It is now when Tim Sheens needs to stand up and be counted

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Re: It is now when Tim Sheens needs to stand up and be counted

Post by TIGERS » Mon 12 Apr, 2010 4:14 pm

Balmain Bug wrote: This week is the time for the Fonz to stand up and be counted.
EVERY week is the time for the so called 'Fonz' to stand up and be counted. Him and any player who ever pulls on a Wests Tigers jumper! It's completely futile to suggest that so much hinges on one single game. I felt inclined to suggest something similar about last weeks game... thank god the Mods didn't post it because I was dead wrong... I ate humble pie last Saturday night and enjoyed every piece.

If you had asked me late 2009 (during our winning streak), if Sheens could pick a Tigers team that would beat the Cowboys in Townsville... WITHOUT picking Taniela, Galloway, Gallant, Lui and Moltzen... I would've told you it couldn't be done. Again I would've been dead wrong. But Sheens did it. He even named Fitzhenry in a starting side. Who'd have thought eh.

I don't know enough about Football to make presumptuous claims about who should play where...and who shouldn't. The thing that is DEAD OBVIOUS when it comes to the Tigers is that we struggle to perform at our best week in week out. I honestly think it is that simple. Anything else is fairly irrelevant. Its an Emotional/Cultural problem rather than a Tactical/Technical one. If we played somewhere close to our best every week we would be unstoppable. Almost every expert in league has admitted this.

I often wonder what Tim Sheens actually does in the lead up to a game to get our players fired up... to get them believing in themselves... to make his Team want to smash their bodies and put it all on the line week in week out. To give it everything they have got. Does he give them a stirring speech? Does he make bold gestures? Is it something consisting of a White board and power point presentation? Does he prefer to talk to the whole team? or Individual Players?

One of the best defensive performances of our history was last year against the Melbourne Storm. Before that match the The Tigers were given a pre-game speech by Arthur Beetson. Here is what Robbie said after the match...

"When a guy of Artie Beetson's stature speaks, you tend to listen," Tigers captain Robbie Farah said.

"He came in and told us it's not always (about) the team of champions. You go out there and you work for each other and work for your mate next to you.

"A name on a piece of paper doesn't really matter."


In 2005 before playing the Broncos in the finals, Paul Harragon came in and talked to the team. Here is what Skando said at the time.

"He told us never to give up and obviously the 1997 grand final was mentioned because the Knights were down and out and they picked themselves up and won the game," Skandalis said. " A lot of the young guys here watched that game and remembered it, and I think that's what we all did today - we dug deep."

Sheens also had Noel Kelly come in for our first ever finals game against the Cowboys.

A pre-match pep talk from former test prop Noel Kelly helped settle the Wests Tigers' nerves before they thumped North Queensland 50-6 in the NRL's first qualifying final at Telstra Stadium.

Here are 3 examples of Former Legends motivating the team before a game. 3 gutsy unforgettable wins. Seeing this happen so often makes me wonder... Does Tim Sheens ever do that? Can he do it on his own? Does he know how?, Does he like doing it?, Do our players respond to him doing it?.... Of course the million dollar question is...

Can he do it week in week out?

Its entirely possible that this is what the main problem and weakness is when it comes to Tim Sheens and the Tigers. I also think that Tim Sheens is completely aware of this. That is why he has only signed on for another year. His technical knowledge and skills as a modern football coach are unsurpassed. Our team is fast, fit, strong and skillful. Like all good clubs we have experienced clubmen and talented juniors.

I think Sheens is experiencing something very similar to what Phil Gould went through at the Roosters. Gould certainly knew how to coach, he knew how to win, he had the players, but he just couldn't get them to fire at the right time. Graham Murray took over Gould's team and got them to a Grand Final in his first year. In 2002 a guy like Ricky Stuart (who is all heart and no brains when it comes to coaching) made them World Beaters. Even good old Tommy Raudonikis was able to get the Magpies into the finals for a couple of seasons after it had gone pear shaped for Warren Ryan.

Of course thing that makes it difficult to argue about Sheens is the fact that he has already won us a Premiership! I haven't forgotten this and I never will. There is also the possibility that I could be dead wrong about everything I have just written. It could be the players who lack heart... not Sheens. There are some things we will never know.

