Lui goes off at 22-4.

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Re: Lui goes off at 22-4.

Post by cktiger » Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:39 pm

2041 wrote:
Moh wrote:
baku wrote:Give the guy a break. He's a young player playing in a key position. Set up a beauitful first try. Still out number one half back by a mile. Miller aint ready, Moltzen has potential, but Lui is the better half.
...
If he gets isolated one-on-one by front rowers, or Manu, etc, what do you expect, at least he has a go. Prince wouldn't have missed those tackes too. Not many half backs would make those tackles.
...
It's good coaching, or bad on our part, to isolate him one-on-one. Look at soward, or langer. Alfie Langer was one of the best half backs ever, but suspect in defence, food for thought.
Great post.

I watched Miller in the U20s earlier, I'm a big fan but he's nowhere near ready.

Moltzen is slowly gaining confidence though, could be a possibility if Lui has a couple more shockers/gets injured.
I just said a similar thing in another thread - maybe it was Miller's worst game of the season but if he played in first grade like he did for the 20s on Sunday he would not be an improvement on anyone.

Some of Lui's missed tackles have been embarrassing but I can't help but feel the problem defensively is bigger than him. Look at the first try Newcastle scored last week: can you name another team in the NRL that would let an undersized half get singled out in line defence like that? There are plenty of weak defending halves in the comp including some damn good players - Lockyer and Soward for instance - but a good defending team gives them a bodyguard and makes it very difficult for them to be isolated. I'm not saying we ought to take any lessons from Souths defensively but they basically seem to defend with 12 and let Sandow throw in an occasional shoulder when he can.

Straight up, Lui's defence has been poor of late. But look at the holes the Warriors were punching up the middle for the first hour yesterday - either by offloading, running tight support lines for short passes or just in hit ups. That's not all down to a half-back who isn't tackling his weight. Frankly I think there are some much bigger men who need to take a look at themselves (and, without singling out just one name, I start to have an idea why the club thinks Fifita isn't irreplaceable).
There are only two guys in the backline bigger than Lui - they are Brown and Ayshford (and not by much)
In the forwards Farah and Fulton are smaller and Heighington is only about 2 kilos heavier.
If they all tackled like Lui we would be sitting on the bottom of the ladder.
And if we need to assign someone to protect him then who protects all the other guys who tackle above their weight?
It's FIRST grade - he should be able to tackle!


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Post by 2041 » Wed 15 Jun, 2011 7:49 am

cktiger wrote:
2041 wrote:
Moh wrote:
baku wrote:Give the guy a break. He's a young player playing in a key position. Set up a beauitful first try. Still out number one half back by a mile. Miller aint ready, Moltzen has potential, but Lui is the better half.
...
If he gets isolated one-on-one by front rowers, or Manu, etc, what do you expect, at least he has a go. Prince wouldn't have missed those tackes too. Not many half backs would make those tackles.
...
It's good coaching, or bad on our part, to isolate him one-on-one. Look at soward, or langer. Alfie Langer was one of the best half backs ever, but suspect in defence, food for thought.
Great post.

I watched Miller in the U20s earlier, I'm a big fan but he's nowhere near ready.

Moltzen is slowly gaining confidence though, could be a possibility if Lui has a couple more shockers/gets injured.
I just said a similar thing in another thread - maybe it was Miller's worst game of the season but if he played in first grade like he did for the 20s on Sunday he would not be an improvement on anyone.

Some of Lui's missed tackles have been embarrassing but I can't help but feel the problem defensively is bigger than him. Look at the first try Newcastle scored last week: can you name another team in the NRL that would let an undersized half get singled out in line defence like that? There are plenty of weak defending halves in the comp including some damn good players - Lockyer and Soward for instance - but a good defending team gives them a bodyguard and makes it very difficult for them to be isolated. I'm not saying we ought to take any lessons from Souths defensively but they basically seem to defend with 12 and let Sandow throw in an occasional shoulder when he can.

