Changes need to be made

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Re: Changes need to be made

Post by ricksen » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 12:57 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Balmain Boy wrote:
happy tiger wrote:
Balmain Boy wrote:Lovett has to go for Edwards. We can't carry this muppet any more. He needs to deserve his spot which he doesn't. His penalties are costing us 1-2 tires every game. Most of them are soft and totally pointless penalties too.

Our left hand attack is so pedestrian its a joke. Brooks, Lovett, Simona and Rankin? None of them have shown any ability to attack all season. How many breaks/points have come down this wing? I think one try all season. Simona did score a support play try against the warriors which doesn't count. Rankin fell over the try line in one game. That's it.

Addo Carr needs to come in. His defence has been good in the matches i've seen him in, even if he had a poor game on the weekend. But it's also not easy to look good playing outside Milone. This guy can't attack or defence to save himself. His desperation in defence and ability to run down opponents, and hit the ball up with venom would also be a big plus. Rankin is slow and constantly out of position. He could have scored 3-4 tries by now but he simply doesn't know where to stand when he's playing wing! I don't think he's an awful player, but he's simply not a winger, and playing him there makes him look worse than he really is.

Aloiai proably needs to be dropped to. Hasn't really offered much this season. Looks confused whether he's a prop or back rower. Runs like a prop, doesn't look like breaking the line. A few 80 min games in NSW Cup will help.

Playing Cherry for 5 mins a game is pointless too. Either he plays at least 20, or he plays nsw cup. Zero point playing 5 mins, he won't develop and he can't do anything in such little time.

Lovett > Edwards
Aloiai > Chee Kam
Cherrington > Griffin/J Grant?
Rankin > Addo Carr

At least 2 of these must be made this week. There's nothing dramatic about them. It's about players having to play well to keep their spots. Or get game time in order to further develop as a player.
One problem , if JAC struggles in NSW Cup he will get destroyed at NRL level

Why does everyone look at these speedsters the club has brought over the years hoping their defence will improve as the next Eric Grothe Senior ??

Taqele Naiyavero , Grant might have been quick and big , but if you can't defend you are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike
In the 3 matches i've seen of him this season his defence has been fine. No worse than Nofoaluma that's for sure and he get's a run every week purely for his attack and tackle breaking ability. His defence is average, and his inability to defuse a kick is incredibly worrying.

If some players can get a callup for attack, why can't others? We're weak on wingers. Nofo and Rankin are both average wingers and JAC is their equal. As equals he should play ahead of Rankin who literally doesn't know how to play on the wing.
But your comparing a bloke who is playing NSW Cup and never experienced NRL against players who have played NRL

And you are basically giving them an equal rating

The step up from NSW Cup to NRL is a big one

If we get to a situation later in the season when we are out of semi contention you give JAC a run or if he improves out of sight in NSW Cup maybe beforehand , but how many players do you see who are speed demons at lower levels that can't crack it at NRL level
The step up from ESL to NRL is a big one too, but we're expecting Rankin to do that whilst playing out of position.

re: JAC's defensive aptitude - there's plenty in the first grade squad that aren't up to scratch either, but we've seen fit to let them learn on the job. Why not JAC?

You make valid points happy, but I just think we've nothing to lose in this situation.
JT makes too many safe selections, none of which individually hurt us much, but as a collective we do suffer.


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Post by happy tiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 1:04 pm

The difference being that Rankin has played NRL and knows what he is up against , the same goes for Edwards once he comes back (hopefully this week )

The problem is would you prefer to JAC some more game time playing NSW Cup while he gets used to playing against big bodies and experienced older players or throw him in and potentially destroy him

I think they'd prefer to play JAC on the other side but Khee Cam is obviously being turned into a centre and wouldn't have the experience to protect him even though he is potentially better than Milone

Milone is a centre and at least knows the position and can probably help JAC more

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Post by Harvey » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 1:09 pm

Recently Peni has been playing as the other centre, and Wheelhouse has benefited from that, though he is a utility back. I still think that he is an option to fill any hole in the threequarters.

