Salary Cap

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Tiger Watto
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Re: Salary Cap

Unread post by Tiger Watto » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 7:04 am

Chicken Faced Killa wrote:
Tue 10 Oct, 2017 8:31 pm
bathursttiger wrote:
Tue 10 Oct, 2017 8:02 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Mon 09 Oct, 2017 3:54 pm
$ = Corruption

Until they reformat the Salary Cap so it is not based on $'s, clubs will rort the cap.
I've been advocating this for years with my friends.
A similar system to Supercoach, where players are rated on their level and all teams have the same skill/experience level.
Eg: Australian player worth 50 points
SOS player worth x points
200 NRL game player worth x points etc.
The problem with this system is what happens when you sign players for 3 and 4 years and they make SOS or the Australian team so you are over the cap through developing players.

How long is a player worth the SOS or Australian team points? If a player plays one game are they worth those points for their entire careers.

No matter what system you use there are going to be problems.
While there will be many flaws in any system initially, I feel it could be a smarter system and one which the players can earn whatever they want eliminating the TPA problem the administration has no choice in allowing.

On the point you made, thats an easy solution. While each player is graded annually, their points allocation at there present club remains the amount they were 'signed for' for the term of the contract. The only exemption clubs can apply for is if the player is graded down over 2 consecutive years?

The initial value of a player under the age of 16 is Zero. This allows clubs to develop juniors without threat of losing them. If they stay at there junior club from the age of 16 until retirement, they will always be 'Zero' to the developing club, but worth 'X' to any club choosing to buy that player.

I'm sure there will be flaws/alternatives to both scenarios above, but its a system we should be looking at.
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Unread post by supercoach » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 7:19 am

Tiger Watto wrote:
Mon 09 Oct, 2017 3:54 pm
$ = Corruption

Until they reformat the Salary Cap so it is not based on $'s, clubs will rort the cap.
Your right.... As I said we need a system in place where clubs can pay players what ever they want, but all players are ranked by a independent body and given value of X amount of points and each club can only have a set number of points to fit there 30 contracted players into.

Of course the trick would be getting a fair and unbiased ranking system

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Unread post by Chicken Faced Killa » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 2:57 pm

Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 7:04 am
Chicken Faced Killa wrote:
Tue 10 Oct, 2017 8:31 pm
bathursttiger wrote:
Tue 10 Oct, 2017 8:02 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Mon 09 Oct, 2017 3:54 pm
$ = Corruption

Until they reformat the Salary Cap so it is not based on $'s, clubs will rort the cap.
I've been advocating this for years with my friends.
A similar system to Supercoach, where players are rated on their level and all teams have the same skill/experience level.
Eg: Australian player worth 50 points
SOS player worth x points
200 NRL game player worth x points etc.
The problem with this system is what happens when you sign players for 3 and 4 years and they make SOS or the Australian team so you are over the cap through developing players.

How long is a player worth the SOS or Australian team points? If a player plays one game are they worth those points for their entire careers.

No matter what system you use there are going to be problems.
While there will be many flaws in any system initially, I feel it could be a smarter system and one which the players can earn whatever they want eliminating the TPA problem the administration has no choice in allowing.

On the point you made, thats an easy solution. While each player is graded annually, their points allocation at there present club remains the amount they were 'signed for' for the term of the contract. The only exemption clubs can apply for is if the player is graded down over 2 consecutive years?

The initial value of a player under the age of 16 is Zero. This allows clubs to develop juniors without threat of losing them. If they stay at there junior club from the age of 16 until retirement, they will always be 'Zero' to the developing club, but worth 'X' to any club choosing to buy that player.

I'm sure there will be flaws/alternatives to both scenarios above, but its a system we should be looking at.
I could see a points system working but it would have to be carefully balanced.

I agree having discounts for junior development is important but we don't want clubs throwing big money at young kids just to get them on the books for the future.

I would also be concerned about having players valued on the number of games they have played. For example a 300 game John Morris is not worth as much as a 300 game Luke Lewis. I would hate to see a situation where players reach a certain number of games and clubs don't want them any more due to the points value of the number of games they have played.

I also feel that a points system won't eliminate certain clubs being more appealing for TPAs and those clubs may just get even stronger.

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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm

In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
It's not cruelty if you inject enough amphetamines...