Except that calling him "Fonz" 3000 times in one paragraph isn't very funny.
Teams do not go physically flat, they go mentally stale...


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Post by Glennb » Mon 12 Apr, 2010 4:28 pm

Some great points. Good post, howeverI dont think there would be a single coach in the NRL that could "inspire" by a rousing speech week in week out. They simply see the guy 6 days a week and that sort of familiarity detracts from the inspiration. He is like their Dad, they are more likely to listen to the same points from a fresh personal perspective. Any coach including Sheens is about instilling a core of skills, fitness and attitude that equip and INDIVIDUAL to perform his role within a TEAM. It is then up to that individual to perform.

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Post by TIGERS » Mon 12 Apr, 2010 4:42 pm

Glennb wrote:Some great points. Good post, howeverI dont think there would be a single coach in the NRL that could "inspire" by a rousing speech week in week out. They simply see the guy 6 days a week and that sort of familiarity detracts from the inspiration. He is like their Dad, they are more likely to listen to the same points from a fresh personal perspective. Any coach including Sheens is about instilling a core of skills, fitness and attitude that equip and INDIVIDUAL to perform his role within a TEAM. It is then up to that individual to perform.

Glenn
Lol. What i meant by week in week out was... Can Sheens get the tigers to give 100% week in week out. Not could he give a rousing speech week in week out. That would be stupid. Badly written stuff on my part....
Teams do not go physically flat, they go mentally stale...

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Post by Glennb » Mon 12 Apr, 2010 5:02 pm

TIGERS wrote:
Glennb wrote:Some great points. Good post, howeverI dont think there would be a single coach in the NRL that could "inspire" by a rousing speech week in week out. They simply see the guy 6 days a week and that sort of familiarity detracts from the inspiration. He is like their Dad, they are more likely to listen to the same points from a fresh personal perspective. Any coach including Sheens is about instilling a core of skills, fitness and attitude that equip and INDIVIDUAL to perform his role within a TEAM. It is then up to that individual to perform.

Glenn
Lol. What i meant by week in week out was... Can Sheens get the tigers to give 100% week in week out. Not could he give a rousing speech week in week out. That would be stupid. Badly written stuff on my part....
I dont disagree with anything you have said, but from my point of view....the first 5 games of this year, taken as a whole is the best we have looked since the back end of 2005 (bear in mind we looked average at the start of 05). I am willing to have a wait & see approach.

Also the fact that three of our 4 wins have involved BIG come from behind efforts means that the committment IS there, it is just a matter of consistency and being up for the 80 mins.

Glenn

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Post by Balmain Bug » Tue 13 Apr, 2010 3:53 am

Good post TIGERS.
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Post by Mona Lolesi » Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:18 pm

Balmain Bug wrote: Mona Lolesi, I wish to officially declare, that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Rugby League in NSW.
Prove me wrong, hopefully it involves more hilarious nicknames for coaches.
Across the board, traditionally it is rare for a player from state cup to make the step up.
However, traditionally it is common for people on here to go on about players that are being robbed of their chance.
For example, Hanbury and Trimarchi...they didn't even get picked up by an NRL club or even a good ESL club.
In fact, most nrl players that are in state cup are there because they are dropped or are punished for a misdemeanour.
How this implies I know nothing about league in NSW is ridiculous.

We are 4 and 1 and you still want to complain.

Btw I am still wondering whether you could inform me when Lima will be arriving to the tigers?

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Post by southerntiger » Tue 13 Apr, 2010 1:55 pm

TIGERS wrote:
Balmain Bug wrote: This week is the time for the Fonz to stand up and be counted.
EVERY week is the time for the so called 'Fonz' to stand up and be counted. Him and any player who ever pulls on a Wests Tigers jumper! It's completely futile to suggest that so much hinges on one single game. I felt inclined to suggest something similar about last weeks game... thank god the Mods didn't post it because I was dead wrong... I ate humble pie last Saturday night and enjoyed every piece.

If you had asked me late 2009 (during our winning streak), if Sheens could pick a Tigers team that would beat the Cowboys in Townsville... WITHOUT picking Taniela, Galloway, Gallant, Lui and Moltzen... I would've told you it couldn't be done. Again I would've been dead wrong. But Sheens did it. He even named Fitzhenry in a starting side. Who'd have thought eh.

