Kent on Hayne

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jirskyr
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Re: Kent on Hayne

Unread post by jirskyr » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm

tigerap wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:30 am
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:18 pm
Far out this sort of thing fires me up. I’m so sick of the inequity in the NRL. The draw is a joke, third party agreements are a joke, the salary cap is rorted, some teams are refereed differently to others....... and those charged with the responsibility to govern couldn’t grow a choko vine over a sh#%house. I’d say rant over but I doubt it is .......
Tiger Steve you are spot on mate...Our game is a shambles and the fans can see it which is why attendance numbers are down....It seems every marquee player who comes on the market is going to one of 3 Sydney clubs in the Sharks, Roosters or Parramatta...No other clubs gets a look in...
Why is the game the shambles just because of perceived inequalities in the salary cap?

The salary cap is flawed, always has been, but generally speaking it works as a talent distribution system. There are always going to be individual situations that don't look consistent from the outside, but this is because those judgements are always somewhat subjective, same as all the other human components like refereeing, bunker, judiciary etc.

What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.

I'm annoyed by the Roosters situation with Cronk/Tedesco, but that's not salary cap as far as I can see, that's TPAs and successful clubs often getting their man. But that's sport, money talks and top clubs get their way more often than lower clubs, happens in every code.

We could scrap the cap or modify it and introduce a draft, but the reality is every club and manager will always be trying to test the limits of the cap rules, it's in their interests to do so. I don't see how this fall specifically on the NRL governance.


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Unread post by TigerTiger » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:52 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm
tigerap wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:30 am
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:18 pm
Far out this sort of thing fires me up. I’m so sick of the inequity in the NRL. The draw is a joke, third party agreements are a joke, the salary cap is rorted, some teams are refereed differently to others....... and those charged with the responsibility to govern couldn’t grow a choko vine over a sh#%house. I’d say rant over but I doubt it is .......
Tiger Steve you are spot on mate...Our game is a shambles and the fans can see it which is why attendance numbers are down....It seems every marquee player who comes on the market is going to one of 3 Sydney clubs in the Sharks, Roosters or Parramatta...No other clubs gets a look in...
Why is the game the shambles just because of perceived inequalities in the salary cap?

The salary cap is flawed, always has been, but generally speaking it works as a talent distribution system. There are always going to be individual situations that don't look consistent from the outside, but this is because those judgements are always somewhat subjective, same as all the other human components like refereeing, bunker, judiciary etc.

What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.

I'm annoyed by the Roosters situation with Cronk/Tedesco, but that's not salary cap as far as I can see, that's TPAs and successful clubs often getting their man. But that's sport, money talks and top clubs get their way more often than lower clubs, happens in every code.

We could scrap the cap or modify it and introduce a draft, but the reality is every club and manager will always be trying to test the limits of the cap rules, it's in their interests to do so. I don't see how this fall specifically on the NRL governance.
Everything you say is right, I just think the NRL administration should be trying harder to police their own rules.

We have a salary cap to try and distribute the talent as evenly as possible (or to stop clubs with more connections getting a huge advantage over other clubs), and part of that is to have the clubs NOT arranging TPAs. A lot of clubs clearly are, and the NRL should be trying a lot harder to curb that.

At present, I see the NRL doing nothing, with their head in the sand, saying it's too hard, let's just look in the other direction. As a supporter of a club that does not have the connections that some other clubs have, I see my club being left behind because we can't bend the rules as well as the others, and of course I don't like it. So I want the NRL to do more.

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Unread post by happy tiger » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 2:04 pm

I still think the authorities of the game is too scared to find out how badly they administer the game and how easy that teams flaunt the rules in regards to TPA's

But as I like to say , if you can't beat them , join them

No reason we can't do the same with some excellent work behind the scenes

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Unread post by diedpretty » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 2:51 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm
tigerap wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:30 am
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:18 pm
Far out this sort of thing fires me up. I’m so sick of the inequity in the NRL. The draw is a joke, third party agreements are a joke, the salary cap is rorted, some teams are refereed differently to others....... and those charged with the responsibility to govern couldn’t grow a choko vine over a sh#%house. I’d say rant over but I doubt it is .......
Tiger Steve you are spot on mate...Our game is a shambles and the fans can see it which is why attendance numbers are down....It seems every marquee player who comes on the market is going to one of 3 Sydney clubs in the Sharks, Roosters or Parramatta...No other clubs gets a look in...
Why is the game the shambles just because of perceived inequalities in the salary cap?

