Nofo

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jirskyr
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Re: Nofo

Unread post by jirskyr » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 10:29 am

VanillaThunder wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 2:44 am
Geo. wrote:
Sun 16 Jul, 2017 8:15 pm
gallagher wrote:
Sun 16 Jul, 2017 8:08 pm
He needs a 5 metre tether to the sideline.
Where does that leave the edge second rower right side half and right centre...

Starts in the middle and hasn't been addressed even switching Elijah Taylor there..
I don't understand why some people still struggle with this? That first Manly try was a simple overlap. Nofo followed Marsters in and Wright went over in the corner. Nofo stays on him and the centre goes through untouched.
Sure, Nofo is prone to rushing in every now and then, but I'd say most of the time he's either following his man in or holding his line and getting caught in a two on one because the people inside him have made the wrong decision.
For the exact same reason JAC and Koro look like world-beaters at Melbourne, if Nofo played outside Chambers he'd be an Origin rep (assuming Bellamy also taught him to catch).
I don't really agree with this. The first Manly try was the Lane stroll-through, thanks Luke Brooks, I assume you mean instead the first Wright try?

But more than this, EVERY backline move where a set attack brings in the fullback is an overlap. You have to be able to defend overlaps. No, we don't do a great job on either edge but at least the LHS scrambles and usually slides, they did a fairly good job yesterday with Frozone and MWZ not being an experienced combination. And the LHS has to contend with the forwards traffic directed at Brooks, and for most of the season also the inexperienced decision-making of Suli, so it's not as if they are a rock-solid unit.

But for the RHS, Lolohea is neither ineffective nor slow. Marsters is not experienced but he's also not caught out anything like MCK tended to be. Nofo just can't help himself, he over-reads the play and I understand what he's doing and why he's doing it, but he's over committing - oppositions know and target that relentlessly. He's 5 ft nothing and they can effectively loop pass over his head, he turns like the Queen Mary and can't affect cover tackles.

Nofo should be holding his wing until Marsters is truly beaten on the outside, then coming in, not coming in just because Marsters has a player on his outside shoulder. The opposition are always working to the outside shoulder, it's a fact of the game, and they want you to come in because it's harder for the cover to reach the winger. For God's sake Nofo trust your centre to turn and chase.

And maybe it does all stem from the middle, maybe the ripples of mistakes from the centre become tsunamis out wide, but what I know is the opposition definitely DOES score by running second-man to our RHS, they don't crash through Marsters or Taylor as often as they score in the corner. When you are a winger and you are fairly regularly coming up with thin air, i.e. you don't affect any sort of tackle whatsoever, and everyone notices, you are doing something wrong.


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Unread post by Balmain Boy » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 11:30 am

I'm increasingly realising it's not his centres or inside men that's the problem (sometimes they are though) he just constantly drifts infield for no reason. Their first try yesterday he came in to mark the centre when marsters was sliding across and had him covered. Absolutely no need but once again he left his man wide open and he scored. He comes up and in even when the others don't... He simply doesn't know how to defend on the wing.

No number of metres made can make up for such a massive deficiency.

He wouldn't get a start for any other club, too much of a liability and unlike someone like JAC he doesn't offer something electric to make up for it.

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Unread post by KevB » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 12:19 pm

My thoughts are our RHS inside defenders slide back and across putting Nofa in no-mans-land, good slide defense like all defense requires some forward movement by the defenders to put pressure on the offense to make decisions.

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Unread post by VanillaThunder » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 1:43 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 10:29 am
VanillaThunder wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 2:44 am
Geo. wrote:
Sun 16 Jul, 2017 8:15 pm
gallagher wrote:
Sun 16 Jul, 2017 8:08 pm
He needs a 5 metre tether to the sideline.
Where does that leave the edge second rower right side half and right centre...

