WESTS Tigers Team V Manly

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Re: WESTS Tigers Team V Manly

Post by Telltails » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 7:43 am

Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 11:11 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 10:40 pm
What I'm looking forward to the most is the thread next Monday, if Tui doesn't play and we lose the game by a missed conversion or two.

It's a mistake from some posters to only look at his metres last week and say 46 isn't enough. I haven't even seen anyone analyse (if possible) the number of carries he had.

Just FYI in 3 matches, Tui has averaged 94 run metres which is 7th in the team, but more than MWZ, Mats, Packer, ET, Lawrence, Brooks, MCK. He has had 36 runs (12 per match av.) for 284 m = 7.89 m per carry av. Thommo on the other hand (our leading metre-gainer) has 5 matches, 76 runs, 641 m = 15 runs per match for 8.43 m per carry.

Not really that much of a difference except that Thommo takes an extra 3 runs for an extra half-metre each, but he's also scored a long-range try.

Also interesting that Tui is 14th in average run metres for all NRL fullbacks, but ahead of Flash Gordon, Billy Slater, Darius, Cotric, Bevan French. He is 1m behind Mbye, 2m behind Dugan, 3m behind Hampton and 4m behind Valentine Holmes.

Anyhow, rather than speculate why Tui was relegated, because Ivan won't state the reason explicitly in public I don't expect, I'm happy to consider this as evidence that there are high standards, and even a winning team can be changed. People used to whinge about lack of accountability at WT, so even if you can't guess why Tui was dropped, that is what accountability can look like.
Awesome post
If you watched the game you didnt need the stats to make your mind up about Tui's performance - they just backed it up. He looked lethargic and didnt run the ball nor did he go looking for it.
Wouldnt have been surprised if he was selected - again after all his goal kicking has been very good - but based on that performance not surprised he was dropped either.


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Post by Cultured Bogan » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 7:51 am

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 10:40 pm
What I'm looking forward to the most is the thread next Monday, if Tui doesn't play and we lose the game by a missed conversion or two.

It's a mistake from some posters to only look at his metres last week and say 46 isn't enough. I haven't even seen anyone analyse (if possible) the number of carries he had.

Just FYI in 3 matches, Tui has averaged 94 run metres which is 7th in the team, but more than MWZ, Mats, Packer, ET, Lawrence, Brooks, MCK. He has had 36 runs (12 per match av.) for 284 m = 7.89 m per carry av. Thommo on the other hand (our leading metre-gainer) has 5 matches, 76 runs, 641 m = 15 runs per match for 8.43 m per carry.

Not really that much of a difference except that Thommo takes an extra 3 runs for an extra half-metre each, but he's also scored a long-range try.

Also interesting that Tui is 14th in average run metres for all NRL fullbacks, but ahead of Flash Gordon, Billy Slater, Darius, Cotric, Bevan French. He is 1m behind Mbye, 2m behind Dugan, 3m behind Hampton and 4m behind Valentine Holmes.

Anyhow, rather than speculate why Tui was relegated, because Ivan won't state the reason explicitly in public I don't expect, I'm happy to consider this as evidence that there are high standards, and even a winning team can be changed. People used to whinge about lack of accountability at WT, so even if you can't guess why Tui was dropped, that is what accountability can look like.
Ivan obviously has weighed what Tui brings in goalkicking against what Thompson does in other facets of the game.

Either that, or he's just told everyone to score under the posts.
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Post by Clearyweareone » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:03 am

I love the winning culture IC has bought to the club.

We have 27 contracted NRL players vying for 17 NRL spots each week.

No player should be safe even if the team is winning or not.

Godinet was in the squad whilst Liddle was injured then assisted whilst Liddle built up match fitness and now Reynolds is back his services are not required. He was a stop gap measure.

Tui is our best goal kicker which is very important giving the closeness of our games and how crucial 2 points is, however his performance last week, whether carrying an injury or not was not good enough to hold his spot for this week's 17.

Manly at home are a completely different side especially with turbo Tom back and DCE kicking game. Tui's performance last week would be a huge liability this week.

Thompson has taken his opportunity with both hands and full back is where we need him this week with Nofo gaining his chance to shine in the top grade to make the dirty metres from our goal line.