The salary cap is flawed, always has been, but generally speaking it works as a talent distribution system. There are always going to be individual situations that don't look consistent from the outside, but this is because those judgements are always somewhat subjective, same as all the other human components like refereeing, bunker, judiciary etc.

What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.

I'm annoyed by the Roosters situation with Cronk/Tedesco, but that's not salary cap as far as I can see, that's TPAs and successful clubs often getting their man. But that's sport, money talks and top clubs get their way more often than lower clubs, happens in every code.

We could scrap the cap or modify it and introduce a draft, but the reality is every club and manager will always be trying to test the limits of the cap rules, it's in their interests to do so. I don't see how this fall specifically on the NRL governance.
The point is he could have stayed at the Titans for one more year and collected 1.2 mil - thats a fact. Instead he pulls some whiny little story about his family and happily gives up 700k to be closer to them. Its nothing to do with what he is worth - he may only be worth 300k but he could have received 1.2mil and still bludged away like he did last year. My subjective view is its BS and he will be playing for more than 500k at Parra. Can i prove it - no.

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Unread post by cktiger » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 3:34 pm

Pretty easy to work out the value of a player - put him on the open market.
If Parra can offer him a deal somewhere near the highest offer and stay under the cap then fine.
I'm pretty sure Newcastle and some others would have offered a lot more than $500K though.


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Unread post by Harvey » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 5:33 pm

His family are in Forster. Hardly think Parramatta is the best geographical location to be close to them. The fact is most player managers are dodgy. I was looking interested to read that they get 6 % of contract, but 20% of TPA's that they organise, like Maloney's Keno deal.
Most professional sports now attract grubs as players, administrators and hangers on

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Unread post by Fraze23 » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:21 pm

I think a lot of what is being spoken about in regards to Hayne is my main issue with the way the Roosters run their cap. The problem isn't with the TPA's themselves, but the fact that the NRL allows clubs to register players on the salary cap for far less than their market value.

Regardless of your opinion of Hayne, he's worth far more than 500K. Worst thing is, the NRL knows this is happening and does absolutely nothing about it.

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Unread post by Munk » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:30 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm
What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.
Thats not correct. He never went to market. If he had there were more teams with space to fit him in. Something dodgy has happened and the NRL are turning a blind eye.

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Unread post by happy tiger » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:39 pm

Munk wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:30 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm
What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.
Thats not correct. He never went to market. If he had there were more teams with space to fit him in. Something dodgy has happened and the NRL are turning a blind eye.
Seriously who would want Hayne

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Unread post by Fraze23 » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:57 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:39 pm
Munk wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:30 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm
What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.
Thats not correct. He never went to market. If he had there were more teams with space to fit him in. Something dodgy has happened and the NRL are turning a blind eye.
Seriously who would want Hayne
I don't think that's the right question. It is how can they add a representative player to their roster for half his current value without having to lose any players? I don't want Hayne, but I wouldn't mind having Gutherson.

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Unread post by Nelson » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:58 pm

Fraze23 wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:21 pm
I think a lot of what is being spoken about in regards to Hayne is my main issue with the way the Roosters run their cap. The problem isn't with the TPA's themselves, but the fact that the NRL allows clubs to register players on the salary cap for far less than their market value.

Regardless of your opinion of Hayne, he's worth far more than 500K. Worst thing is, the NRL knows this is happening and does absolutely nothing about it.
Why is he worth far more than $500K? He was released (at his own request) at a time of year when most teams had their rosters settled. Numerous clubs just would not have had the cap space to make him an offer of $500K or more and those that could have offered that much or more may not have wanted to, or needed him in a position that would warrant that kind of outlay.

