy. The forwards for most of yesterday did well, and probably won the day but.... a lot of inexperience without Grant, Lawrence and Sironen. No one was running good lines to give that option.

Look, I am not saying they are faultless but there are reasons for their indecision as outlined above (am sure you all know that anyway), such as getting slow ball ( and the passes need to good), not running to the line often enough themselves, their kicking game needs to be improved substantially - we know all this as well but they are still young and inexperienced. This is not an excuse but they are not going to be Andrew Johns or Peter Sterling whilst they are 21. They need help and time.

I think the Tigers need to put a few bob aside from Harry and get Johns, Fittler or an equally brilliant player to teach/mentor them in kicking etc. (should have been done ages ago) or this is going to take more time than most on here are going to allow.

Russell,good post,There is also a lack of communication between the spine,eg,Teddy makes a run and passes the ball to the sideline,RF kicks on the 3 rd tackle and the Eels score...if Brooks and Moses are to dominate at NRL level they must work on all facets of the game,granted they are young and immature still,however,they are the future of this team..they need to get right into training and practice their kicking games,their communication and the structural play...don't get me wrong,I'm all for giving younger ones a go,but these two have been touted as the ones who will control the game and lead the team around the park,they even told JT how they want to play football and he has given them some slack...these next few weeks will tell if they are going to make it in the big arena as winners of games....they have even admitted where they went wrong yesterday,now they have the chance to show us what they have learnt and what they are going to do to improve their game skills...as you said we can't afford hearing about potential or hype for much longer,they must take their game to the next level...
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Post by Tony33 » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 12:22 pm

Our attack looks better when Moses takes control. The last 20 minutes yesterday when the game was on the line, Moses got into first receiver and looked to make something happen. Whilst nothing happened, it still looked a lot better then what Brooks was dishing up.

Brooks continues to run around the field like a headless chook at times, looking nothing like the controlled half he should be.

Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and hand Mitch the number 7 jersey and relegate Brooks to the 6.

I'm not giving up on Brooks just yet but given that he has the extra year under his belt you'd like to think he would be a bit further along by now. He shows glimpses but then undoes it with a brain dead play that we can't associate with a dominant half.

I like that there both trying to take the line on this year, it shows they're willing but the last 3 halves of football has shown that when the attack their used to isn't clicking they can struggle to conjure anything up. It was always going to happen, where teams figured out that play at the back to Teddy. I just hoped that we would've developed some other plays to resort to.

We can't underestimate the effect Parra's attack has on any attacking structure either. They've done the same thing to all 4 of their opponents thus far, including a Cowboys side who one week later put 40 points on the Roosters. JT struggled to break them, so I guess we can cut our player makers some slack considering that the attack hasn't been to shabby the 3 weeks prior.

Don't write them off just yet..
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Post by The Tooth » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 2:15 pm

I dont thinks as big an issue as other here. As mentioned Foran and Norman are star players with plenty of games and they were on par with our halves.

It was just one of those games and Para are a tough team. There forwards took it out of the boys and they were all tired towards the end and found it hard to think as a unit.

I was super impressed with the defence of Broses. Sure the execution was poor but that game could have gone either way and it would have if they got some repeat sets. That was the most disappointing thing for mine and the handling errors of course.

Disappointed with the loss but all in all, the team is playing better than expected for mine and I wont say top 8 yet, but i'd bet my house we wont be last.

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Post by tiga4eva » Tue 29 Mar, 2016 7:58 pm

My only concern with our halves is that the set play is usually a death or glory one. Well either grab a try out of it or turnover possession on an early tackle. I haven't figured out what our system is. A system that you trust and use every week and base your structure around. Surely the flash plays should be less prominent.

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Post by Russell » Wed 30 Mar, 2016 12:45 pm

The Tooth wrote:I dont thinks as big an issue as other here. As mentioned Foran and Norman are star players with plenty of games and they were on par with our halves.

It was just one of those games and Para are a tough team. There forwards took it out of the boys and they were all tired towards the end and found it hard to think as a unit.

I was super impressed with the defence of Broses. Sure the execution was poor but that game could have gone either way and it would have if they got some repeat sets. That was the most disappointing thing for mine and the handling errors of course.

Disappointed with the loss but all in all, the team is playing better than expected for mine and I wont say top 8 yet, but i'd bet my house we wont be last.
Agree with most of what you say Tooth - I think the Parra game was another cog in the wheel - we had to play that game - hopefully everyone learnt from it.

Let us move onto improved defence and attack which will lead to more wins.

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Post by goldcoast tiger » Wed 30 Mar, 2016 5:19 pm

TrueTiger wrote:
Russell wrote:Back to being whipping boys again. Amazing what a couple of lost games brings out.

Can understand the disappointment - I have it too. In my opinion most are being too hard on them (they deserve some agro but...), they are still very young (yes,yes - same ole excuse, potential, potential etc. etc.). However they are not a forward like Klemmer as an example that only has to learn to put the ball under his arm and run as fast and as hard as he can into the opposition.

Being a half and 5/8 (playmakers) are the two most difficult positions to learn on the field. For starters, you are usually a bit smaller so the opposition runs their big guys at you for most of the game (Thought they improved in this department yesterday). Then you need to think quickly on your feet of what options you have
- do I pass left, right, short, long, kick soft to the ingoal, kick to the corner, put up a bomb, do I have a back rower running a good line, is there a decoy runner that is going to get in the way etc. They have to do this in split seconds. If they don't get the ball quickly, they get creamed or take the wrong option. Standing back is not the complete answer, it gives you more time, yes - it also gives the opposition more time to counter your strategy. The forwards for most of yesterday did well, and probably won the day but.... a lot of inexperience without Grant, Lawrence and Sironen. No one was running good lines to give that option.

Look, I am not saying they are faultless but there are reasons for their indecision as outlined above (am sure you all know that anyway), such as getting slow ball ( and the passes need to good), not running to the line often enough themselves, their kicking game needs to be improved substantially - we know all this as well but they are still young and inexperienced. This is not an excuse but they are not going to be Andrew Johns or Peter Sterling whilst they are 21. They need help and time.

I think the Tigers need to put a few bob aside from Harry and get Johns, Fittler or an equally brilliant player to teach/mentor them in kicking etc. (should have been done ages ago) or this is going to take more time than most on here are going to allow.

Russell,good post,There is also a lack of communication between the spine,eg,Teddy makes a run and passes the ball to the sideline,RF kicks on the 3 rd tackle and the Eels score...if Brooks and Moses are to dominate at NRL level they must work on all facets of the game,granted they are young and immature still,however,they are the future of this team..they need to get right into training and practice their kicking games,their communication and the structural play...don't get me wrong,I'm all for giving younger ones a go,but these two have been touted as the ones who will control the game and lead the team around the park,they even told JT how they want to play football and he has given them some slack...these next few weeks will tell if they are going to make it in the big arena as winners of games....they have even admitted where they went wrong yesterday,now they have the chance to show us what they have learnt and what they are going to do to improve their game skills...as you said we can't afford hearing about potential or hype for much longer,they must take their game to the next level...
What has a winger being badly out of position for a pass from a FB got to do with bad communication between the spine?
And Farahs kick resulted in great field position for us( if it's the same one that I'm thinking of).

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Post by ricksen » Wed 30 Mar, 2016 5:44 pm

Farah's kick was a good one (though I think he muffed it slightly - would have rolled into the in goal had he hit it clearly), and was backed up by a good chase. Sadly we copped a penalty on the first tackle for no apparent reason.

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