I don't know enough about Football to make presumptuous claims about who should play where...and who shouldn't. The thing that is DEAD OBVIOUS when it comes to the Tigers is that we struggle to perform at our best week in week out. I honestly think it is that simple. Anything else is fairly irrelevant. Its an Emotional/Cultural problem rather than a Tactical/Technical one. If we played somewhere close to our best every week we would be unstoppable. Almost every expert in league has admitted this.

I often wonder what Tim Sheens actually does in the lead up to a game to get our players fired up... to get them believing in themselves... to make his Team want to smash their bodies and put it all on the line week in week out. To give it everything they have got. Does he give them a stirring speech? Does he make bold gestures? Is it something consisting of a White board and power point presentation? Does he prefer to talk to the whole team? or Individual Players?

One of the best defensive performances of our history was last year against the Melbourne Storm. Before that match the The Tigers were given a pre-game speech by Arthur Beetson. Here is what Robbie said after the match...

"When a guy of Artie Beetson's stature speaks, you tend to listen," Tigers captain Robbie Farah said.

"He came in and told us it's not always (about) the team of champions. You go out there and you work for each other and work for your mate next to you.

"A name on a piece of paper doesn't really matter."


In 2005 before playing the Broncos in the finals, Paul Harragon came in and talked to the team. Here is what Skando said at the time.

"He told us never to give up and obviously the 1997 grand final was mentioned because the Knights were down and out and they picked themselves up and won the game," Skandalis said. " A lot of the young guys here watched that game and remembered it, and I think that's what we all did today - we dug deep."

Sheens also had Noel Kelly come in for our first ever finals game against the Cowboys.

A pre-match pep talk from former test prop Noel Kelly helped settle the Wests Tigers' nerves before they thumped North Queensland 50-6 in the NRL's first qualifying final at Telstra Stadium.

Here are 3 examples of Former Legends motivating the team before a game. 3 gutsy unforgettable wins. Seeing this happen so often makes me wonder... Does Tim Sheens ever do that? Can he do it on his own? Does he know how?, Does he like doing it?, Do our players respond to him doing it?.... Of course the million dollar question is...

Can he do it week in week out?

Its entirely possible that this is what the main problem and weakness is when it comes to Tim Sheens and the Tigers. I also think that Tim Sheens is completely aware of this. That is why he has only signed on for another year. His technical knowledge and skills as a modern football coach are unsurpassed. Our team is fast, fit, strong and skillful. Like all good clubs we have experienced clubmen and talented juniors.

I think Sheens is experiencing something very similar to what Phil Gould went through at the Roosters. Gould certainly knew how to coach, he knew how to win, he had the players, but he just couldn't get them to fire at the right time. Graham Murray took over Gould's team and got them to a Grand Final in his first year. In 2002 a guy like Ricky Stuart (who is all heart and no brains when it comes to coaching) made them World Beaters. Even good old Tommy Raudonikis was able to get the Magpies into the finals for a couple of seasons after it had gone pear shaped for Warren Ryan.

Of course thing that makes it difficult to argue about Sheens is the fact that he has already won us a Premiership! I haven't forgotten this and I never will. There is also the possibility that I could be dead wrong about everything I have just written. It could be the players who lack heart... not Sheens. There are some things we will never know.

Except that calling him "Fonz" 3000 times in one paragraph isn't very funny.
Great post Tigers.

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Post by Balmain Bug » Wed 14 Apr, 2010 5:46 pm

Mona Lolesi wrote:
Balmain Bug wrote: Mona Lolesi, I wish to officially declare, that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Rugby League in NSW.
Prove me wrong, hopefully it involves more hilarious nicknames for coaches.
Across the board, traditionally it is rare for a player from state cup to make the step up.
However, traditionally it is common for people on here to go on about players that are being robbed of their chance.
For example, Hanbury and Trimarchi...they didn't even get picked up by an NRL club or even a good ESL club.
In fact, most nrl players that are in state cup are there because they are dropped or are punished for a misdemeanour.
How this implies I know nothing about league in NSW is ridiculous.