Take Newcastle for example. They've signed up Ponga to play fullback at $600K per year and have Watson as a backup option. Their halves are also covered with Pearce, Watson, Lamb and Cogger. So they did not need Hayne in a spine position as, on 2017 form, he would not necessarily be an upgrade on what they had available and what they'd already heavily invested in. Plus he's a risk because of his reported bad attitude which you don't want around a young squad. They have a need at centre but how much is Hayne worth as a centre? Sure he got picked there for Origin but that was pretty obviously based on reputation. He didn't deliver much there. Personally I could understand why Newcastle would not be interested in paying Hayne $500K plus to play centre.

Who else has money? The Titans? Well that's where he's leaving...The Warriors? They have RTS and Hayne couldn't really go there given the supposed justification for his compassionate release. The Tigers? I suspect we wouldn't have wanted him and he wouldn't have wanted us. Manly have Tom Trbojevic. The Roosters have the most stacked backline in the comp and need forwards, not backs. Panthers and Dogs have no cap space. Sharks already have about 20 fullbacks...

As a centre I think $500K is about what any club would have been prepared to pay him, or at least not too far off the mark. He's just not that good anymore...

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Unread post by happy tiger » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:07 pm

Fraze23 wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:57 pm
happy tiger wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:39 pm
Munk wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:30 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm
What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.
Thats not correct. He never went to market. If he had there were more teams with space to fit him in. Something dodgy has happened and the NRL are turning a blind eye.
Seriously who would want Hayne
I don't think that's the right question. It is how can they add a representative player to their roster for half his current value without having to lose any players? I don't want Hayne, but I wouldn't mind having Gutherson.
The rumours are already out there that they are releasing Bevan French

If they under the cap and salary cap auditors are happy what can anyone do

So maybe it is the right question , Parra were one of the red hot sides the back end of 2017 , probably the only club who really tested Melbourne in the semis , why would they risk further success signing the Hayne Refrain

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Unread post by Munk » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:22 pm

Nelson wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:58 pm
Fraze23 wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:21 pm
I think a lot of what is being spoken about in regards to Hayne is my main issue with the way the Roosters run their cap. The problem isn't with the TPA's themselves, but the fact that the NRL allows clubs to register players on the salary cap for far less than their market value.

Regardless of your opinion of Hayne, he's worth far more than 500K. Worst thing is, the NRL knows this is happening and does absolutely nothing about it.
Why is he worth far more than $500K? He was released (at his own request) at a time of year when most teams had their rosters settled. Numerous clubs just would not have had the cap space to make him an offer of $500K or more and those that could have offered that much or more may not have wanted to, or needed him in a position that would warrant that kind of outlay.

Take Newcastle for example. They've signed up Ponga to play fullback at $600K per year and have Watson as a backup option. Their halves are also covered with Pearce, Watson, Lamb and Cogger. So they did not need Hayne in a spine position as, on 2017 form, he would not necessarily be an upgrade on what they had available and what they'd already heavily invested in. Plus he's a risk because of his reported bad attitude which you don't want around a young squad. They have a need at centre but how much is Hayne worth as a centre? Sure he got picked there for Origin but that was pretty obviously based on reputation. He didn't deliver much there. Personally I could understand why Newcastle would not be interested in paying Hayne $500K plus to play centre.

Who else has money? The Titans? Well that's where he's leaving...The Warriors? They have RTS and Hayne couldn't really go there given the supposed justification for his compassionate release. The Tigers? I suspect we wouldn't have wanted him and he wouldn't have wanted us. Manly have Tom Trbojevic. The Roosters have the most stacked backline in the comp and need forwards, not backs. Panthers and Dogs have no cap space. Sharks already have about 20 fullbacks...

As a centre I think $500K is about what any club would have been prepared to pay him, or at least not too far off the mark. He's just not that good anymore...
You are completely missing the point we are making. He has told the NRL hed rather earn 500k than 1.2mill, with a team renowned for cap breaches recently and they said yep sounds good move forward, nothing questionable there.