Starts in the middle and hasn't been addressed even switching Elijah Taylor there..
I don't understand why some people still struggle with this? That first Manly try was a simple overlap. Nofo followed Marsters in and Wright went over in the corner. Nofo stays on him and the centre goes through untouched.
Sure, Nofo is prone to rushing in every now and then, but I'd say most of the time he's either following his man in or holding his line and getting caught in a two on one because the people inside him have made the wrong decision.
For the exact same reason JAC and Koro look like world-beaters at Melbourne, if Nofo played outside Chambers he'd be an Origin rep (assuming Bellamy also taught him to catch).
I don't really agree with this. The first Manly try was the Lane stroll-through, thanks Luke Brooks, I assume you mean instead the first Wright try?

But more than this, EVERY backline move where a set attack brings in the fullback is an overlap. You have to be able to defend overlaps. No, we don't do a great job on either edge but at least the LHS scrambles and usually slides, they did a fairly good job yesterday with Frozone and MWZ not being an experienced combination. And the LHS has to contend with the forwards traffic directed at Brooks, and for most of the season also the inexperienced decision-making of Suli, so it's not as if they are a rock-solid unit.

But for the RHS, Lolohea is neither ineffective nor slow. Marsters is not experienced but he's also not caught out anything like MCK tended to be. Nofo just can't help himself, he over-reads the play and I understand what he's doing and why he's doing it, but he's over committing - oppositions know and target that relentlessly. He's 5 ft nothing and they can effectively loop pass over his head, he turns like the Queen Mary and can't affect cover tackles.

Nofo should be holding his wing until Marsters is truly beaten on the outside, then coming in, not coming in just because Marsters has a player on his outside shoulder. The opposition are always working to the outside shoulder, it's a fact of the game, and they want you to come in because it's harder for the cover to reach the winger. For God's sake Nofo trust your centre to turn and chase.

And maybe it does all stem from the middle, maybe the ripples of mistakes from the centre become tsunamis out wide, but what I know is the opposition definitely DOES score by running second-man to our RHS, they don't crash through Marsters or Taylor as often as they score in the corner. When you are a winger and you are fairly regularly coming up with thin air, i.e. you don't affect any sort of tackle whatsoever, and everyone notices, you are doing something wrong.
That's the one. Not saying Nofo is completely immune, he's not the strongest one-on-one defender and he definitely rushes in on occasion and takes the wrong man, but he is also left out to dry plenty of times. I've noticed Marsters tends to over-commit to the inside man as well, maybe he just backs his speed to check and release but when he has Nofo outside him he can't do that. A few moments spring to mind where Esan has wound up infield in front of Tui on his man.

On Nofo holding until Marsters is truly beaten, that counters an up-and-in defence doesn't it? Isn't the point to stop (or at least slow down) ball movement before it makes the centre/winger, and if it does get that far out rely on inside cover to make the tackle? Now we're not exactly known for our hard-working middle defence, so maybe the problem lies with the defensive scheme, but Cleary has said he's only making minor adjustments in the meantime before starting fresh in 2018.

In terms of edge disparity, like you said, on the left edge teams are playing for Brooks - on the right they're playing for Nofo. Without knowing stats and relying on selective memory, I seem to remember most of our tries on the left being either inside or outside shoulder of Brooks. Teams aren't challenging Tui that way (who on a side note I think is a worse individual defender than Brooks), because they know our edge defence leaks points easily enough. For that same reason, teams don't challenge Suli & Kev or MWZ because they know the guys on either side of Brooks (or Brooks himself) will do the same.
A few times yesterday MWZ got caught out as Nofo does, but whether it be due to a bad pass on occasion or just better cover defence, we didn't get burnt. I guess my argument there is that we tend to cover better on the left when the ball goes wide (for whatever reason), but teams just don't end up needing to pass that wide to score.
How many times has there been a clean break down the right edge from mid-field or so, and it taking 20-30m before cover gets there (and it's generally Teddy)?
We are not a good defensive team. We have some good individual defenders in ET, McIlwrick, Lawrence/Edwards, even Woods, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can fit a team defensive scheme well. Similar situation arise in the NBA. Undersized (or unathletic) players may struggle in iso plays, but can be considered good (or passable) 'team defenders' when they're just another cog in the machine. When that machine isn't working is when poor defenders get isolated repeatedly, which I would suggest is what happens with us all too often.
Melbourne have solid defenders, but Finucane is probably one of the only ones I'd consider exceptional, and yet they scramble well, cover well, and are consistently one of the best defensive teams despite constant player movements because of their set-up.

