Finals series 2017 *Spoilers

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Marshall_magic
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Re: Finals series 2017 *Spoilers

Unread post by Marshall_magic » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 10:16 pm

I think part of the problem with the refereeing is when a poor decision is made Gus and co in the box carry on like pork chops for the next 10 minutes about it, rather than getting on with the game. Part of the reason I can't listen to channel 9 anymore.


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Unread post by formerguest » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 12:11 am

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 12 Sep, 2017 4:31 pm
Russell wrote:
Tue 12 Sep, 2017 3:42 pm
It has been made over complicated - It is a simple game with simple rules.

It is not difficult - the players, play to the rules. If you don't, you get penalised.

Obviously touchies have been taken out of forward pass / offside decisions. They are there, why not use them.

Fix the simple things first and that will overcome a multitude of problems. Simple things like markers being square (they do not touch/push the player playing the ball), The player playing the ball does not walk forward before playing the ball, nor does he, in essence take the marker out of play.

The thing is - when these things happen they need to be policed until the pea falls out of the refs whistle - they will soon get the message (Oh! if I do that, I'll 100% get penalised - Duh!).

Oh! you could go on for hours couldn't you.
But Russell it's not a simple game, why do people keep saying this?

Yes you need to move the ball to your try line and do it more than the opposition. But the rules about how that can be accomplished, well not so straight forward. Perhaps it's natural to a life-long follower of the game like yourself, but try explaining the rules in detail to a kid or someone who has only ever followed soccer or basketball! Try having someone who has barely watched a game sit through one of those finals last weekend and ask you to explain what is going on.

Rugby league is complicated and nuanced. And as soon as you set a strategy or rule, every team is hell-bent on bending, stretching or circumventing that strategy or rule, such is the nature of the game.

The current edition of the international laws (Feb 2017), with notes and NRL interpretations runs at 68 pages and 19 sections (https://playnrl.com/media/2363/arl-rule ... 171219.pdf.

So you can penalise the arse out of every match for every stupid rule that exists, large or small, and yes maybe the players would get the drift. But as soon as you relax your guard, they are going to start pushing the boundaries again, so you will be forced to police the game with an iron fist FOREVER.

You want a simple game, go play snakes and ladders, or tic-tac-toe.

My biggest problem with the lack of scrutiny on a basic part of the game that is abused in most attacking plays by forwards and a fair amount by the others, playing the ball with your foot. The opposition haven't been allowed to strike at it for many moons, so there is no excuse and a rule made an absolute mockery of when the few that stuff up an actual attempt are the poor ones penalised.

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Unread post by Russell » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 9:13 am

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 12 Sep, 2017 4:31 pm
Russell wrote:
Tue 12 Sep, 2017 3:42 pm
It has been made over complicated - It is a simple game with simple rules.

It is not difficult - the players, play to the rules. If you don't, you get penalised.

Obviously touchies have been taken out of forward pass / offside decisions. They are there, why not use them.

Fix the simple things first and that will overcome a multitude of problems. Simple things like markers being square (they do not touch/push the player playing the ball), The player playing the ball does not walk forward before playing the ball, nor does he, in essence take the marker out of play.

The thing is - when these things happen they need to be policed until the pea falls out of the refs whistle - they will soon get the message (Oh! if I do that, I'll 100% get penalised - Duh!).

Oh! you could go on for hours couldn't you.
But Russell it's not a simple game, why do people keep saying this?

Yes you need to move the ball to your try line and do it more than the opposition. But the rules about how that can be accomplished, well not so straight forward. Perhaps it's natural to a life-long follower of the game like yourself, but try explaining the rules in detail to a kid or someone who has only ever followed soccer or basketball! Try having someone who has barely watched a game sit through one of those finals last weekend and ask you to explain what is going on.

Rugby league is complicated and nuanced. And as soon as you set a strategy or rule, every team is hell-bent on bending, stretching or circumventing that strategy or rule, such is the nature of the game.

The current edition of the international laws (Feb 2017), with notes and NRL interpretations runs at 68 pages and 19 sections (https://playnrl.com/media/2363/arl-rule ... 171219.pdf.

So you can penalise the arse out of every match for every stupid rule that exists, large or small, and yes maybe the players would get the drift. But as soon as you relax your guard, they are going to start pushing the boundaries again, so you will be forced to police the game with an iron fist FOREVER.

You want a simple game, go play snakes and ladders, or tic-tac-toe.
It was simple, and it can be simple again. Set the rules and adhere to the rules or you are penalised.