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Unread post by goldcoast tiger » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:39 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:37 am
Nelson wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 9:44 pm
Munk wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:59 pm
Nelson wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:13 pm
I don't see a problem with it. He was a speculative signing given his time away from the game and the Titans paid crazy money in part because they hoped he would be a crowd puller. He has utterly failed to deliver both on and off the field. As a player his value has plummeted and as a marketing tool his value has plummeted. He has however substantially enhanced his status as an actual tool.
You dont see any problem with a player breaking a contract and taking a $700 000 pay reduction to join a club busted for salary cap rorts only a year and a bit ago? That doesnt set any red flags up for you?
He didn't break a contract, they agreed to release him because he wasn't worth anywhere near the cash he was taking up and was and is a toxic figure. His ego is probably what drove him back to Parra. He sniffed the possibility of a premiership and wants to be celebrated as the prodigal son returned to lead them to glory (and if they do win that will probably be the narrative in his head regardless of the reality).

I don't think the NRL could stop him taking a massive pay cut, that would be a restraint of trade. They could however refuse to register the contract as anything less than a nominal market value against Parra's cap. $500K does not seem to be grossly outside his market value at this time. Ferguson has tainted his market value with off field crap. SKD compromised his market value with off field crap. It happens...
I don't believe for a minute he takes a $700K pay cut when his family is a 1 hour plane ride from the Gold Coast.

They get a cut price signing who was worth over double just 12 months ago and were busted for breaching the cap in 2016? Come on...
Funny how a lot here have been saying over and over that Hayne wasn’t worth what The Titans were paying him,
Now that a club pays him what he is worth (at least at the moment) they’re still complaining.
How logical is that?

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Unread post by goldcoast tiger » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:44 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 1:31 pm
tigerap wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:30 am
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:18 pm
Far out this sort of thing fires me up. I’m so sick of the inequity in the NRL. The draw is a joke, third party agreements are a joke, the salary cap is rorted, some teams are refereed differently to others....... and those charged with the responsibility to govern couldn’t grow a choko vine over a sh#%house. I’d say rant over but I doubt it is .......
Tiger Steve you are spot on mate...Our game is a shambles and the fans can see it which is why attendance numbers are down....It seems every marquee player who comes on the market is going to one of 3 Sydney clubs in the Sharks, Roosters or Parramatta...No other clubs gets a look in...
[/quote

Why is the game the shambles just because of perceived inequalities in the salary cap?

The salary cap is flawed, always has been, but generally speaking it works as a talent distribution system. There are always going to be individual situations that don't look consistent from the outside, but this is because those judgements are always somewhat subjective, same as all the other human components like refereeing, bunker, judiciary etc.

What is a player worth? Subjective, he's worth what someone would pay for him. Nobody except Parra appears to want a bar of Hayne, so personally if 1/16 clubs want him, that's a fairly large dive in value. Parra can have him, don't think anyone else particularly cares or wanted Hayne at their club.

I'm annoyed by the Roosters situation with Cronk/Tedesco, but that's not salary cap as far as I can see, that's TPAs and successful clubs often getting their man. But that's sport, money talks and top clubs get their way more often than lower clubs, happens in every code.

We could scrap the cap or modify it and introduce a draft, but the reality is every club and manager will always be trying to test the limits of the cap rules, it's in their interests to do so. I don't see how this fall specifically on the NRL governance.
I can’t see a draft ever getting a start again in the NRL.
It could only work with the support of all players and clubs, as it’s a definite restraint of trade

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Unread post by tig_prmz » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 9:07 pm

the salary cap is dodgier than the prince of nigeria offerring you $10M.

player managers, club admins, NRL admins and players all know that if one gets done, it'll open a whole bigger can of worms. everyone's gonna turn a blind eye to it, until one club pushes it one too far and the whole thing blows open.

NRL is the most amateur comp IMO.
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Unread post by Munk » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 9:08 pm

goldcoast tiger wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:39 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:37 am
Nelson wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 9:44 pm
Munk wrote:
Tue 05 Dec, 2017 8:59 pm


You dont see any problem with a player breaking a contract and taking a $700 000 pay reduction to join a club busted for salary cap rorts only a year and a bit ago? That doesnt set any red flags up for you?
He didn't break a contract, they agreed to release him because he wasn't worth anywhere near the cash he was taking up and was and is a toxic figure. His ego is probably what drove him back to Parra. He sniffed the possibility of a premiership and wants to be celebrated as the prodigal son returned to lead them to glory (and if they do win that will probably be the narrative in his head regardless of the reality).