Taylor will be back from injury soon and will more than likely regain his starting spot at lock meaning all the bench players need to step up to hold their position.

Packer is a huge loss however Jessie Sue has played 101 NRL games and on his day is a very good player when he plays in short bursts. He appears to have the jump on Grant and JJ Feleise so he needs to take this opportunity with both hands.

If Goal kicking is the reason we lose this weekend then Ivan Cleary needs to seriously consider the following options:

Tui to centre and Kevin to wing allowing Tui to Goal Kick

Tui to centre and Kevin to full back, Thompson to wing. Tui to goal kick

Gamble to centre and Kevin to wing allowing Gamble to Goal kick

Gamble to wing/full back allowing him to Goal kick.

Ivan Clearly and Brett Hodgson were excellent goal kickers so we need them to impart their knowledge and techniques onto a group of players going forward.

Believe we have the team to beat Manly (they have had their share of injuries in key positions) even though our record at Brookvale is very poor (only one win). Turbo Tom is the danger man. Aloiai to run at their 5/8 all game.

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Post by stevied » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:45 am

Clearyweareone wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:03 am
I love the winning culture IC has bought to the club.

We have 27 contracted NRL players vying for 17 NRL spots each week.

No player should be safe even if the team is winning or not.

Godinet was in the squad whilst Liddle was injured then assisted whilst Liddle built up match fitness and now Reynolds is back his services are not required. He was a stop gap measure.

Tui is our best goal kicker which is very important giving the closeness of our games and how crucial 2 points is, however his performance last week, whether carrying an injury or not was not good enough to hold his spot for this week's 17.

Manly at home are a completely different side especially with turbo Tom back and DCE kicking game. Tui's performance last week would be a huge liability this week.

Thompson has taken his opportunity with both hands and full back is where we need him this week with Nofo gaining his chance to shine in the top grade to make the dirty metres from our goal line.

Taylor will be back from injury soon and will more than likely regain his starting spot at lock meaning all the bench players need to step up to hold their position.

Packer is a huge loss however Jessie Sue has played 101 NRL games and on his day is a very good player when he plays in short bursts. He appears to have the jump on Grant and JJ Feleise so he needs to take this opportunity with both hands.

If Goal kicking is the reason we lose this weekend then Ivan Cleary needs to seriously consider the following options:

Tui to centre and Kevin to wing allowing Tui to Goal Kick

Tui to centre and Kevin to full back, Thompson to wing. Tui to goal kick

Gamble to centre and Kevin to wing allowing Gamble to Goal kick

Gamble to wing/full back allowing him to Goal kick.

Ivan Clearly and Brett Hodgson were excellent goal kickers so we need them to impart their knowledge and techniques onto a group of players going forward.

Believe we have the team to beat Manly (they have had their share of injuries in key positions) even though our record at Brookvale is very poor (only one win). Turbo Tom is the danger man. Aloiai to run at their 5/8 all game.
Great post. I agree with all your assertions and suggestions.

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Post by jirskyr » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 10:49 am

Telltails wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 7:43 am
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 11:11 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 10:40 pm
What I'm looking forward to the most is the thread next Monday, if Tui doesn't play and we lose the game by a missed conversion or two.

It's a mistake from some posters to only look at his metres last week and say 46 isn't enough. I haven't even seen anyone analyse (if possible) the number of carries he had.

Just FYI in 3 matches, Tui has averaged 94 run metres which is 7th in the team, but more than MWZ, Mats, Packer, ET, Lawrence, Brooks, MCK. He has had 36 runs (12 per match av.) for 284 m = 7.89 m per carry av. Thommo on the other hand (our leading metre-gainer) has 5 matches, 76 runs, 641 m = 15 runs per match for 8.43 m per carry.

Not really that much of a difference except that Thommo takes an extra 3 runs for an extra half-metre each, but he's also scored a long-range try.

Also interesting that Tui is 14th in average run metres for all NRL fullbacks, but ahead of Flash Gordon, Billy Slater, Darius, Cotric, Bevan French. He is 1m behind Mbye, 2m behind Dugan, 3m behind Hampton and 4m behind Valentine Holmes.