It has become complicated because custodians of the game have made it that way. Example:

It is not a forward pass because it went backwards out of his hands (sure it floated forward by four metres but that doesn't matter). The rule WAS - if the ball goes in front of you ... it is a forward pass, end of story.
Changing the rule opens up grey areas and interpretations by different individuals. Hence inconsistency.

Most of the inconsistency in our game now comes from these new rule interpretations which is making the game a laughing stock and what most supporters are complaining about.

It was a simple game - pretty much for simple/uncomplicated blue collar workers. Since the formation of the NRL it has been made a complicated game - you almost need an academic degree to work out the rules and interpretations. What the NRL need to do is, give our game back and stop the rot.

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Unread post by jirskyr » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 11:02 am

formerguest wrote:
Wed 13 Sep, 2017 12:11 am
My biggest problem with the lack of scrutiny on a basic part of the game that is abused in most attacking plays by forwards and a fair amount by the others, playing the ball with your foot. The opposition haven't been allowed to strike at it for many moons, so there is no excuse and a rule made an absolute mockery of when the few that stuff up an actual attempt are the poor ones penalised.
They changed the rule a few years ago to be more lenient, so there is less scope for penalties than there used to be. Now there only has to be a genuine attempt to play with the foot rather than a 100% forceful rollback.

It's funny what gets people up in arms, I don't see much of a problem with the current PTB rule. Players who do anything wonky like out to the side or fail to actually roll it back (just stepping on it) are called for a knock on. In fact I feel the refs are pretty strict that any fumble or non-backwards motion is called as a knock-on, particularly with a pocket ref watching from a few metres away.

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Unread post by jirskyr » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 11:21 am

Russell wrote:
Wed 13 Sep, 2017 9:13 am
It was simple, and it can be simple again. Set the rules and adhere to the rules or you are penalised.

It has become complicated because custodians of the game have made it that way. Example:

It is not a forward pass because it went backwards out of his hands (sure it floated forward by four metres but that doesn't matter). The rule WAS - if the ball goes in front of you ... it is a forward pass, end of story.
Changing the rule opens up grey areas and interpretations by different individuals. Hence inconsistency.

Most of the inconsistency in our game now comes from these new rule interpretations which is making the game a laughing stock and what most supporters are complaining about.

It was a simple game - pretty much for simple/uncomplicated blue collar workers. Since the formation of the NRL it has been made a complicated game - you almost need an academic degree to work out the rules and interpretations. What the NRL need to do is, give our game back and stop the rot.
Well this is the part where we have to agree to disagree.

I work in an industry where it is my job to set rules, policies, protocols and ensure they are followed to the letter. I can tell you from 20 years experience that no matter how hard you try, no matter how clear you try to be, a significant number of people will continue to misunderstand, forget or, at worse, intentionally ignore a policy. It's just human nature, there is no perfect system of policing whether it be sport, the law - always interpretations.

League is not a simple game. Maybe in your head it is, but when you write it down on paper it becomes fairly complicated. As I already noted, there are 60+ pages of rules - rules for knock ones, passes, high tackles, tripping, stripping, wrestling, play the balls, touchlines, tries, goals, shepherding, in-play kicking, offsides, in-goal infringements, concussions, blood bin, sin bin, interchange, penalty options, scrums, corner posts, grounding, kick defence, obstructions... etc. etc. If you think that is simple then gee whiz you have a superior intellect than I do. And try explaining our simple sport in 5 minutes to a new person, such that they understand the sport completely in that 5 minutes.

Rugby league is a simplification of what is a more technical sport, but it's still fairly complicated as sports go. And the better teams get at testing the rules, the more professional they become, the thinner the line becomes between legal and illegal, and at some point a human needs to make a decision. This will always result in disagreements, from 1908 to 2017 and beyond, it will never stop until the game is played by and refereed by robots.

And whilst I agree the custodians have introduced some grey areas into the game, they've more or less been forced to do it due to the way teams play, or the changes in technology. You never used to have to worry about crusher tackles, until they were invented. Nor did anyone worry about concussions until it became evident of the career-long risk to players. Obstructions were rarely a problem because teams didn't know how to run complicated attacking structures with blockers.

In fact you show me anything in the whole wide world that can be policed today just the way it was in 1908 or even 1980, show me anything in the world that has become more simple, more straightforward than it used to be.

It mostly boils down to the level of video coverage in the modern game. You can't have both a system where you make everything on-field black and white, but then allow the coverage to show 10 different angles in slow-motion. The two aspects need to meet somewhere in the middle, and the policy makers are trying as best they can to use the technology whilst not being a slave to the technology. Anyone who is a policy-maker will have some understanding of what that means and how complicated it truly is.