Straight up, Lui's defence has been poor of late. But look at the holes the Warriors were punching up the middle for the first hour yesterday - either by offloading, running tight support lines for short passes or just in hit ups. That's not all down to a half-back who isn't tackling his weight. Frankly I think there are some much bigger men who need to take a look at themselves (and, without singling out just one name, I start to have an idea why the club thinks Fifita isn't irreplaceable).
There are only two guys in the backline bigger than Lui - they are Brown and Ayshford (and not by much)
In the forwards Farah and Fulton are smaller and Heighington is only about 2 kilos heavier.
If they all tackled like Lui we would be sitting on the bottom of the ladder.
And if we need to assign someone to protect him then who protects all the other guys who tackle above their weight?
It's FIRST grade - he should be able to tackle!
Come on, you know it's not as simple as that. Lui defends round the ruck where he gets run at by forwards. On Sunday, Ryan got absolutely flattened by Vatuvei on all but one occasion, because Vatuvei's about 30kg heavier and was able to run one on one at Ryan. We're seeing the same thing happening with Lui - too often he ends up on his own against much bigger men, in situations where he is simply not always going to be able to make a tackle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lui is a good defender or that there isn't significant room for improvement given his size and speed. The first try on Sunday came from a Lui missed tackle that he had every right to make (though, again, one of the forwards fell off the same tackle - couldn't see which one from where I was sitting). What I am saying is that given we know Lui's defensive weakness at this stage in his development he should be getting more protection in the line. It's embarrassing how often teams get to run at him one on one - look at the first Newcastle try last week. Do you think the Dragons would let Soward get exposed in the same way, or Brisbane with Lockyer? Of course not. There isn't a big man in the comp who wouldn't lick his lips at the prospect of running at Soward, one on one, ten metres out from the line - but you never see it happen because the Dragons know how to protect him.

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Post by cktiger » Wed 15 Jun, 2011 4:28 pm

You're missing the point 2041 - he;s not a small guy - just a bad defender.
He would weigh close to 10 kgs more than Soward.
Liam Fulton weighs about 7 kgs less than him.
Sure, put a forward near him but , really , the guy is ripping fit and around 95 kgs he should be able to do more than stick his arm out.

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Post by 2041 » Wed 15 Jun, 2011 6:19 pm

cktiger wrote:You're missing the point 2041 - he;s not a small guy - just a bad defender.
He would weigh close to 10 kgs more than Soward.
Liam Fulton weighs about 7 kgs less than him.
Sure, put a forward near him but , really , the guy is ripping fit and around 95 kgs he should be able to do more than stick his arm out.
I get the point, and I agree with it: he's big enough that he could be a better defender, and over the course of his career I'd want him to become a better defender. The point I'm making is that at this stage in his career he clearly isn't a good defender - and the team isn't doing enough to stop that costing us points. Meanwhile, other teams are able to cover up defensive weaknesses. Put it this way: if the Tigers had Sandow, say, would we expect him to cover his own place in the line against big men without adequate backup? Lui's bigger but at this stage in his development he clearly needs help. Maybe some of that is attitude but that's not really for me to guess.

If the defensive problem is unsolvable then we have to drop Lui (presumably for Moltzen, who isn't exactly Nathan Hindmarsh himself). Of course lots of people want to see that happen anyway, but Sheens clearly believes Lui is the best attacking option and my argument is that it is self-defeating to deny the best attacker to the team when it appears to be possible to cover up individual defensive weaknesses (because other teams are capable of it, including the best defenders in the comp).

Basically there are three options:
1) Let Lui keep taking his lumps and costing us points.
2) Get Lui some proper protection in the line.
3) Pick a half back who is (in the coach's view) a less good attacker.

I'd argue that the second is the best available - which doesn't mean the club and Lui shouldn't work damn hard on improving his own contributions defensively.

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