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Unread post by Tiger Watto » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
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Unread post by Geo. » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:05 pm

Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
How much would a James Tedesco be worth to the Roosters compared to the Newcastle Knights in variable loadings...?
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2. The Star of the Team is the Team
3. Be the player your teammates want to play with..

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Unread post by Tiger Watto » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm

Geo. wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:05 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
How much would a James Tedesco be worth to the Roosters compared to the Newcastle Knights in variable loadings...?
nothing... players should be graded individually
"Did someone buy you the internet hero play book for Christmas and you've only just started reading it?" - Nelson 21/04/2017

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Geo.
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Unread post by Geo. » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 6:41 pm

Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm
Geo. wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:05 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
How much would a James Tedesco be worth to the Roosters compared to the Newcastle Knights in variable loadings...?
nothing... players should be graded individually
If that was the case and you are advocating Clubs can pay $$$ to whatever amount they want and a players points value is the same whichever Club they play for.. wouldn't that just allow the richer Clubs buy whoever they want...?!?...

Would a player or Club then be able to dispute their nominated points value..?
Ivan's Laws

1. You are either on the Bus or you are off..
2. The Star of the Team is the Team
3. Be the player your teammates want to play with..

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Unread post by Chicken Faced Killa » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 7:35 pm

Geo. wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 6:41 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm
Geo. wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:05 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm

Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
How much would a James Tedesco be worth to the Roosters compared to the Newcastle Knights in variable loadings...?
nothing... players should be graded individually
If that was the case and you are advocating Clubs can pay $$$ to whatever amount they want and a players points value is the same whichever Club they play for.. wouldn't that just allow the richer Clubs buy whoever they want...?!?...

Would a player or Club then be able to dispute their nominated points value..?
That's exactly what would happen.

Who determines how much a player is worth when their form drops or a player coming back from serious injury.

The more you think about a points system the more variables come up that would make it more and more complicated

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Unread post by Lidcombe Magpie » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 7:56 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
I have been banging on about this for years

Grading could be as follows:

Max 100 points

Current Tier 1 test player (Aust, NZ and Eng) 5 points
Current tier 2 test player (PNG, Fiji, Tonga etc) 2 points
Tier 1 test player in the last 3 years 3 Points
Current SSO player 4 points
SOO player in the last 2 years 3 points
Current 1st gde player for 5 years 2 points
Rookie 1st grader 1 point

25% discount for 5 years with a club
50% for 7 years

20% discount for a junior player for the club

Just a few thoughts but it can work

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Unread post by Tiger Watto » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 9:39 pm

Geo. wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 6:41 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm
Geo. wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 5:05 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm

Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
How much would a James Tedesco be worth to the Roosters compared to the Newcastle Knights in variable loadings...?
nothing... players should be graded individually
If that was the case and you are advocating Clubs can pay $$$ to whatever amount they want and a players points value is the same whichever Club they play for.. wouldn't that just allow the richer Clubs buy whoever they want...?!?...

Would a player or Club then be able to dispute their nominated points value..?
No, keep up ya dope
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Unread post by formerguest » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 10:31 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Oct, 2017 9:16 am
formerguest wrote:
Mon 09 Oct, 2017 11:02 am
Russell wrote:
Mon 09 Oct, 2017 8:29 am
formerguest wrote:
Sun 08 Oct, 2017 10:19 pm


It is an unreasonable restraint of trade to ban them.
That is true - so there must be a system put in place that controls them - or it is open slather as usual.
A central register for all non club affiliated TPA's is the only solution, but no chance in hell of the players association agreeing to it, particularly as most, if not all of it's leadership could be benefiting from these alleged insider deals.
I believe all legit TPAs must be registered w the NRL? NRL clubs are not allowed guarantee TPAs so the hard part is proving they aren't being guaranteed by the club.
Sorry, I should have worded it better. I meant to convey that arrangements for those agreements other than the already regulated and capped TPAs through club sponsors.

They should be directly controlled by the governing body, rather than brought to it by a club for approval as part of a new signing's contract, or extension for existing players.