Think of all the non-tries and errors that have been correctly picked up by the video ref. People only seem to keep a tally of the negative issues, the calls that they feel were incorrect. But what about all the apparent tries that were shown to be not so - feet on the line, dropped balls etc. We had at least a dozen of those just last weekend, e.g. Latrell Mitchell dropping the ball over the line when he appeared to have scored - correct calls using the available technology.

Your example of a forward pass - I am not aware of the rule ever having changed??? Nor the interpretation having changed either, never heard of that. The problem with forward passes is physics - someone posted a really good youtube video on here a few months back and I suggest you go looking for it, talking about apparent forward motion when passing. Without giving a physics lesson, any player at speed will impart that speed on the football, such that a pass in a backwards motion technically does move forward at the speed the player was travelling (conservation of momentum). So long as the runner continues his momentum, to the eye it looks fine. But if he gets hit in a tackle, his momentum stops dead whilst the ball continues to move with the imparted momentum. Depending on where you are standing this may look like a forward pass, though the relative movement of the ball was not forward.

The physics of forwards passes has obviously never changed, so it will always be a grey area subject to the movements of players and the relative position of the referee. Part of the reason why video refs don't rule on forward passes, because it's not currently possible to make that call if you are not physically on the field.


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Unread post by Russell » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 4:39 pm

If you are trying to blind me with science jirskyr - you succeeded.

You are most probably right in a lot of what you say.

I still say it is simple, I'm not talking about new rules like crusher, wrestling etc. that is another kettle of fish. I am talking about simple basics of the game - that is how the game was run - I have been following for 67 years and it has now got to the stage of being ridiculous. Lets not get into physics - there were simple rules that even most referees could adjudicate on without getting it wrong.

Pass the ball behind you or it is a forward pass - simple.

Run behind your own player it is a shepherd - simple

etc. etc. Break the rule you are penalised... there are no grey areas which cause the problem.

Shows how crazy this is if you have to bring the laws of Physics into the rules of a game of football.

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Unread post by Tiger Steve » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 4:56 pm

Marshall_magic wrote:
Tue 12 Sep, 2017 10:16 pm
I think part of the problem with the refereeing is when a poor decision is made Gus and co in the box carry on like pork chops for the next 10 minutes about it, rather than getting on with the game. Part of the reason I can't listen to channel 9 anymore.
This is so true. I agree the standard of refereeing is sub par. I think refs have lost the ability and confidence to make quick accurate calls - why? Because they have little confidence - why? Because everyone in the media whips supporters into a frenzy by overanalysing and continually repeating every error made

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Unread post by Tigerdon » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 6:39 am

Nathan Cleary hails dad Ivan's 'awesome' Wests Tigers signing as Penrith Panthers plot Brisbane Broncos downfaall

Adam Pengilly

SMH

Nathan Cleary has seen the video highlights. That flick pass. The step. The acceleration. And he knows what his dad Ivan, the Wests Tigers coach, is getting. But to send Benji packing from his Broncos fling? He wouldn't mind doing that, either.

"Even the other day I was just watching his highlights video and he's just unreal," Panthers halfback Cleary jnr said.

"I don't think I can go past that flick pass in the grand final. I think everyone remembers that. Just whenever Benji is mentioned I always think back to that moment. It will be a great test for us and I'm looking forward to it."

Cleary remembers when his dad told him Marshall was returning to the Tigers in 2018 to finish his career. He couldn't hide his delight. The best sporting stories always end where it all began.

Cleary just hopes Marshall's Tigers chapter starts sooner than he hoped, plotting the downfall of Benji's Brisbane in a do-or-die semi-final at Suncorp Stadium on Friday night.

"I thought it was pretty awesome when he told me was coming back to the Tigers," Cleary said. "He can play that mentoring role as well and I think it's awesome for the club.

"I think he'll be on his A-game. He's played finals before, he's won a comp and we definitely need to watch out for him. I reckon he'll be in for a massive game."

Thirteen years his junior, Cleary is perhaps the antithesis of Marshall. Cool and calm, the other rarely calculated and usually off the cuff.

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Big battle: Nathan Cleary is primed for the game against Brisbane at Suncorp Stadium.
Big battle: Nathan Cleary is primed for the game against Brisbane at Suncorp Stadium. Photo: AAP
Which makes the battle between the nominated starting No.7s all the more intriguing, one who has come to grips with how to own an NRL side at just 19 years of age and the other squeezing every last ounce out of his body at 32.

Marshall, of course, is not guaranteed a starting berth given Brisbane skipper Darius Boyd (hamstring) is edging towards a return that would prompt a reshuffle from Wayne Bennett.

"I do [expect Boyd to play]," Panthers lock Trent Merrin said. "It's a massive game. He's a professional and the skipper of that team. He'll be putting his body on the line to get himself out there.

