Ray Hadley & Co slam coach SHEENS strategies

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tiger4ever
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Re: Ray Hadley & Co slam coach SHEENS strategies

Post by tiger4ever » Mon 03 May, 2010 9:18 pm

cqtiger wrote:Someone used the word "muppets" for those that don't agree with the current coach argument. I certainly don't agree with everything Sheens does but I am sure that he consults his senior staff and senior players about issues. So I can assume that most things have their blessing as I know that Robbie has been very vocal with missing the last few years finals. Why isn't Farah insisting that Taumata be the halfback? or play Lazarus there for a full game?

Blame Sheens all you like but the last 3 weeks have been pathetic as far as the "muppets" dropping the football. They won't win many games at all even if Moltzen et al were playing. I was disgusted with the performance yesterday and it had nothing at all to do with the bench or players out of position.

Muppets!

Yeah i agree with you its the 1%s that killed us yesterday.I love how after a few losses its always sheens fault.Predictable!

Sooks on here fair dinkum.

Cant wait to see the back of fitzhenry.


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Post by stryker » Mon 03 May, 2010 9:27 pm

tiger4ever wrote:
cqtiger wrote:Someone used the word "muppets" for those that don't agree with the current coach argument. I certainly don't agree with everything Sheens does but I am sure that he consults his senior staff and senior players about issues. So I can assume that most things have their blessing as I know that Robbie has been very vocal with missing the last few years finals. Why isn't Farah insisting that Taumata be the halfback? or play Lazarus there for a full game?

Blame Sheens all you like but the last 3 weeks have been pathetic as far as the "muppets" dropping the football. They won't win many games at all even if Moltzen et al were playing. I was disgusted with the performance yesterday and it had nothing at all to do with the bench or players out of position.

Muppets!

Yeah i agree with you its the 1%s that killed us yesterday.I love how after a few losses its always sheens fault.Predictable!

Sooks on here fair dinkum.

Cant wait to see the back of fitzhenry.
He says with a decidedly "sooky" tone....

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Post by tiger4ever » Mon 03 May, 2010 9:42 pm

stryker wrote:
tiger4ever wrote:
cqtiger wrote:Someone used the word "muppets" for those that don't agree with the current coach argument. I certainly don't agree with everything Sheens does but I am sure that he consults his senior staff and senior players about issues. So I can assume that most things have their blessing as I know that Robbie has been very vocal with missing the last few years finals. Why isn't Farah insisting that Taumata be the halfback? or play Lazarus there for a full game?

Blame Sheens all you like but the last 3 weeks have been pathetic as far as the "muppets" dropping the football. They won't win many games at all even if Moltzen et al were playing. I was disgusted with the performance yesterday and it had nothing at all to do with the bench or players out of position.

Muppets!

Yeah i agree with you its the 1%s that killed us yesterday.I love how after a few losses its always sheens fault.Predictable!

Sooks on here fair dinkum.

Cant wait to see the back of fitzhenry.
He says with a decidedly "sooky" tone....

No wrong i dont come on here knocking every selection after a few losses like some.

I CAN READ ALL MY POST KNOWING FULL WELL IM NOT A HYPOCRIT

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Post by Tigerdave » Mon 03 May, 2010 10:59 pm

It's not just a few losses, it's been going on since Prince left, as soon as we lose a key player or 2 it's panic stations with some not so minor positional changes.

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Post by Tigersmurf » Mon 03 May, 2010 11:30 pm

I don't think we can say we tackled ourselves to a standstill due to the amount of drop ball! We defended for twice as long the two weeks prior. We had a lot more ball in this game but we couldn't do anything with it.

The reason appears to be second phase play - we don't have any! Fifita is our only passing forward. Galloway tries and looks like he is going to drop it every time he looks to pass. Look at Parra - no second phase and no wins. Then they start offloading and backing each other up and now they look like they have structure and consistency.