Anyhow, rather than speculate why Tui was relegated, because Ivan won't state the reason explicitly in public I don't expect, I'm happy to consider this as evidence that there are high standards, and even a winning team can be changed. People used to whinge about lack of accountability at WT, so even if you can't guess why Tui was dropped, that is what accountability can look like.
Awesome post
If you watched the game you didnt need the stats to make your mind up about Tui's performance - they just backed it up. He looked lethargic and didnt run the ball nor did he go looking for it.
Wouldnt have been surprised if he was selected - again after all his goal kicking has been very good - but based on that performance not surprised he was dropped either.
I think we all watched the game?

Point I was making the stats, being middle-ground (i.e. not clearly great or clearly bad) are up for a lot of interpretation, and I am seeing on here a 50/50 split as to whether or not Tui had a decent game last week. I look at his stats, I watched the match in earnest and I thought he did alright, and I am surprised that Tui was dropped. I think Thommo is great but I still think he lacks that x-factor upside that Tui has, and I also am fully aware that Tui alone kicked us to victory at least twice this year with sideline conversions, plus the equaliser and 7-tackle set for the win last week.

At least we can all agree, that due to depth, if Ivan chooses to change up the team for any reason at all, then the alternative option is still rather good.


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Post by Spartan117 » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 11:11 am

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 10:40 pm
What I'm looking forward to the most is the thread next Monday, if Tui doesn't play and we lose the game by a missed conversion or two.

It's a mistake from some posters to only look at his metres last week and say 46 isn't enough. I haven't even seen anyone analyse (if possible) the number of carries he had.

Just FYI in 3 matches, Tui has averaged 94 run metres which is 7th in the team, but more than MWZ, Mats, Packer, ET, Lawrence, Brooks, MCK. He has had 36 runs (12 per match av.) for 284 m = 7.89 m per carry av. Thommo on the other hand (our leading metre-gainer) has 5 matches, 76 runs, 641 m = 15 runs per match for 8.43 m per carry.

Not really that much of a difference except that Thommo takes an extra 3 runs for an extra half-metre each, but he's also scored a long-range try.

Also interesting that Tui is 14th in average run metres for all NRL fullbacks, but ahead of Flash Gordon, Billy Slater, Darius, Cotric, Bevan French. He is 1m behind Mbye, 2m behind Dugan, 3m behind Hampton and 4m behind Valentine Holmes.

Anyhow, rather than speculate why Tui was relegated, because Ivan won't state the reason explicitly in public I don't expect, I'm happy to consider this as evidence that there are high standards, and even a winning team can be changed. People used to whinge about lack of accountability at WT, so even if you can't guess why Tui was dropped, that is what accountability can look like.

Solid post - Stats are very good and this points more to clarity of direction by the Coach

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Post by Spartan117 » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 11:15 am

Another point is we need to somehow learn to win by more than a conversion or 2.

Scraping through scoring 10 points a game wont get us as far as we want to go this year or next

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Post by Balmainian » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 11:22 am

Clearyweareone wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:03 am
I love the winning culture IC has bought to the club.

We have 27 contracted NRL players vying for 17 NRL spots each week.

No player should be safe even if the team is winning or not.

Godinet was in the squad whilst Liddle was injured then assisted whilst Liddle built up match fitness and now Reynolds is back his services are not required. He was a stop gap measure.

Tui is our best goal kicker which is very important giving the closeness of our games and how crucial 2 points is, however his performance last week, whether carrying an injury or not was not good enough to hold his spot for this week's 17.

Manly at home are a completely different side especially with turbo Tom back and DCE kicking game. Tui's performance last week would be a huge liability this week.

Thompson has taken his opportunity with both hands and full back is where we need him this week with Nofo gaining his chance to shine in the top grade to make the dirty metres from our goal line.

Taylor will be back from injury soon and will more than likely regain his starting spot at lock meaning all the bench players need to step up to hold their position.

Packer is a huge loss however Jessie Sue has played 101 NRL games and on his day is a very good player when he plays in short bursts. He appears to have the jump on Grant and JJ Feleise so he needs to take this opportunity with both hands.

If Goal kicking is the reason we lose this weekend then Ivan Cleary needs to seriously consider the following options:

Tui to centre and Kevin to wing allowing Tui to Goal Kick

Tui to centre and Kevin to full back, Thompson to wing. Tui to goal kick

Gamble to centre and Kevin to wing allowing Gamble to Goal kick

Gamble to wing/full back allowing him to Goal kick.