I'm not saying Nofo is completely faultless. He makes brain-dead decisions, but as you said, every backline shift involving a fullback creates an overlap, that's why it's become so successful in the modern game and why every team in the comp uses it - because it works. We don't defend well enough as a team to cover for it, and as a result Nofo is consistently caught as the last man in line in these plays - sometimes through his inside men, sometimes through fault of his own.

TL;DR every team in the comp designs plays to get around the winger, almost all defend it better than we do. Nofo makes bad decisions, but sometimes is faced with an overlap through no fault of his own and lackadaisical cover defence concedes points. Our left edge isn't consistently as bad because the gaps are further in field (either side of Brooks). We compress too far on the right and don't help enough on the left.

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Unread post by jirskyr » Mon 17 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm

VanillaThunder wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 1:43 pm
On Nofo holding until Marsters is truly beaten, that counters an up-and-in defence doesn't it? Isn't the point to stop (or at least slow down) ball movement before it makes the centre/winger, and if it does get that far out rely on inside cover to make the tackle? Now we're not exactly known for our hard-working middle defence, so maybe the problem lies with the defensive scheme, but Cleary has said he's only making minor adjustments in the meantime before starting fresh in 2018.
Well yeah it replaces the up-and-in. IMO Cleary from Day 1 in the job has been ironing out the up-in defence style for more sliding, and maybe, like he said, he can't reset the entire defensive structure at this time of year, but I've noticed more sliding.

Theoretically yeah you cut off the options out wide, but that assumes we get up and make effective tackles without offloads - offloads kill up-in. It also assumes your shape prevents cut-out or loop passes to hit players out wide, i.e. you are in their face and shutting them down. But guys like Nofo, I see them in the line, as in standing in the open spaces, and that becomes problematic. It's alright for intercepts and he's taken a few, but if you are in their attacking line in a gap, it means there are two players you aren't marking inside and out.

I personally believe true up-in defence was perfected by the Roosters early-mid 2000s, but then the speed of the game overcame the strategy within a few seasons; defences aren't currently able to get back and up quickly enough unless they are absolutely dominating the ruck. Especially true of Tigers, how can we possibly aggressively pursue up-in when our line speed stinks and we frequently lose control of the ruck / opposition momentum?
VanillaThunder wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 1:43 pm
In terms of edge disparity, like you said, on the left edge teams are playing for Brooks - on the right they're playing for Nofo. Without knowing stats and relying on selective memory, I seem to remember most of our tries on the left being either inside or outside shoulder of Brooks. Teams aren't challenging Tui that way (who on a side note I think is a worse individual defender than Brooks), because they know our edge defence leaks points easily enough. For that same reason, teams don't challenge Suli & Kev or MWZ because they know the guys on either side of Brooks (or Brooks himself) will do the same.
A few times yesterday MWZ got caught out as Nofo does, but whether it be due to a bad pass on occasion or just better cover defence, we didn't get burnt. I guess my argument there is that we tend to cover better on the left when the ball goes wide (for whatever reason), but teams just don't end up needing to pass that wide to score.
IMO MWZ didn't get caught like Nofo because he was ready to slide / back-track when we were beaten outside. Manly's RHS is Walker and Uate, no slouches and not lacking form. MWZ never committed so hard to coming in that he couldn't turn and chase - which is what kills Nofo, you see him realise he is caught, puff his cheeks like a magic dragon then try in vain to hustle the cover.

In terms of Suli not getting challenged, it happens all the time, esp the Titans game they just cut him up. Frozone was also struggling a lot defending in left centre when Suli was the winger, so deficiencies are not limited to the RHS.