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Post by TrueTiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 2:16 pm

Just to shed a bit of light on the selections....if any of you have played the game for quite some time you will understand that the reason you have First Grade and then Reserve grade is the best 17 players are picked for their skill and playing prowess to play in first grade...reserve grade is only there for the emergency player if one or more in FG get hurt or sidelined for whatever reason...granted that very occasionally there will be a player in reserves that maybe able to play FG but not many...now as I said if you are a reserve grade player and you are consistently good in reserve grade week to week you may think your a chance in FG...let me tell you,the step up is big,the speed is much quicker,the skillset of these guys in FG is unbelievable, the fitness level is far higher,just look at the top players from any club and position and you will know what I'm talking about,it takes a paramount of time to even adjust to the FG game ...I'm not knocking anyone who is calling for players from Reserves to get a run in FG ,I'm saying the guys we have may not have the ability to play a top level game of NRL for the full 80 mins or even less,this is why JT could be making the selections he has..I'm not defending him,just stating.....
I will give you an example and this is just group nine back in the eighties...I was playing reserve grade for Turvey Park and I got the call up to play FG against Gundagai on the wing..I was ecstatic,over the moon type stuff...when I looked at the team sheets,Gundagai Tigers had Cliff Lyons playing Five eight he ended up playing for Manly if some of you remember and I was marking a fella by the name of Brian Dennis on the wing,Brian and I became good mates but he went and played for the North Sydney bears....after the game I had stitches above my left eye and I can tell you playing first grade almost wrecked me,it was quick in attack and brutal in defense,I certainly knew I had played a very hard game that day....so hopefully this may help you guys understand that JT may want to make changes,but doesn't want to change something that maybe bad to something worse...just my opinion but hope it can help....
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Post by Harvey » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 2:52 pm

TrueTiger wrote:Just to shed a bit of light on the selections....if any of you have played the game for quite some time you will understand that the reason you have First Grade and then Reserve grade is the best 17 players are picked for their skill and playing prowess to play in first grade...reserve grade is only there for the emergency player if one or more in FG get hurt or sidelined for whatever reason...granted that very occasionally there will be a player in reserves that maybe able to play FG but not many...now as I said if you are a reserve grade player and you are consistently good in reserve grade week to week you may think your a chance in FG...let me tell you,the step up is big,the speed is much quicker,the skillset of these guys in FG is unbelievable, the fitness level is far higher,just look at the top players from any club and position and you will know what I'm talking about,it takes a paramount of time to even adjust to the FG game ...I'm not knocking anyone who is calling for players from Reserves to get a run in FG ,I'm saying the guys we have may not have the ability to play a top level game of NRL for the full 80 mins or even less,this is why JT could be making the selections he has..I'm not defending him,just stating.....
I will give you an example and this is just group nine back in the eighties...I was playing reserve grade for Turvey Park and I got the call up to play FG against Gundagai on the wing..I was ecstatic,over the moon type stuff...when I looked at the team sheets,Gundagai Tigers had Cliff Lyons playing Five eight he ended up playing for Manly if some of you remember and I was marking a fella by the name of Brian Dennis on the wing,Brian and I became good mates but he went and played for the North Sydney bears....after the game I had stitches above my left eye and I can tell you playing first grade almost wrecked me,it was quick in attack and brutal in defense,I certainly knew I had played a very hard game that day....so hopefully this may help you guys understand that JT may want to make changes,but doesn't want to change something that maybe bad to something worse...just my opinion but hope it can help....
But if you have a bloke that stands out in u/20's, then stands out in reserve grade, how do you decide that he is a 1st grader? When does he get the opportunity to prove that he may be an improvement over one of the designated 1st graders. I can understand if you are talking about a blokes that have had numerous opportunities to prove themselves as a 1st grader and never quite done it (Hunt), but blokes like Peni, JAC, MCK and others are youngsters who have never been able prove themselves. Wouldn't they also need to experience it to work out how they need to develop their game to get to the next level.


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Post by Balmain Boy » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:02 pm

Totally different these days TT, the 80s are a long time ago, although yes of course there's a significant gap in quality between the grades.

NSW Cup, not reserve grade, is the stepping stone to the NRL. It's where your most promising and fringe NRL players play to develop their skills or keep match fit while they wait for an opportunity. In an ideal scenario the club should be hoping that every player in the NSW Cup side could develop into an NRL player. It's a development league and if you're playing too many players who'll never play first grade you're wasting your time and resources.