By offloading we could turn a set of six into a set of 10. We could also draw forwards and create space for Benji and whomever else plays half.

We have never had offloading forwards...Galea, Payne, Ellis, Heighnington, Halatau, Moors, Cayless....crap if it wasn't for Payten I would nearly have to go as far back as Mark Stimson.

Offloading and backing up would go a long way to getting us out of this rut, IMO. Anyone in the lower grades that can hit and spin guys???


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Post by magpie mania » Tue 04 May, 2010 1:38 am

Tigersmurf wrote:I don't think we can say we tackled ourselves to a standstill due to the amount of drop ball! We defended for twice as long the two weeks prior. We had a lot more ball in this game but we couldn't do anything with it.

The reason appears to be second phase play - we don't have any! Fifita is our only passing forward. Galloway tries and looks like he is going to drop it every time he looks to pass. Look at Parra - no second phase and no wins. Then they start offloading and backing each other up and now they look like they have structure and consistency.

By offloading we could turn a set of six into a set of 10. We could also draw forwards and create space for Benji and whomever else plays half.

We have never had offloading forwards...Galea, Payne, Ellis, Heighnington, Halatau, Moors, Cayless....crap if it wasn't for Payten I would nearly have to go as far back as Mark Stimson.

Offloading and backing up would go a long way to getting us out of this rut, IMO. Anyone in the lower grades that can hit and spin guys???
GOOD POST.I THINK GALLOWAY HAS OFF LOADED IN THE PAST REGULARLY BUT LATELY THERE SEEMS TO BE A DROP OFF ON OFFLOADS AS A TEAM THEY NEED TO REFOCUS ON THIS ASPECT ASAP.IF I SEE ELLIS STAND IN ANOTHER TACKLE WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT LIKE ON THE WEEKEND I WILL SCREAM. :brick: :brick:

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Post by sunshine coast tiger » Tue 04 May, 2010 6:10 am

alexaki wrote:Its my understanding our Assistant Coaches control the bench!
Maybe the changes on game day but I doubt they have the say in the make up of the bench in the first place. I am amazed Steve Folkes hasn't had a quiet word to Sheens about some of the useless players he has put on the bench this season.

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Post by Chadman's Ghost » Tue 04 May, 2010 8:48 am

hahahaha...oh, the knives are out now.


Funny- we were all talking about the Tigers finals hopes when they had Tim Moltzen playing halfback & giving some direction, and allowing Benji to play a bit more freely, and Farah at hooker...

And with Moltzen gone, the lack of direction becomes obvious, Benji is forced to try more stuff & now Farah is shifted to halfback because all the other options there are simply not ready.

And now it's Sheens' fault.

It's not the tactics or interchange. It's the lack of a foil for Benji at halfback that allows teams to focus solely on what Benji will do once the ball leaves Farah's hands at dummy half.

And no matter what tactics are employed- if the team is going to turn the ball over in crucial moments of the match, you ain't going to win.

Sheens has his faults, but to blame him solely for the drop-off since Moltzen went down is short sighted. The Tigers were playing great before that.

And before anyone pipes up with "It's been going on for years"- the Tigers of last season would have given up 30 points to that Roosters team. This Tigers team plays with committment. I'll take a team that puts in every week over what we were subjected to over the last couple of years. For mine, Sheens has done a pretty good job putting together this team this season. Getting Lui or Tuamata in at half would be the best fix for the Tigers right now.

Last thing- one reason I'm reluctant to get on the 'Sack Sheens' movement at the moment is this- his coaching staff & scouting staff have assembled an great bunch of young players in the Under 20's side- the future of Wests Tigers looks bright- and Sheens has played a massive role in that.

Of course- we could just sack him & bring in Ricky Stuart...that should fix the problem...