I don't think the NRL could stop him taking a massive pay cut, that would be a restraint of trade. They could however refuse to register the contract as anything less than a nominal market value against Parra's cap. $500K does not seem to be grossly outside his market value at this time. Ferguson has tainted his market value with off field crap. SKD compromised his market value with off field crap. It happens...
I don't believe for a minute he takes a $700K pay cut when his family is a 1 hour plane ride from the Gold Coast.

They get a cut price signing who was worth over double just 12 months ago and were busted for breaching the cap in 2016? Come on...
Funny how a lot here have been saying over and over that Hayne wasn’t worth what The Titans were paying him,
Now that a club pays him what he is worth (at least at the moment) they’re still complaining.
How logical is that?
I never complained about his pay for the Titans. When he re-signed to the NRL he was one of the premier names in Australian sport. Whats happened now is bollocks. If he went on the open market and 500k is all he got offered, so be it. Thats not what happened. He did a backdoor deal to supposedly rob himself of $700k. Im sorry but only the gullible would not see a problem with that.

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Unread post by Nelson » Wed 06 Dec, 2017 9:20 pm

Munk wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 8:22 pm
Nelson wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 7:58 pm
Fraze23 wrote:
Wed 06 Dec, 2017 6:21 pm
I think a lot of what is being spoken about in regards to Hayne is my main issue with the way the Roosters run their cap. The problem isn't with the TPA's themselves, but the fact that the NRL allows clubs to register players on the salary cap for far less than their market value.

Regardless of your opinion of Hayne, he's worth far more than 500K. Worst thing is, the NRL knows this is happening and does absolutely nothing about it.
Why is he worth far more than $500K? He was released (at his own request) at a time of year when most teams had their rosters settled. Numerous clubs just would not have had the cap space to make him an offer of $500K or more and those that could have offered that much or more may not have wanted to, or needed him in a position that would warrant that kind of outlay.

Take Newcastle for example. They've signed up Ponga to play fullback at $600K per year and have Watson as a backup option. Their halves are also covered with Pearce, Watson, Lamb and Cogger. So they did not need Hayne in a spine position as, on 2017 form, he would not necessarily be an upgrade on what they had available and what they'd already heavily invested in. Plus he's a risk because of his reported bad attitude which you don't want around a young squad. They have a need at centre but how much is Hayne worth as a centre? Sure he got picked there for Origin but that was pretty obviously based on reputation. He didn't deliver much there. Personally I could understand why Newcastle would not be interested in paying Hayne $500K plus to play centre.

Who else has money? The Titans? Well that's where he's leaving...The Warriors? They have RTS and Hayne couldn't really go there given the supposed justification for his compassionate release. The Tigers? I suspect we wouldn't have wanted him and he wouldn't have wanted us. Manly have Tom Trbojevic. The Roosters have the most stacked backline in the comp and need forwards, not backs. Panthers and Dogs have no cap space. Sharks already have about 20 fullbacks...

As a centre I think $500K is about what any club would have been prepared to pay him, or at least not too far off the mark. He's just not that good anymore...
You are completely missing the point we are making. He has told the NRL hed rather earn 500k than 1.2mill, with a team renowned for cap breaches recently and they said yep sounds good move forward, nothing questionable there.
What do you want them to do? Say no you can't play because we think it sounds dodgy? As it stood at the moment he was released by the Titans he stood to make $0 in 2018. What you're saying is the NRL should have told him no, you can't be paid $500K in 2018 instead of $0. That would just land the NRL in legal trouble for restraint of trade. They can't punish players, they can only punish clubs and they can only do that by reference to a nominal market value (which is also probably questionable). For the reasons I've already given his market value is a far cry from what it once was.

I'm not missing any point. I think you're grossly overestimating what the NRL can do based on thinking something's dodgy when they have no evidence. Maybe they will investigate.

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