"But who knows. Everyone plays games at this [time of year]. We're preparing as if he's playing."

But regardless of whether Benji is standing on the other side of the halfway line or not, Cleary knows the task facing the Panthers.

He's twice been to Suncorp Stadium – winning last year and cursing a loss this year, the fifth in a row for Penrith at the low point of their season – and knows what to expect.

Perhaps this will be a precursor for a hatful of State of Origins in front of a packed house of parochial Queenslanders.

"It's not unchartered territory," Cleary said. "I've never played there in a semi-final and I think it will be 10 times the atmosphere when I played there last.

"I don't know if you can really expect anything [at Suncorp Stadium], it defies all expectations. It's absolutely crazy and a great atmosphere. It's a bit daunting, but I really like playing up there.

"We've still got a lot of young guys, but the deeper we go into the finals the more experience we'll gain and that's all valuable."

Captain Matt Moylan popped his head into the Panthers' lodgings before last week's drama-charged finals win over the Sea Eagles, offering a word of advice to Cleary and five-eighth Tyrone May.

He might still be on the sidelines as he addresses mental health concerns, but his advice for the Panthers' key playmakers has been invaluable when they need it.

"I haven't really seen him the last couple of weeks – I think he's been just focusing on trying to get his health right, which is totally understandable – and we're right behind him," Cleary said. "It was good to see him there on the weekend in the sheds.

"He was around the rooms and giving us a lot of tips individually. I think myself, Tyrone and Dylan [Edwards] really appreciate that coming from someone like Moysa. It really lifted the spirits of the boys. It was good to see him."
Ivan "Billy Beane from Moneyball" Cleary!
It's the Ivan of the tiger, It's the thrill of the fight...

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Unread post by wt00 » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 1:26 pm

Boyd ruled out
The star of the team is the team.

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Unread post by colmcd » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 2:05 pm

wt00 wrote:
Thu 14 Sep, 2017 1:26 pm
Boyd ruled out
There go the Chooks. Or maybe I just hate them too much.

Can anyone explain to me why it is 3 vs 7 and 4 vs 8?

Is that because Cronulla lost to Cowboys so it would be:
3 vs 7 and 4 vs 5?

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Unread post by Fade To Black » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 6:35 pm

Darius Boyd ruled out not Boyd Cordner mate.

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Unread post by wt00 » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 6:43 pm

colmcd wrote:
Thu 14 Sep, 2017 2:05 pm
wt00 wrote:
Thu 14 Sep, 2017 1:26 pm
Boyd ruled out
There go the Chooks. Or maybe I just hate them too much.

Can anyone explain to me why it is 3 vs 7 and 4 vs 8?

Is that because Cronulla lost to Cowboys so it would be:
3 vs 7 and 4 vs 5?
Darius Boyd not Cordner.
The star of the team is the team.

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Unread post by Marshall_magic » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 8:15 pm

colmcd wrote:
Thu 14 Sep, 2017 2:05 pm
wt00 wrote:
Thu 14 Sep, 2017 1:26 pm
Boyd ruled out
There go the Chooks. Or maybe I just hate them too much.

Can anyone explain to me why it is 3 vs 7 and 4 vs 8?

Is that because Cronulla lost to Cowboys so it would be:
3 vs 7 and 4 vs 5?
Winner of 5 v 8 plays the loser of 1 v 4 and the winner of 6 v 7 plays the loser of 2 v 3, rather than going on rankings (which was a big complaint of the old system).

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Unread post by innsaneink » Fri 15 Sep, 2017 4:54 pm

Are we are to access Telstra Live Pass here in SE Asia?

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Unread post by Geo. » Fri 15 Sep, 2017 5:06 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Fri 15 Sep, 2017 4:54 pm
Are we are to access Telstra Live Pass here in SE Asia?
You should be able to access the 'Live Pass' Overseas but would incur International Roaming charges I would think...

If not Setanta Sports has the broadcast rights in the Region...

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Geo nailed it...

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Unread post by WswWt » Fri 15 Sep, 2017 8:23 pm

Bro v pan game. I know it's in the spirit of the game to stop it.. but gotta feel for panthers how they couldn't score off that incident?

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Unread post by voice of reason » Fri 15 Sep, 2017 8:30 pm

Tough call but that's one of the worst collisions I've seen - correct decision to pull it up.
Suffering supporter since 1967

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Unread post by WswWt » Fri 15 Sep, 2017 8:32 pm

Don't understand why they had to... let the play go on and let Penrith put the ball on the goal line. 2 refs and an abundance of trainers on the field.. should be classed as just a normal knock on.

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