Ivan Clearly and Brett Hodgson were excellent goal kickers so we need them to impart their knowledge and techniques onto a group of players going forward.

Believe we have the team to beat Manly (they have had their share of injuries in key positions) even though our record at Brookvale is very poor (only one win). Turbo Tom is the danger man. Aloiai to run at their 5/8 all game.
Manly have beaten parra and Canberra this year.
I think we have a really solid chance at being 5-1 going into next week.

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Post by The Old Fox » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:23 pm

Telltails wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 7:43 am
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 11:11 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 10:40 pm
What I'm looking forward to the most is the thread next Monday, if Tui doesn't play and we lose the game by a missed conversion or two.

It's a mistake from some posters to only look at his metres last week and say 46 isn't enough. I haven't even seen anyone analyse (if possible) the number of carries he had.

Just FYI in 3 matches, Tui has averaged 94 run metres which is 7th in the team, but more than MWZ, Mats, Packer, ET, Lawrence, Brooks, MCK. He has had 36 runs (12 per match av.) for 284 m = 7.89 m per carry av. Thommo on the other hand (our leading metre-gainer) has 5 matches, 76 runs, 641 m = 15 runs per match for 8.43 m per carry.

Not really that much of a difference except that Thommo takes an extra 3 runs for an extra half-metre each, but he's also scored a long-range try.

Also interesting that Tui is 14th in average run metres for all NRL fullbacks, but ahead of Flash Gordon, Billy Slater, Darius, Cotric, Bevan French. He is 1m behind Mbye, 2m behind Dugan, 3m behind Hampton and 4m behind Valentine Holmes.

Anyhow, rather than speculate why Tui was relegated, because Ivan won't state the reason explicitly in public I don't expect, I'm happy to consider this as evidence that there are high standards, and even a winning team can be changed. People used to whinge about lack of accountability at WT, so even if you can't guess why Tui was dropped, that is what accountability can look like.
Awesome post
If you watched the game you didnt need the stats to make your mind up about Tui's performance - they just backed it up. He looked lethargic and didnt run the ball nor did he go looking for it.
Wouldnt have been surprised if he was selected - again after all his goal kicking has been very good - but based on that performance not surprised he was dropped either.
He can't tackle head on and hides a little in defence..or to put it another way, his not prepared to brake his nose to save the day like Thompson is and I think Ivan knows it.. I don't necessarily think it's his attack. Ivan gave him a chance like he said he would, but we can't carry a guy hiding from Tom Trbojvic charging at him Thompson would have plastic surgery to stop him going over the line,

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Post by krayola » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:29 pm

kh_canada wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 6:36 am
I know it's been said before, but Tui could have been dropped due to his injury, not being 100% and looking a little stiff. Yeah, he's named in ISP, but that's exactly the place to come back from an injury when you're not up for FG standard. He's not still injured so it's not like he's risking anything by playing, he's just not up to IC standard.
Completely agree.
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Post by krayola » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:32 pm

Tacky wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 11:26 pm
krayola wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 11:02 pm
Tacky wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 9:26 pm
krayola wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 9:20 pm
lol lol lol Mats and Packer have formed a far more devastating combo than anyone we've had since 2011...yeah, Mats drops the ball a bit but that's about it. The team's defensive stats seem to be just fine with him on the field and that game winning try assist against Melbourne is a nice bonus. Some very short memories on here want Jack Buchanan and Woodsy to come back apparently.
Please, anyone but Buchanan!
Right?! Seriously, I remember him starting our first game against the Knights in 2013 and me thinking we were in a lot of trouble for that year. Turned out that was his best game for us...and we lost by 40 :D
Corey Patterson, Kyle Lovett, Adam Blair, Joel Edwards, Brendan Santi.... And thats just the last couple of years, the list goes on and on. We look so much better right now.
Joel Edwards, Lovett and Paterson are all playing in Division 1 English League this year. Not Super League but Div 1. Says it all really.
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Post by bp tiger » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:49 pm

why is benji not kicking.