You'll get guys like Drinkwater, Waters, Meaney etc who'll be consistently decent players at that level and play the occasional first grade game in the career, and those players are important too. But you sure don't want a team of them. If you look at our current NSW Cup side there's a lot of promising players there who could go on to have NRL careers. The only ones you'd say would be highly unlikely to have prolonged NRL careers are Milone and Marshall King. Of course not all of them will kick on, but they nearly all have the potential to or already are fringe first graders. Compared to last year with the likes of Sila there's a world of difference.

Looking back at our NSW Cup games, Lovett never stood out and simply looked like a hard working but sluggish and ineffective player. He got called up by default, and has somehow maintained his place ever since despite not making an impact in the NRL. There have been numerous other players who have looked far better than Lovett ever did in NSW Cup, in defence and/or attack, but have never got a shot due to politics or whatever reason. Lovett isn't a step above our current back rowers in the NSW Cup - the others just haven't been given a chance due to conservative team selections from JT.

We have players who are repeatedly showing they aren't yet up to playing NRL, and other players of a similar standard should get an opportunity rather than continually persisting with these same players and hoping they get suddenly improve.

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Post by happy tiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:15 pm

Harvey wrote:
TrueTiger wrote:Just to shed a bit of light on the selections....if any of you have played the game for quite some time you will understand that the reason you have First Grade and then Reserve grade is the best 17 players are picked for their skill and playing prowess to play in first grade...reserve grade is only there for the emergency player if one or more in FG get hurt or sidelined for whatever reason...granted that very occasionally there will be a player in reserves that maybe able to play FG but not many...now as I said if you are a reserve grade player and you are consistently good in reserve grade week to week you may think your a chance in FG...let me tell you,the step up is big,the speed is much quicker,the skillset of these guys in FG is unbelievable, the fitness level is far higher,just look at the top players from any club and position and you will know what I'm talking about,it takes a paramount of time to even adjust to the FG game ...I'm not knocking anyone who is calling for players from Reserves to get a run in FG ,I'm saying the guys we have may not have the ability to play a top level game of NRL for the full 80 mins or even less,this is why JT could be making the selections he has..I'm not defending him,just stating.....
I will give you an example and this is just group nine back in the eighties...I was playing reserve grade for Turvey Park and I got the call up to play FG against Gundagai on the wing..I was ecstatic,over the moon type stuff...when I looked at the team sheets,Gundagai Tigers had Cliff Lyons playing Five eight he ended up playing for Manly if some of you remember and I was marking a fella by the name of Brian Dennis on the wing,Brian and I became good mates but he went and played for the North Sydney bears....after the game I had stitches above my left eye and I can tell you playing first grade almost wrecked me,it was quick in attack and brutal in defense,I certainly knew I had played a very hard game that day....so hopefully this may help you guys understand that JT may want to make changes,but doesn't want to change something that maybe bad to something worse...just my opinion but hope it can help....
But if you have a bloke that stands out in u/20's, then stands out in reserve grade, how do you decide that he is a 1st grader? When does he get the opportunity to prove that he may be an improvement over one of the designated 1st graders. I can understand if you are talking about a blokes that have had numerous opportunities to prove themselves as a 1st grader and never quite done it (Hunt), but blokes like Peni, JAC, MCK and others are youngsters who have never been able prove themselves. Wouldn't they also need to experience it to work out how they need to develop their game to get to the next level.
Any player playing NSW Cup who is wanting to play NRL should be a standout in almost every area of their game that is important

So in the case of JAC he should be good under the high ball , read the play well in defence , being able to work out late in the count and match smarts to whether he needs to go back for downtown or because the opposition might run the ball he needs to not fully drop back , be prepared to come in and shut down a play

In attack obviously centring the play with early returns from kick returns or tackle 2 play , work hard as a possible decoy early in the tackle count , being prepared for the chance of a blind side attack , communicating something he might see in the opposition defence , communicating with his centre partner and hopefully having a bit of speed to burn

I don't go to NSW Cup games but unless he excels in almost all of those areas , he is not ready for NRL and from many reports , his defence doesn't cut it

NRL teams will break you down if you have a weakness in your game , similar to cricketers who have questionable weaknessess as a batsmen

And once one team knows everyone knows

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Post by Newtown » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:18 pm

Wests Tigers had two halves who stood out in Under 20's. After a handful of games in State Cup they were promoted to 1st grade and signed on hefty contracts. Up to two years down the track and there is very heavy conjecture as to whether at least one of them was worth it.