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Post by Tigerdave » Tue 04 May, 2010 10:37 am

Chadman's Ghost wrote: It's not the tactics or interchange. It's the lack of a foil for Benji at halfback that allows teams to focus solely on what Benji will do once the ball leaves Farah's hands at dummy half.
The interchange does play a part, but otherwise yes Benji needs a foil at the halfback spot
Chadman's Ghost wrote: And no matter what tactics are employed- if the team is going to turn the ball over in crucial moments of the match, you ain't going to win.
True as well, but when players are not only playing out of position, but there are positional changes happening on the field whilst the game is going on, the mistake rate is bound to go up as know one knows who is doing what.
Chadman's Ghost wrote: Sheens has his faults, but to blame him solely for the drop-off since Moltzen went down is short sighted. The Tigers were playing great before that.
Who else is there to blame for the constant team change then? By the looks of the constant changes over the last 2 games, he panics. He did the right thing by bringing up Lazarus against the Dogs, unfortunately we were on the rough end of some very bad ref decisions, the team had no ball and was very tired when we had it. Benji and Robbie trying to score of every play didn't help, they seemed to panic as well.

Then without giving Lazarus another shot at it and see what happens if we actually get a fair use of the ball, he shifts him to fullback, Ryan back to wing and Fitzy in the halves.....so we lose that...and the Panthers were certainly there for the taking, but the attack really wasn't up to scratch.

Then he goes back to the old routine of weakening one position to try to strengthen another...and we lose again and the attack is further hampered due to no cohesion, no direction, no structure.

You said it earlier, Benji needs a foil at half..... so why did Sheens effectively dump Lazarus after one game? from the man who gave us John Morris for 2 years.... He should have kept Lazarus in at the halfback spot and maybe, just maybe, some stability may have crept back into the side for the Panthers and Roosters game. The chopping and changing of players was always going to make that task a tad more difficult.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Tue 04 May, 2010 10:41 am

Chadman's Ghost wrote:And before anyone pipes up with "It's been going on for years"- the Tigers of last season would have given up 30 points to that Roosters team.
The Tigers of this season had given up 30 points to that same Roosters team, 44 in fact in round 2. The fact the Chooks took their foot off the pedal with 20 mins to go made the scoreline look more respectable.
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Post by MGB » Tue 04 May, 2010 10:47 am

Chadman's Ghost wrote:hahahaha...oh, the knives are out now.


Funny- we were all talking about the Tigers finals hopes when they had Tim Moltzen playing halfback & giving some direction, and allowing Benji to play a bit more freely, and Farah at hooker...

And with Moltzen gone, the lack of direction becomes obvious, Benji is forced to try more stuff & now Farah is shifted to halfback because all the other options there are simply not ready.

And now it's Sheens' fault.

It's not the tactics or interchange. It's the lack of a foil for Benji at halfback that allows teams to focus solely on what Benji will do once the ball leaves Farah's hands at dummy half.

And no matter what tactics are employed- if the team is going to turn the ball over in crucial moments of the match, you ain't going to win.

Sheens has his faults, but to blame him solely for the drop-off since Moltzen went down is short sighted. The Tigers were playing great before that.

And before anyone pipes up with "It's been going on for years"- the Tigers of last season would have given up 30 points to that Roosters team. This Tigers team plays with committment. I'll take a team that puts in every week over what we were subjected to over the last couple of years. For mine, Sheens has done a pretty good job putting together this team this season. Getting Lui or Tuamata in at half would be the best fix for the Tigers right now.

Last thing- one reason I'm reluctant to get on the 'Sack Sheens' movement at the moment is this- his coaching staff & scouting staff have assembled an great bunch of young players in the Under 20's side- the future of Wests Tigers looks bright- and Sheens has played a massive role in that.

Of course- we could just sack him & bring in Ricky Stuart...that should fix the problem...
Great post, The afterlife seems to be agreeing with you Chadman.

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Post by Tigerpete » Tue 04 May, 2010 11:50 am

Chadman's Ghost wrote:hahahaha...oh, the knives are out now.