We are 4 and 1 and you still want to complain.

Btw I am still wondering whether you could inform me when Lima will be arriving to the tigers?
Mouni Lolesi,
Did you hear Peter Mullholland on the Fox Sports commentary for BRET v the Melbourne Storm?

He compared State Cup to U20's. Blew your stupid thoughts of that competition out of the water and into another universe. The half time score was 4-0 and he said if it were an U20's game the score would have been a half time blow out. He said the State Cup was a great breading ground for NRL and steels players for the rigours of NRL. He said the U20's was well below the State Cup in standard etc.

Its not often I say this Mouni,

But you can well and truly Sit on it !!
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Post by Mona Lolesi » Wed 14 Apr, 2010 6:44 pm

So you've based your entire opinion of the state cup on a halftime report by one commentator on fox sports....
Well case closed then.

I don't know why you decided launch a tirade against me but in the interest of healthy debate without abusing me can you please consider the following:
At no point did I consider which I thought was the superior competition as it is unfair to compare especially in the forwards just due to physical development (on average, across the board). Also when you consider that so many standouts from under 20's are promoted to the top grade (which leads to my conclusion further down) it reduces the quality of the competition. But I would consider that the number of under 20's being promoted will always outnumber the players promoted from state cup.
Essentially this comes from me originally talking about trends in the NRL, specifically for this beloved club. How many players to people get excited over from state cup that crack it in first grade. Very few, if any.
Now when they leave our club they don't ever really amount to anything.
For example.
Rhys Hanbury - didn't get picked up by another NRL club, is now playing for Celtic which is hardly the glamour club of the ESL.
Rocky Trimarchi - See above
Shannon Gallant - got picked up by the cowboys, currently 3rd choice fullback behind Bowen and Ty Williams who for all sakes and purposes isn't a fullback by trade.
Ryan Tandy - the most successful out of the state cup bunch to leave.
Daine Laurie - We will see

Conversely, there are the Wests Tigers debutants in recent years that have been from the Toyota Cup Squad or recently graduated from.
ie. Andrew Fifita, Blake Ayshford, Jason Schirnak, Simon Dwyer, Robert Lui, Peni Tagive and Tim Moltzen.
Its an uneven keel, and hard to argue that these players have legitimately robbed a state cup player of their chance in first grade.
So you can go on about your favourites in state cup and argue and whinge all you want. But you're agenda to be proven right or your bizarre need to flood the board with your ranting and raving is tiresome.

Just to clarify, or to educate me as it's apparent I'm clueless when it comes to the state of nsw rugby league and you are the one with the PHD.
Can you please explain what type of "breading" (or should it be psomi? katalveneis malaka?) ground is it for the NRL? Wholemeal, sourdough or multigrain?

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Post by smeghead » Wed 14 Apr, 2010 6:58 pm

Just one point of correction without getting involved in this little spat

Blake Ayshford, Peni Tagive and Tim Moltzen all played a good period of time in State Cup and, IMHO of course, this gave them a real leg up in terms of their success

Jason Schirnak was playing football in open age A grade and the NZ equivalent of State Cup since he was 16

Andrew Fifita & Simon Dwyer I agree with you completely that the NYC competition provided exactly what they needed to make the next step in terms of instilling a work ethic and establishing training regimes for them.

One final point I would make is that I really believe the NRL has this all arse about with NYC & State Cup. I think the overall standard of the NRL would be greater if the money in NYC was put into a National reserve grade comp. Younger guys who are good enough will still play in this tier and overall it is a far better model for players longevity in the game.

Oh and on topic it is great to see players replaced by specialist players in that position
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Post by Balmain Bug » Wed 14 Apr, 2010 9:25 pm

]
Mona Lolesi wrote:So you've based your entire opinion of the state cup on a halftime report by one commentator on fox sports....
Well case closed then.

