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Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 1:53 pm
by barra
The latest fiasco concerning Jarryd Hayne taking a near 60% pay cut and NRL being okay with it has once again highlighted the vagaries with a salary-cap/TPA arrangement as we know it. It is clear that some clubs do this very well while the majority cannot compete.

Some others on this forum that know the game better than I, have been suggesting a rating or points system for players/teams instead of a salary cap. I now agree with them!

From my work as a designer, I've learned that virtually everything in life can be exactly quantified. It's basically how the human race operates. There is absolutely no reason why an NRL player can't be quantified. This could be interpreted as a value - but not a Fantasy type value, it would need to be far more complex and far-reaching than that.

It absolutely can be done properly - not that I'm confident the NRL could do it properly given their track record. But the way that things are going seem to be reaching boiling point and is not good for the longevity of the game.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 2:10 pm
by happy tiger
Still comes back to supply and demand which will mess with the points system

An example would be the current situation with fullbacks and hookers , most clubs have good quality fullbacks and hookers

Then rate the backrowers and centres , far different situation

One club's diamond might be another club's fools gold , how do you rate that ??

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 2:33 pm
by Geo.
Perhaps we should be getting better at managing our own Cap..

I believe Cleary and Egan have us heading in the right direction..

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 5:41 pm
by barra
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 2:10 pm
Still comes back to supply and demand which will mess with the points system

An example would be the current situation with fullbacks and hookers , most clubs have good quality fullbacks and hookers

Then rate the backrowers and centres , far different situation

One club's diamond might be another club's fools gold , how do you rate that ??
That would be up to the club, not the rating. Like a players worth being 'market value', that depends on the market at the time and the clubs chasing the player. Market value doesn't necessarily mean the player's value, if you know what I mean.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 5:49 pm
by happy tiger
barra wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 5:41 pm
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 2:10 pm
Still comes back to supply and demand which will mess with the points system

An example would be the current situation with fullbacks and hookers , most clubs have good quality fullbacks and hookers

Then rate the backrowers and centres , far different situation

One club's diamond might be another club's fools gold , how do you rate that ??
That would be up to the club, not the rating. Like a players worth being 'market value', that depends on the market at the time and the clubs chasing the player. Market value doesn't necessarily mean the player's value, if you know what I mean.
I think it could work , but you'd need to find a way to make home grown talent worth more to the club that produced it and you'd have to rate every player in the world or clubs would just start bringing every Pommie player they could over

And then the other issue is rating International players , as we have seen there are international players and then you have "international" players

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 9:17 pm
by formerguest
Under such a system I envisage wholesale appeals to lower their nominal value and/or rating as players come off contract, making them more attractive to get more dollars from the rich clubs.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 9:14 am
by old man tiger
I think a points or rating system is the fairest way. Remove the cap, let the roosters etc pay what they want for the best players they can afford under a points system. It would be non sensitive information that would be fine for the public domain. Discounts for home grown talent, and that's it, a workable model.

This would mean player salaries remain private, which I believe they should unless there is illegal activity involved in them earning a living.

I know it looks impossible, and probably will never happen because the sport is corrupt. We can still dream that the "leaders" who run the game could actually do something to justify their salaries.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 9:17 am
by old man tiger
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 5:49 pm
barra wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 5:41 pm
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 2:10 pm
Still comes back to supply and demand which will mess with the points system

An example would be the current situation with fullbacks and hookers , most clubs have good quality fullbacks and hookers

Then rate the backrowers and centres , far different situation

One club's diamond might be another club's fools gold , how do you rate that ??
That would be up to the club, not the rating. Like a players worth being 'market value', that depends on the market at the time and the clubs chasing the player. Market value doesn't necessarily mean the player's value, if you know what I mean.
I think it could work , but you'd need to find a way to make home grown talent worth more to the club that produced it and you'd have to rate every player in the world or clubs would just start bringing every Pommie player they could over

And then the other issue is rating International players , as we have seen there are international players and then you have "international" players
I think the international sides are classified by tier already mate, as there are special rules for tier 2 countries or whatever they are called, during the World Cup.

Nonetheless, it would be hard to classify by rep honours. Danny Levi would struggle to make some Clubs' bench and ran out as NZ hooker. Godinet might have been next in line :shock:

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 9:21 am
by barra
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 5:49 pm
barra wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 5:41 pm
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 07 Dec, 2017 2:10 pm
Still comes back to supply and demand which will mess with the points system

An example would be the current situation with fullbacks and hookers , most clubs have good quality fullbacks and hookers

Then rate the backrowers and centres , far different situation

One club's diamond might be another club's fools gold , how do you rate that ??
That would be up to the club, not the rating. Like a players worth being 'market value', that depends on the market at the time and the clubs chasing the player. Market value doesn't necessarily mean the player's value, if you know what I mean.
I think it could work , but you'd need to find a way to make home grown talent worth more to the club that produced it and you'd have to rate every player in the world or clubs would just start bringing every Pommie player they could over

And then the other issue is rating International players , as we have seen there are international players and then you have "international" players
It's all do-able Hap. Like I said, I've found that everything can be quantified. Once a template is set, it would be a straight-forward process to give any player a rating. There may have to be a hundred fields in the template, but it can definitely be done. Yes, even the 'intangibles'...

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 9:40 am
by happy tiger
The other two questions that have now come to mind are this

When do you upgrade/downgrade their ratings ??

What do we do with rookies ??