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Post by kh_canada » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 1:17 pm

bp tiger wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:49 pm
why is benji not kicking.
My best guess would be because he hasn't kicked in FG for a couple years. He might just be teeing it up this weekend though with no Tui, Marsters was nothing to write home about.
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Post by snowleopard » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 1:20 pm

Benji is taking the kick offs so doubt it cause of an injury. Probably cause they want someone who plays 80 mins each week and if Reynolds didn't get injured Benji wouldn't be playing 80 mins.

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Post by rex2ce » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 1:56 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 10:49 am
Telltails wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 7:43 am
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 11:11 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 10:40 pm
What I'm looking forward to the most is the thread next Monday, if Tui doesn't play and we lose the game by a missed conversion or two.

It's a mistake from some posters to only look at his metres last week and say 46 isn't enough. I haven't even seen anyone analyse (if possible) the number of carries he had.

Just FYI in 3 matches, Tui has averaged 94 run metres which is 7th in the team, but more than MWZ, Mats, Packer, ET, Lawrence, Brooks, MCK. He has had 36 runs (12 per match av.) for 284 m = 7.89 m per carry av. Thommo on the other hand (our leading metre-gainer) has 5 matches, 76 runs, 641 m = 15 runs per match for 8.43 m per carry.


Not really that much of a difference except that Thommo takes an extra 3 runs for an extra half-metre each, but he's also scored a long-range try.

Also interesting that Tui is 14th in average run metres for all NRL fullbacks, but ahead of Flash Gordon, Billy Slater, Darius, Cotric, Bevan French. He is 1m behind Mbye, 2m behind Dugan, 3m behind Hampton and 4m behind Valentine Holmes.

Anyhow, rather than speculate why Tui was relegated, because Ivan won't state the reason explicitly in public I don't expect, I'm happy to consider this as evidence that there are high standards, and even a winning team can be changed. People used to whinge about lack of accountability at WT, so even if you can't guess why Tui was dropped, that is what accountability can look like.
Awesome post
If you watched the game you didnt need the stats to make your mind up about Tui's performance - they just backed it up. He looked lethargic and didnt run the ball nor did he go looking for it.
Wouldnt have been surprised if he was selected - again after all his goal kicking has been very good - but based on that performance not surprised he was dropped either.
I think we all watched the game?

Point I was making the stats, being middle-ground (i.e. not clearly great or clearly bad) are up for a lot of interpretation, and I am seeing on here a 50/50 split as to whether or not Tui had a decent game last week. I look at his stats, I watched the match in earnest and I thought he did alright, and I am surprised that Tui was dropped. I think Thommo is great but I still think he lacks that x-factor upside that Tui has, and I also am fully aware that Tui alone kicked us to victory at least twice this year with sideline conversions, plus the equaliser and 7-tackle set for the win last week.

At least we can all agree, that due to depth, if Ivan chooses to change up the team for any reason at all, then the alternative option is still rather good.
I have yet to see any X factor from Tui, starting to wonder if he actually has it.

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Post by Jay » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 3:40 pm

Tui could replace MWZ right? MWZ has looked just 'OK' to me, I feel like out of all positions, that would be the most realistic for Tui to cover, and perhaps provide a little more danger....And get the goal kicking.

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Post by dazza65 » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 7:32 pm

formerguest wrote:
Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:15 am
dazza65 wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 6:36 pm
Besides the other posters comments, Nofa is a huge metre eater and tackle buster so adds that in absence of packer
An odd reason, though I was also thinking that as part of the reasoning, because we have not had much need for those metres thus far.
Not sure I’d say “odd”, maybe a touch counterintuitive but an important aspect of all wingers job descriptions these days is the hit up working as extra forwards so even though this may not have been the main reason behind IC’s decision, I am sure it was part of the discussion based on the total metres our back three have been accumulating.
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Post by Balmainian » Wed 11 Apr, 2018 9:40 pm

851 wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 7:37 pm
Geo. wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 5:57 pm
Snake wrote:
Tue 10 Apr, 2018 5:17 pm
DCE and Turbo are smiling Nofoaluma is back thanks Ivan .
I know bit like when Cammy and Addo-Carr were licking their lips Rd 2..

What is Ivan thinking...
:roll
Last time we played manly The Nof got us back in the contest with two intercepts.
I think Nof will be licking his lips.

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