To say Tui is worse than Brooks? Geez I didn't see Tui let an opposition forward stroll through untouched. Brooks is not so bad at hitting and sticking, but he still gets caught out a lot in defensive choices.
VanillaThunder wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 1:43 pm
How many times has there been a clean break down the right edge from mid-field or so, and it taking 20-30m before cover gets there (and it's generally Teddy)?
We are not a good defensive team. We have some good individual defenders in ET, McIlwrick, Lawrence/Edwards, even Woods, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can fit a team defensive scheme well. Similar situation arise in the NBA. Undersized (or unathletic) players may struggle in iso plays, but can be considered good (or passable) 'team defenders' when they're just another cog in the machine. When that machine isn't working is when poor defenders get isolated repeatedly, which I would suggest is what happens with us all too often.
Melbourne have solid defenders, but Finucane is probably one of the only ones I'd consider exceptional, and yet they scramble well, cover well, and are consistently one of the best defensive teams despite constant player movements because of their set-up.
I agree with all of this, there is far more to it than just Nofo, but he's a prime offender given his experience.


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Unread post by bathursttiger » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 6:42 am

momo&medo wrote:
Sun 16 Jul, 2017 7:15 pm
Current defensive reads are non existent.
He is becoming a real worry.
Someone needs to lock him in a room with a blackboard and a piece if chalk.
Maybe just tie a bit of rope to the touch judge so he can't move anymore then a few metres from the sideline.

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Unread post by larrycorowa » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 7:17 am

Missed the +20 dirty carries he made? He was very good again. We are still getting stripped for numbers from the middle, which is leaving our flanks exposed.

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Unread post by VanillaThunder » Tue 18 Jul, 2017 2:02 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm
But guys like Nofo, I see them in the line, as in standing in the open spaces, and that becomes problematic. It's alright for intercepts and he's taken a few, but if you are in their attacking line in a gap, it means there are two players you aren't marking inside and out.

Especially true of Tigers, how can we possibly aggressively pursue up-in when our line speed stinks and we frequently lose control of the ruck / opposition momentum?
That's the crux of it I guess, Nofo will come in either on the wrong man or for the sake of coming in to follow his centre, doesn't seem like there's much thought to it at all. And as you said, given we're constantly on the back foot it means he's always half a step behind the play.
You said it yourself, Cleary is looking to switch to a slide and I guess until then it's hard to judge. Up and in doesn't suit teams on the back foot and requires good decision-making, the former we've mastered but the latter is a while away.
Nofo isn't a defensive star, but his deficiencies can be covered better in a sliding defence, and combining that with his yardage in our own end makes calls for him to be dropped/never re-signed in the first place irrational (not directed at you, but other posters).
jirskyr wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm
IMO MWZ didn't get caught like Nofo because he was ready to slide / back-track when we were beaten outside. Manly's RHS is Walker and Uate, no slouches and not lacking form. MWZ never committed so hard to coming in that he couldn't turn and chase - which is what kills Nofo, you see him realise he is caught, puff his cheeks like a magic dragon then try in vain to hustle the cover.
See above, with the side note that MWZ is a better athlete than Nofo.
jirskyr wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm
In terms of Suli not getting challenged, it happens all the time, esp the Titans game they just cut him up. Frozone was also struggling a lot defending in left centre when Suli was the winger, so deficiencies are not limited to the RHS.
That's what I mean though, they're targeting the centre and back-rower either side of Brooks, which doesn't happen as much to Tui. Opposition teams know wrong decisions are made earlier in the defensive line on that side.
jirskyr wrote:
Mon 17 Jul, 2017 2:30 pm
To say Tui is worse than Brooks? Geez I didn't see Tui let an opposition forward stroll through untouched. Brooks is not so bad at hitting and sticking, but he still gets caught out a lot in defensive choices.
I'd argue that Brooks is a better individual defender, but Tui fits better in a team scheme. Brooks is generally capable of making a head-on tackle against much bigger men better than most, but makes decisions and tries to go for hero intercepts on set plays. Tui sticks in the line and generally does enough to slow the play down til help arrives, but one-on-one I'd prefer Brooks' defence.

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