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Unread post by Tiger Watto » Wed 11 Oct, 2017 11:28 pm

formerguest wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 10:31 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Tue 10 Oct, 2017 9:16 am
formerguest wrote:
Mon 09 Oct, 2017 11:02 am
Russell wrote:
Mon 09 Oct, 2017 8:29 am


That is true - so there must be a system put in place that controls them - or it is open slather as usual.
A central register for all non club affiliated TPA's is the only solution, but no chance in hell of the players association agreeing to it, particularly as most, if not all of it's leadership could be benefiting from these alleged insider deals.
I believe all legit TPAs must be registered w the NRL? NRL clubs are not allowed guarantee TPAs so the hard part is proving they aren't being guaranteed by the club.
Sorry, I should have worded it better. I meant to convey that arrangements for those agreements other than the already regulated and capped TPAs through club sponsors.

They should be directly controlled by the governing body, rather than brought to it by a club for approval as part of a new signing's contract, or extension for existing players.
The TPA system will always be rorted.

The NRL have some powers to investigate, but are powerless to investigate players or sponsors once they are no longer playing/sponsoring at the club.
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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 12 Oct, 2017 12:14 pm

Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
Yes but does it discriminate based on certain attributes? Will a defensive second rower grade worse than an attacking second rower? Will metres gained, tries scored and line breaks be favoured over total tackles, least missed tackles and less errors?
It's not cruelty if you inject enough amphetamines...

Fuerza en la adversidad.

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Unread post by TripleB » Thu 12 Oct, 2017 12:54 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 12 Oct, 2017 12:14 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
Yes but does it discriminate based on certain attributes? Will a defensive second rower grade worse than an attacking second rower? Will metres gained, tries scored and line breaks be favoured over total tackles, least missed tackles and less errors?
Whilst I don't think it will be easy to do, I think that a points system is the best way forward to make it fair for all teams. It may well be that there is some discrimination on certain attributes, but once the system is known, all teams will be on an even playing field. They can all only have a certain number of points and the fact that the Roosters can offer players more money than we can only matters to the players' bank accounts as once they hit the ceiling for points they cannot sign more players.

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Unread post by supercoach » Thu 12 Oct, 2017 3:02 pm

TripleB wrote:
Thu 12 Oct, 2017 12:54 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 12 Oct, 2017 12:14 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
Yes but does it discriminate based on certain attributes? Will a defensive second rower grade worse than an attacking second rower? Will metres gained, tries scored and line breaks be favoured over total tackles, least missed tackles and less errors?
Whilst I don't think it will be easy to do, I think that a points system is the best way forward to make it fair for all teams. It may well be that there is some discrimination on certain attributes, but once the system is known, all teams will be on an even playing field. They can all only have a certain number of points and the fact that the Roosters can offer players more money than we can only matters to the players' bank accounts as once they hit the ceiling for points they cannot sign more players.

Have been beating this drum for years. Its the only way to go, and it will put all teams on a level playing field. Okay it might mean the Chooks can outbid everyone on a marquee player, but it will come at cost in their total points.

Okay coming up with a system to award players points would not be easy, but has to be the way to go

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Unread post by WestsBenTigers » Thu 12 Oct, 2017 5:26 pm

Well if the salary cap was stat-based points, then if a team has a really bad year with really bad stats - Then they will have more room in the cap for the next season, which makes it unfair because players are being graded less points than they are actually worth.

There will always be flaws no matter which way we do it. If we want an to make it fair, we have to find a way to eliminate TPA's, not change the salary cap!

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Unread post by Tiger Watto » Thu 12 Oct, 2017 5:50 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 12 Oct, 2017 12:14 pm
Tiger Watto wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:47 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 11 Oct, 2017 3:14 pm
In a points system what are the prerequisites that are required for determining a merely good player from a top tier player?
Each players grading would be a compilation of points inclusive of a base & variable loadings etc?
Yes but does it discriminate based on certain attributes? Will a defensive second rower grade worse than an attacking second rower? Will metres gained, tries scored and line breaks be favoured over total tackles, least missed tackles and less errors?
Mate, I dont know the answer to the actualy scenario which would attribute to a grading system, but I know it simply cant be like Super Coach or Fantasy League etc. They are some of the dumbest gradings I have seen.

I feel Experience over Rookie has a exact value, I feel a Centre over a Halfback has another value, a 5 game SOO player over a 20 Game SOO Player etc, but I dont feel it should be based on each players actualy work-rate.

Its only an option/alternative to discuss based on most peoples disgust in the current un-even playing field based on a $ Cap, TPA's and the lack of reward for clubs who develop juniors etc.
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