Funny- we were all talking about the Tigers finals hopes when they had Tim Moltzen playing halfback & giving some direction, and allowing Benji to play a bit more freely, and Farah at hooker...

And with Moltzen gone, the lack of direction becomes obvious, Benji is forced to try more stuff & now Farah is shifted to halfback because all the other options there are simply not ready.

And now it's Sheens' fault.

It's not the tactics or interchange. It's the lack of a foil for Benji at halfback that allows teams to focus solely on what Benji will do once the ball leaves Farah's hands at dummy half.

And no matter what tactics are employed- if the team is going to turn the ball over in crucial moments of the match, you ain't going to win.

Sheens has his faults, but to blame him solely for the drop-off since Moltzen went down is short sighted. The Tigers were playing great before that.

And before anyone pipes up with "It's been going on for years"- the Tigers of last season would have given up 30 points to that Roosters team. This Tigers team plays with committment. I'll take a team that puts in every week over what we were subjected to over the last couple of years. For mine, Sheens has done a pretty good job putting together this team this season. Getting Lui or Tuamata in at half would be the best fix for the Tigers right now.

Last thing- one reason I'm reluctant to get on the 'Sack Sheens' movement at the moment is this- his coaching staff & scouting staff have assembled an great bunch of young players in the Under 20's side- the future of Wests Tigers looks bright- and Sheens has played a massive role in that.

Of course- we could just sack him & bring in Ricky Stuart...that should fix the problem...
100% right mate. Call it coincidence or not but from the moment Moltzen got injured we've struggled. I do agree that Lui or Taumata will fix the problem to some degree depending on their impact at 7. It's easy to blame Sheens just like Fitzhenry's the scape goat after a loss but the problem lies in the fact Marshall is the obvious and only real target.

I Still think Sheens made an error, albeit intentionally to play Farah at 7 because all he effectively did was make our attack even blunter than it already was. I don't understand why Farah was taken from hooker where he's effective , just so he could play as average halfback for the day. He would've done more for us at hooker. Having said all that though our attack just lacked a little in taking the right options on sunday. Those things can be corrected

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Post by smeghead » Tue 04 May, 2010 11:58 am

Sundays bench was inexcuseable.

It was a bad read on Tuesday but to see Moors warming up alongside Payten and getting my hopes up and than read the actual bench of A prop, a backrower, a winger and a hooker/half was very hard to take.

I know Payten goes into the prop rotation but how much more effective would we be with him remaining in the back row and having two props on the bench?
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Post by crouching_tiger » Tue 04 May, 2010 12:09 pm

Tigerpete wrote:
Chadman's Ghost wrote:hahahaha...oh, the knives are out now.


Funny- we were all talking about the Tigers finals hopes when they had Tim Moltzen playing halfback & giving some direction, and allowing Benji to play a bit more freely, and Farah at hooker...

And with Moltzen gone, the lack of direction becomes obvious, Benji is forced to try more stuff & now Farah is shifted to halfback because all the other options there are simply not ready.

And now it's Sheens' fault.

It's not the tactics or interchange. It's the lack of a foil for Benji at halfback that allows teams to focus solely on what Benji will do once the ball leaves Farah's hands at dummy half.

And no matter what tactics are employed- if the team is going to turn the ball over in crucial moments of the match, you ain't going to win.

Sheens has his faults, but to blame him solely for the drop-off since Moltzen went down is short sighted. The Tigers were playing great before that.

And before anyone pipes up with "It's been going on for years"- the Tigers of last season would have given up 30 points to that Roosters team. This Tigers team plays with committment. I'll take a team that puts in every week over what we were subjected to over the last couple of years. For mine, Sheens has done a pretty good job putting together this team this season. Getting Lui or Tuamata in at half would be the best fix for the Tigers right now.

Last thing- one reason I'm reluctant to get on the 'Sack Sheens' movement at the moment is this- his coaching staff & scouting staff have assembled an great bunch of young players in the Under 20's side- the future of Wests Tigers looks bright- and Sheens has played a massive role in that.