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Post by iofthetigers » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:23 pm

Some players excel in first grade but struggle in reggies due to the speed & atmosphere.

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Post by TrueTiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:30 pm

Harvey wrote:
TrueTiger wrote:Just to shed a bit of light on the selections....if any of you have played the game for quite some time you will understand that the reason you have First Grade and then Reserve grade is the best 17 players are picked for their skill and playing prowess to play in first grade...reserve grade is only there for the emergency player if one or more in FG get hurt or sidelined for whatever reason...granted that very occasionally there will be a player in reserves that maybe able to play FG but not many...now as I said if you are a reserve grade player and you are consistently good in reserve grade week to week you may think your a chance in FG...let me tell you,the step up is big,the speed is much quicker,the skillset of these guys in FG is unbelievable, the fitness level is far higher,just look at the top players from any club and position and you will know what I'm talking about,it takes a paramount of time to even adjust to the FG game ...I'm not knocking anyone who is calling for players from Reserves to get a run in FG ,I'm saying the guys we have may not have the ability to play a top level game of NRL for the full 80 mins or even less,this is why JT could be making the selections he has..I'm not defending him,just stating.....state cup is no different,the ones who can play state cup may or may not have the skill to step up....I was only trying to make a point and I do appreciate the civility in which you reply to posts..I don't really have the answer,however if politics or the boys club play a big part,then the people in charge of the club as a whole should be held accountable as much as JT ......
I will give you an example and this is just group nine back in the eighties...I was playing reserve grade for Turvey Park and I got the call up to play FG against Gundagai on the wing..I was ecstatic,over the moon type stuff...when I looked at the team sheets,Gundagai Tigers had Cliff Lyons playing Five eight he ended up playing for Manly if some of you remember and I was marking a fella by the name of Brian Dennis on the wing,Brian and I became good mates but he went and played for the North Sydney bears....after the game I had stitches above my left eye and I can tell you playing first grade almost wrecked me,it was quick in attack and brutal in defense,I certainly knew I had played a very hard game that day....so hopefully this may help you guys understand that JT may want to make changes,but doesn't want to change something that maybe bad to something worse...just my opinion but hope it can help....
But if you have a bloke that stands out in u/20's, then stands out in reserve grade, how do you decide that he is a 1st grader? When does he get the opportunity to prove that he may be an improvement over one of the designated 1st graders. I can understand if you are talking about a blokes that have had numerous opportunities to prove themselves as a 1st grader and never quite done it (Hunt), but blokes like Peni, JAC, MCK and others are youngsters who have never been able prove themselves. Wouldn't they also need to experience it to work out how they need to develop their game to get to the next level.
Harvey I do understand what you are saying,here is another example...we let Martin go because we heavily invested in Brooks and Moses because they stood out like becons in NYC..do you honestly think we can give everyone a chance to prove themselves if their from state cup or NYC ?? Brooks and Moses have had nearly fifty games each and can you tell me they are complete NRL standard halves..they are still a work in progress and as I said the ones who do get the chance to step up and make it are very,very few and far between..If the boys club and politics play a big part of who gets in and who doesn't,then the people in charge of the club as a whole should be held accountable,not just JT..
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Post by goldcoast tiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:35 pm

The only way the halves will be worth even some of that money is if someone like johns is bought to work with them over the rest of this year,
Which is why I thought that Taylor would be a good fit for us when he signed.
But if he's done much with the halves, it's hard to see it in their games.
IMO too many people have been getting in their heads and have convinced them that all they have to do is to turn up and their NYC glory days will return.
I have no doubt that if they go somewhere else, that that club will have no hesitation in getting the mentoring that they need, which eventually might bring out some of the ability that they are supposed to have, but they're not worth big money at the moment

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Post by Harvey » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:37 pm

Agree TT. This is not the school carnival where everyone gets a ribbon. But it is also not musical chairs where just because you were 1st to the seat, you get to stay in. We have a couple of players that are average 1st graders at best, or not able to play in the position that they are selected in. For these players, we need to start looking at what options are available to replace them.