I don't know why you decided launch a tirade against me but in the interest of healthy debate without abusing me can you please consider the following:
At no point did I consider which I thought was the superior competition as it is unfair to compare especially in the forwards just due to physical development (on average, across the board). Also when you consider that so many standouts from under 20's are promoted to the top grade (which leads to my conclusion further down) it reduces the quality of the competition. But I would consider that the number of under 20's being promoted will always outnumber the players promoted from state cup.
Essentially this comes from me originally talking about trends in the NRL, specifically for this beloved club. How many players to people get excited over from state cup that crack it in first grade. Very few, if any.
Now when they leave our club they don't ever really amount to anything.
For example.
Rhys Hanbury - didn't get picked up by another NRL club, is now playing for Celtic which is hardly the glamour club of the ESL.
Rocky Trimarchi - See above
Shannon Gallant - got picked up by the cowboys, currently 3rd choice fullback behind Bowen and Ty Williams who for all sakes and purposes isn't a fullback by trade.
Ryan Tandy - the most successful out of the state cup bunch to leave.
Daine Laurie - We will see

Conversely, there are the Wests Tigers debutants in recent years that have been from the Toyota Cup Squad or recently graduated from.
ie. Andrew Fifita, Blake Ayshford, Jason Schirnak, Simon Dwyer, Robert Lui, Peni Tagive and Tim Moltzen.
Its an uneven keel, and hard to argue that these players have legitimately robbed a state cup player of their chance in first grade.
So you can go on about your favourites in state cup and argue and whinge all you want. But you're agenda to be proven right or your bizarre need to flood the board with your ranting and raving is tiresome.

Just to clarify, or to educate me as it's apparent I'm clueless when it comes to the state of nsw rugby league and you are the one with the PHD.
Can you please explain what type of "breading" (or should it be psomi? katalveneis malaka?) ground is it for the NRL? Wholemeal, sourdough or multigrain?

evcharisto
Mounaki

Good response.

Low GI for me as I have Impaired Glucose Tolerance.
I gave you a serve because you initially said that State Cup was good for nothing. Shannon Gallant is not 3rd choice he is now 1st available choice. Williams is in reserve grade. But If you believe that NYC is the ducks guts then good on ya.

My arguments are based on watching players who have been promoted to 1st grade i.e. Brown and Daniela who when they play State Cup, get walked all over by players like Pritchard and Davis. So the point I am making is that if Pritchard and Davis tear strips off Brown and Daniela at State Cup level I feel they would be a better option in 1st grade based on merit.

Do you not agree Gallant was great for us last year? His tries were slashing !!

Any way, each to there own. I love posting on this forum because I have strong thoughts on who should be given a fair go and players that perhaps should be given more time in the State Cup. Unfortunately, many players have been picked in this side over the years without merit and it has been to the great detriment of the team and its supporters.

Poor performers have found it alot more difficult to get dropped from the WT side than to make it into the team. I like to voice my views for the players that bust a gut week in week out because they deserve a voice of support.

Head out to a game. Come and watch one with me, either BRET or the Magpies and you will walk away with a smile on your face and an infectious interest in some of the players that you have just watched play.

That interest I guess then becomes a vested interest. Thats why people like myself are so passionate about our State Cup players.

I will give you an example. Lee Bennett is the BRET winger and Captain and has been for a number of years. Now WT, BRET, NYC and Magpies have some very good candidates as wingers, but Lee BENNETT probably fairs way down that list, but I can tell you something, he is a zillion times better player than Mitch Brown. Absolutely kills Brown in every facet of the game. But he will never get an opportunity in 1st grade.

I like to support the blokes who are the salt of the earth of the WT family.

Thats just me. I cheer hard for Brown when he pulls on the WT jumper, but I cheer harder for those who deserve it more.

Ya.
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Post by Year of the Tiger » Wed 14 Apr, 2010 9:31 pm

Can we please ban the use massive font and bold? Especially if its derogatory. If what you have to say is important it will be read anyway.
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Post by Geo. » Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:02 pm

Bug...Maybe you should turn up to a NYC game....to see the talent on offer there...

Hmmm what happened to if your good enough your old enough....those of us like you and me may not like it but as Smeg pointed out...the NRL have gone down this path where now the NYC is the pathway to first grade ahead of the State Cup competition....is it right or wrong time will tell.

How many State Cup games did Robbie Farah, Benji Marshall, Chris Lawrence, Bryce Gibbs play?....that was even before NYC exsisted....