Obviously some rookies come with big wraps when they come in but aren't tested at NRL level or would they all receive the same rating

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 11:31 am
by barra
happy tiger wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 9:40 am
The other two questions that have now come to mind are this

When do you upgrade/downgrade their ratings ??

What do we do with rookies ??

Obviously some rookies come with big wraps when they come in but aren't tested at NRL level or would they all receive the same rating
I'd think that whatever programme is written for this would update automatically, so possibly daily? But once signed at a certain rating that amount/figure would stay the same in the team's cap for that contract.

I know even less about the ins and outs of rookies and while there might be merit in all rookies being viewed equally, I'm sure a template would be written to rate them too. Probably that would be done in any case... this could ultimately flow on to start when the player starts playing.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 12:00 pm
by WestsBenTigers
http://www.cricket.com.au/news/big-bash ... 2017-12-08

I think this is the way to go in terms of ranking players. Comparing a player's performance to what other players would've done in the same situation.

For example:
Tigers vs Storm in origin period. Kyle Lovett scores 2 tries, 200 metres, 35 tackles 0 missed, 15 tackle busts.
Cowboys vs Warriors Taumalalo makes 75 metres, 25 tackles 5 missed, 2 errors.

Then since Lovett had better stats in an easy situation he shoots up the rankings to top 10 forwards in the game and Taumalalo has to play without the stars in his team against an international-quality opponent with their strongest team and drops outside top 20. But if they swapped situations Taumalalo would've doubled Lovett's stats and Lovett would've halved Taumalalo's stats because Taumalalo > Lovett.

So this is definitely how the NRL should do the rankings if they somehow decide to do it.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:29 pm
by underdog
Simple solution really -

Make all contracts public - much like the NFL and the NBA..

make it start from a certain year, so it gets rolled in, and this way within 10 years the league becomes completely transparant, and this way players know exactly what they are signing up for before they commence with a Professional contract with the NRL.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:37 pm
by Geo.
underdog wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:29 pm
Simple solution really -

Make all contracts public - much like the NFL and the NBA..

make it start from a certain year, so it gets rolled in, and this way within 10 years the league becomes completely transparant, and this way players know exactly what they are signing up for before they commence with a Professional contract with the NRL.
Are Real estate Salaries made public..?

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 3:02 pm
by underdog
Geo. wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:37 pm
underdog wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:29 pm
Simple solution really -

Make all contracts public - much like the NFL and the NBA..

make it start from a certain year, so it gets rolled in, and this way within 10 years the league becomes completely transparant, and this way players know exactly what they are signing up for before they commence with a Professional contract with the NRL.
Are Real estate Salaries made public..?

Pretty much.. - you can go to ratemyagent.com.au and see what volumes agents do, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what agents are earning, once you know what their cuts are... :mrgreen:

I do understand where you are coming from though Geo - Salary is one of the great last taboos to discuss -
however I feel it's about building the culture - the key point I make is that in my model you know EXACTLY what you are signing into as a player and as a manager - if you don't want your salary disclosed, don't play professional rugby league - simple.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 3:23 pm
by Cultured Bogan
Geo. wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:37 pm
underdog wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:29 pm
Simple solution really -

Make all contracts public - much like the NFL and the NBA..

make it start from a certain year, so it gets rolled in, and this way within 10 years the league becomes completely transparant, and this way players know exactly what they are signing up for before they commence with a Professional contract with the NRL.
Are Real estate Salaries made public..?
Are Real Estates governed by an industry imposed salary cap?

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 3:36 pm
by diedpretty
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 3:23 pm
Geo. wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:37 pm
underdog wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:29 pm
Simple solution really -

Make all contracts public - much like the NFL and the NBA..

make it start from a certain year, so it gets rolled in, and this way within 10 years the league becomes completely transparant, and this way players know exactly what they are signing up for before they commence with a Professional contract with the NRL.
Are Real estate Salaries made public..?
Are Real Estates governed by an industry imposed salary cap?
Thats true - and from that because it is industry imposed i believe every club should have to publish what they are paying each player from their cap. TPAs would not be disclosed as they are outside the cap and supposedly are removed from the club. It would give fans a much clearer indication of how unfair the whole system is. Of course its never going to happen as the NRL know it would make a mockery of the whole salary system.

Re: Is it time to exactly quantify the players value?

Posted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 4:22 pm
by Cultured Bogan
underdog wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 3:02 pm
Geo. wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:37 pm
underdog wrote:
Fri 08 Dec, 2017 2:29 pm
Simple solution really -

Make all contracts public - much like the NFL and the NBA..

make it start from a certain year, so it gets rolled in, and this way within 10 years the league becomes completely transparant, and this way players know exactly what they are signing up for before they commence with a Professional contract with the NRL.
Are Real estate Salaries made public..?

Pretty much.. - you can go to ratemyagent.com.au and see what volumes agents do, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what agents are earning, once you know what their cuts are... :mrgreen:

I do understand where you are coming from though Geo - Salary is one of the great last taboos to discuss -
however I feel it's about building the culture - the key point I make is that in my model you know EXACTLY what you are signing into as a player and as a manager - if you don't want your salary disclosed, don't play professional rugby league - simple.
The guy who sold our place charges a flat 2.5% commission. Not sure what the split is in the commission between agent and principal, but even if it was only 25% the bloke moves houses like hotcakes and would still be earning at least two or three hundred grand a year.