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Post by goldcoast tiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:39 pm

iofthetigers wrote:Some players excel in first grade but struggle in reggies due to the speed & atmosphere.
Others can be just the opposite.
They can be ok in reserves and when given the chance around better players in first grade, they can develope into good first graders, with some it's hard to tell until they get a chance

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Post by TrueTiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:44 pm

goldcoast tiger wrote:The only way the halves will be worth even some of that money is if someone like johns is bought to work with them over the rest of this year,
Which is why I thought that Taylor would be a good fit for us when he signed.
But if he's done much with the halves, it's hard to see it in their games.
IMO too many people have been getting in their heads and have convinced them that all they have to do is to turn up and their NYC glory days will return.
I have no doubt that if they go somewhere else, that that club will have no hesitation in getting the mentoring that they need, which eventually might bring out some of the ability that they are supposed to have, but they're not worth big money at the moment
Your absolutely right about getting them mentoring at another club,this could bring out their NYC best,however they may also not adapt to that mentoringvunder the game pressure of NRL...they could get found out that they may not have the ability so many thought they had...but who knows,time will tell GCT.....
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Post by jirskyr » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:46 pm

happy tiger wrote: Any player playing NSW Cup who is wanting to play NRL should be a standout in almost every area of their game that is important

So in the case of JAC he should be good under the high ball , read the play well in defence , being able to work out late in the count and match smarts to whether he needs to go back for downtown or because the opposition might run the ball he needs to not fully drop back , be prepared to come in and shut down a play

In attack obviously centring the play with early returns from kick returns or tackle 2 play , work hard as a possible decoy early in the tackle count , being prepared for the chance of a blind side attack , communicating something he might see in the opposition defence , communicating with his centre partner and hopefully having a bit of speed to burn

I don't go to NSW Cup games but unless he excels in almost all of those areas , he is not ready for NRL and from many reports , his defence doesn't cut it

NRL teams will break you down if you have a weakness in your game , similar to cricketers who have questionable weaknessess as a batsmen

And once one team knows everyone knows
Happy I'm not arguing against you, but sometimes I reckon it doesn't hurt to blood a rookie or fringe player when you've had a run of losses.

It certainly placates some fans, but more than that it gives the supporters a chance to really see the calibre of the backup options.

Obviously recruitment saw something in JAC, because he's only 1 month into his first Top 25 contract. But I'd happily take a few weeks of JAC, even if he stuffs up, just to get a good look at what he is capable of against first graders (because as you say NSW Cup is misleading).

One might argue that placating supporters is not the job description of a head coach (as Bennett would say, once you start listening to the fans you'll be sitting with them). But if you aren't placating supporters, I don't know what the purpose of footy is.

In other words, nobody is overly impressed with Rankin and he might well be the 2nd best winger we have. But there is a dude in reserves every week who is grease lightening, young and raw. People just want to see him get a run over someone (Rankin) who is proving to be a fairly ordinary acquisition so far.

At the very least, JAC might get destroyed for a game or two and then we'll put that argument / experiment to bed for a while.
Last edited by jirskyr on Tue 05 Apr, 2016 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by TrueTiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 3:56 pm

jirskyr wrote:
happy tiger wrote: But if you have a bloke that stands out in u/20's, then stands out in reserve grade, how do you decide that he is a 1st grader? When does he get the opportunity to prove that he may be an improvement over one of the designated 1st graders. I can understand if you are talking about a blokes that have had numerous opportunities to prove themselves as a 1st grader and never quite done it (Hunt), but blokes like Peni, JAC, MCK and others are youngsters who have never been able prove themselves. Wouldn't they also need to experience it to work out how they need to develop their game to get to the next level.
Any player playing NSW Cup who is wanting to play NRL should be a standout in almost every area of their game that is important