Of course- we could just sack him & bring in Ricky Stuart...that should fix the problem...
100% right mate. Call it coincidence or not but from the moment Moltzen got injured we've struggled. I do agree that Lui or Taumata will fix the problem to some degree depending on their impact at 7. It's easy to blame Sheens just like Fitzhenry's the scape goat after a loss but the problem lies in the fact Marshall is the obvious and only real target.

I Still think Sheens made an error, albeit intentionally to play Farah at 7 because all he effectively did was make our attack even blunter than it already was. I don't understand why Farah was taken from hooker where he's effective , just so he could play as average halfback for the day. He would've done more for us at hooker. Having said all that though our attack just lacked a little in taking the right options on sunday. Those things can be corrected
What i see is Marshall has too much power within the squad and at the club. Sheens persists by building the team around him and the future around him. This IMO is a massive mistake. Marshall is a fantastic player with freakish talents, but now he is a senior player at WT, he has too much iconic power to be relieved of this position.
The only thing i can suggest is to move Marshall out of the halves to stabilise the team as a whole. Take away some of his freedom to roam the field and utilise his vision much more as opposed to trying too hard too often.
Ask yourself a question as to WHY Marshall is STILL the first choice goalkicker and not another soul has been given the duties. Is it because Marshall is doing a suffice job for the past few years? i think not...
Even after external goalkicking coaching, Marshall has missed some sitters, yet Sheens still persists at the expense of the team as a whole and their supporters. Apparently the persistence is to give Marshall more confidence. Sorry but in this day and age, goalkicking is MORE important than ever for WT after missing the finals series for 4 consecutive seasons after winning a GF.
Sheens should make some serious HARD decisions and take charge of his team. I said this a few weeks ago...when players hold more power over the coach, it's time to pack it in.
Last edited by crouching_tiger on Tue 04 May, 2010 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
QUOTE WestsTigers:"Fitzhenry is a very experienced player and will assist in providing leadership to the younger players in the Wests Tigers squad"

QUOTE Tim Sheens:"We owe our fans an apology for that today"

QUOTE Stephen Humphreys:"it was important to secure Fifita for a longer period"

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Post by crouching_tiger » Tue 04 May, 2010 12:12 pm

smeghead wrote:Sundays bench was inexcuseable.

It was a bad read on Tuesday but to see Moors warming up alongside Payten and getting my hopes up and than read the actual bench of A prop, a backrower, a winger and a hooker/half was very hard to take.

I know Payten goes into the prop rotation but how much more effective would we be with him remaining in the back row and having two props on the bench?
Payten really had a blinder given it was his first game back considering his layoff. His size was truly prominent to inspiring his fellow forwards step up on the weekend. The WT forward pack were almost flawless.
QUOTE WestsTigers:"Fitzhenry is a very experienced player and will assist in providing leadership to the younger players in the Wests Tigers squad"

QUOTE Tim Sheens:"We owe our fans an apology for that today"

QUOTE Stephen Humphreys:"it was important to secure Fifita for a longer period"

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Post by simonthetiger » Tue 04 May, 2010 12:14 pm

Spot on from Cadmans ghost.
Exactly how I see it.

The team is putting in.Its just our execution thats lets us down.


My litttle whinge is about Farah at 7......we go way too sidewaysee when he is there.

He should never be moved from 9.

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Post by Spartan117 » Tue 04 May, 2010 12:34 pm

Chadman's Ghost wrote:hahahaha...oh, the knives are out now.

1 - Farah is shifted to halfback because all the other options there are simply not ready.

2 - if the team is going to turn the ball over in crucial moments of the match, you ain't going to win.

3 - And before anyone pipes up with "It's been going on for years"- the Tigers of last season would have given up 30 points to that Roosters team.