Personally I think players like Davis, Pritchard, Akeripa, Rysko, Farlow etc should be given a shot..but then again if there is no way through because of the likes of Daniella and Brown and youngsters from the NYC.... well there are 15 other NRL clubs out there....Perhaps they should look elsewhere ...
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Post by Balmain Bug » Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:23 pm

Geo. wrote:Bug...Maybe you should turn up to a NYC game....to see the talent on offer there...

Hmmm what happened to if your good enough your old enough....those of us like you and me may not like it but as Smeg pointed out...the NRL have gone down this path where now the NYC is the pathway to first grade ahead of the State Cup competition....is it right or wrong time will tell.

How many State Cup games did Robbie Farah, Benji Marshall, Chris Lawrence, Bryce Gibbs play?....that was even before NYC exsisted....

Personally I think players like Davis, Pritchard, Akeripa, Rysko, Farlow etc should be given a shot..but then again if there is no way through because of the likes of Daniella and Brown and youngsters from the NYC.... well there are 15 other NRL clubs out there....Perhaps they should look elsewhere ...
Mullaney was in my NRL team that I wanted for this year.

All those guys except for Benji have played State Cup.
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Post by thommo » Thu 15 Apr, 2010 10:20 am

Balmain Bug wrote:
Mona Lolesi wrote:
Balmain Bug wrote: Mona Lolesi, I wish to officially declare, that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Rugby League in NSW.
Prove me wrong, hopefully it involves more hilarious nicknames for coaches.
Across the board, traditionally it is rare for a player from state cup to make the step up.
However, traditionally it is common for people on here to go on about players that are being robbed of their chance.
For example, Hanbury and Trimarchi...they didn't even get picked up by an NRL club or even a good ESL club.
In fact, most nrl players that are in state cup are there because they are dropped or are punished for a misdemeanour.
How this implies I know nothing about league in NSW is ridiculous.

We are 4 and 1 and you still want to complain.

Btw I am still wondering whether you could inform me when Lima will be arriving to the tigers?
Mouni Lolesi,
Did you hear Peter Mullholland on the Fox Sports commentary for BRET v the Melbourne Storm?

He compared State Cup to U20's. Blew your stupid thoughts of that competition out of the water and into another universe. The half time score was 4-0 and he said if it were an U20's game the score would have been a half time blow out. He said the State Cup was a great breading ground for NRL and steels players for the rigours of NRL. He said the U20's was well below the State Cup in standard etc.

Its not often I say this Mouni,

But you can well and truly Sit on it !!
I seem to recall Phil Gould on the roast saying the State Cup was an embarrassment to the game, and it is not the equivalent of what used to be Reserve Grade
But what does he know?

thommo

Post by thommo » Thu 15 Apr, 2010 10:41 am

Geo. wrote:Bug...Maybe you should turn up to a NYC game....to see the talent on offer there...

Hmmm what happened to if your good enough your old enough....those of us like you and me may not like it but as Smeg pointed out...the NRL have gone down this path where now the NYC is the pathway to first grade ahead of the State Cup competition....is it right or wrong time will tell.

How many State Cup games did Robbie Farah, Benji Marshall, Chris Lawrence, Bryce Gibbs play?....that was even before NYC exsisted....

Personally I think players like Davis, Pritchard, Akeripa, Rysko, Farlow etc should be given a shot..but then again if there is no way through because of the likes of Daniella and Brown and youngsters from the NYC.... well there are 15 other NRL clubs out there....Perhaps they should look elsewhere ...
i think the reason nrl clubs have gone down the NYC pathway is because they've invested more money into that. the nyc is actually aligned with clubs. back in the old days reserve grade would have been the natural pathway, but they got rid of that because they wanted to cut costs.
now the state cup is supposed to be the equivalent of reserve grade, but it isn't, because it is essentially a glorified metro cup (or jim beam cup, whatever it used to be called). as gus said on the roast, most of the decent players who would've played reserve grade are playing over in europe or have left the game.

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Post by Knuckles » Thu 15 Apr, 2010 12:22 pm

One of the rare times I agree with Phil Gould ...... State Cup is a very ordinary competition.

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Post by AndTheKungFoSing » Thu 15 Apr, 2010 1:14 pm

I have to agree that the state cup is an ordinary comp too. The poor quality of the NYC makes it looks a thousand times better than what it really is.
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