So in the case of JAC he should be good under the high ball , read the play well in defence , being able to work out late in the count and match smarts to whether he needs to go back for downtown or because the opposition might run the ball he needs to not fully drop back , be prepared to come in and shut down a play

In attack obviously centring the play with early returns from kick returns or tackle 2 play , work hard as a possible decoy early in the tackle count , being prepared for the chance of a blind side attack , communicating something he might see in the opposition defence , communicating with his centre partner and hopefully having a bit of speed to burn

I don't go to NSW Cup games but unless he excels in almost all of those areas , he is not ready for NRL and from many reports , his defence doesn't cut it

NRL teams will break you down if you have a weakness in your game , similar to cricketers who have questionable weaknessess as a batsmen

And once one team knows everyone knows
Happy I'm not arguing against you, but sometimes I reckon it doesn't hurt to blood a rookie or fringe player when you've had a run of losses.

It certainly placates some fans, but more than that it gives the supporters a chance to really see the calibre of the backup options.

Obviously recruitment saw something in JAC, because he's only 1 month into his first Top 25 contract. But I'd happily take a few weeks of JAC, even if he stuffs up, just to get a good look at what he is capable of against first graders (because as you say NSW Cup is misleading).

One might argue that placating supporters is not the job description of a head coach (as Bennett would say, once you start listening to the fans you'll be sitting with them). But if you aren't placating supporters, I don't know what the purpose of footy is.

In other words, nobody is overly impressed with Rankin and he might well be the 2nd best winger we have. But there is a dude in reserves every week who is grease lightening, young and raw. People just want to see him get a run over someone (Rankin) who is proving to be a fairly ordinary acquisition so far.

At the very least, JAC might get destroyed for a game or two and then we'll put that argument / experiment to bed for a while.[/quote]

Jirskyr,I can see your passionate argument and I for one would love to give the young bloke a chance,however as you say if he gets smashed in a couple of games and we lose...then the fans will be calling for JT to be sacked once again for poor recruitment or players not being able to play to his "structures" he will be crucified once again and be in the lose/lose position as coach...placate the fans as much as they like,but if it ends up going sour who do you think will be in the crosshairs ..not the young bloke in my opinion..
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Post by goldcoast tiger » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 4:12 pm

TrueTiger wrote:
goldcoast tiger wrote:The only way the halves will be worth even some of that money is if someone like johns is bought to work with them over the rest of this year,
Which is why I thought that Taylor would be a good fit for us when he signed.
But if he's done much with the halves, it's hard to see it in their games.
IMO too many people have been getting in their heads and have convinced them that all they have to do is to turn up and their NYC glory days will return.
I have no doubt that if they go somewhere else, that that club will have no hesitation in getting the mentoring that they need, which eventually might bring out some of the ability that they are supposed to have, but they're not worth big money at the moment
Your absolutely right about getting them mentoring at another club,this could bring out their NYC best,however they may also not adapt to that mentoringvunder the game pressure of NRL...they could get found out that they may not have the ability so many thought they had...but who knows,time will tell GCT.....
I agree with everything that you've said TT. It would be good to see what the right Coach, or right mentoring could do for them, they need something.

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Post by Balmain Boy » Mon 04 Apr, 2016 4:15 pm

I also think many people just go along with standard responses without actually forming an educated opinion of their own. How many people on here actually go to NSW Cup games? I'd hazard a guess and say maybe a dozen or two at most, half of which aren't frequent posters.

Because a player is young and fast they get stereotyped as a poor defender, like a Koro. They might be, they may not be, but many will presume they are until they see for themselves whether it's true or not.

I've seen him play NSW Cup 3 times and not once has his defence been poor. I'm sure he has bad games too though and yes defence would be the main area to improve. 2nd tier cap probably also comes into it it. JAC is a 2nd tier player, the earlier he starts playing NRL the less space we have for the entire season.

And Happy, you're wrong about players needing to prove themselves to be outstanding in every facet of the game at nsw cup level to get a call up. Was Naiqama? Lovett? Buchanan? Alioai? Cherrington? Ava? Halatau? etc. To name a few, and they all had significant deficiencies when they entered first grade. Some have matured into much better players, others haven't. That's normal

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