4 - Sheens has done a pretty good job putting together this team this season. Getting Lui or Tuamata in at half would be the best fix for the Tigers right now.

5 - Last thing- one reason I'm reluctant to get on the 'Sack Sheens' movement at the moment is this- his coaching staff & scouting staff have assembled an great bunch of young players in the Under 20's side- the future of Wests Tigers looks bright- and Sheens has played a massive role in that.

Of course- we could just sack him & bring in Ricky Stuart...that should fix the problem...
5 Great points - where you been ChadmanG ???

We could alos line up uther inexp coaches - remember the days of Pearce, Lamb, langmack...

Tim Sheens is a GREAT Coach.
UTT - Up The Tigers

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Post by hybrid_tiger » Tue 04 May, 2010 1:01 pm

Spartan117 wrote:
Chadman's Ghost wrote:hahahaha...oh, the knives are out now.

1 - Farah is shifted to halfback because all the other options there are simply not ready.

2 - if the team is going to turn the ball over in crucial moments of the match, you ain't going to win.

3 - And before anyone pipes up with "It's been going on for years"- the Tigers of last season would have given up 30 points to that Roosters team.

4 - Sheens has done a pretty good job putting together this team this season. Getting Lui or Tuamata in at half would be the best fix for the Tigers right now.

5 - Last thing- one reason I'm reluctant to get on the 'Sack Sheens' movement at the moment is this- his coaching staff & scouting staff have assembled an great bunch of young players in the Under 20's side- the future of Wests Tigers looks bright- and Sheens has played a massive role in that.

Of course- we could just sack him & bring in Ricky Stuart...that should fix the problem...
5 Great points - where you been ChadmanG ???

We could alos line up uther inexp coaches - remember the days of Pearce, Lamb, langmack...

Tim Sheens is a GREAT Coach.
You guys make me laugh, you've been telling us all the same thing for five years, guess what, nothing has changed. A "great" coach would get his teams to the finals more than once in 13 years. Like Wayne Bennett.

The problem with Sheens is that he is arrogant and pig headed and will not change, he repeats the same mistakes over and over again. He has one way and its his way or the highway and even when it fails over and over again he still tries it, again and again, for the same results.

We played Farah at half in 2007. In addition to costing Robbie a Dally M, it didn't work. Here we are 3 years later and Sheens does the same thing again, for the same result. Why? Injuries are no excuse - we had Nathan Waters available, yet at the end of the game this week we had a halfback coming on to play hooker (Waters) and our first choice hooker playing halfback (Farah). Why? Where is the logic? We also used 16 players in 30 degree heat, and 15 players for over 60 minutes out there. Why? Where is the logic?

I've been calling for Sheens' head since the end of 2007 after that loss against Newcastle and absolutely nothing I've seen since has changed my mind. I thought when Lazarus was named as Moltzen's replacement that Sheens had finally learnt from some of his past mistakes and was now finally going to select halfbacks to play halfbacks, and play everyone in their correct positions. I was overjoyed, finally, I screamed. Well, it only took two games for that to turn to s***.

Calling for his head is also not a knee jerk reaction to yesterday’s loss, or any other loss this year. This is a reaction to four seasons of continued failure by Sheens to take the side to a top 8 finals series in a 16 team competition. The 2005 premiership should not be a justification for ensuing seasons of failure and used to uphold his continued employment.

I am not preaching a change of coach for changes sake. I am preaching it because we have a coach whose record is ordinary at best in a decade and a half, a coach who doesn’t learn from (and in fact, repeats) his mistakes, a man who won’t have his records in the modern era credentialed by an all too easily appeased media, and whose message(s) to the players are obviously falling on deaf ears.

The facts are a highly talented group of players have not responded to his coaching in a decade and a half, apart from 16 glorious weeks at the back end of 2005. We need a fresh start, a clean slate. It's not working, and it will continue to not work as long as we keep doing the same things that have failed for the past four years (now five).

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