Moltzen and Groat

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innsaneink
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Re: Moltzen and Groat

Post by innsaneink » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 10:46 pm

tiger91 wrote:
dermo wrote:
GNR4LIFE wrote:
DonnyBrasco wrote:
X2 about moltzen. Lui was the human turnstyle, so lets give moltz more time to settle in properly, was only a few years ago he killed it with benji.


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The only thing Moltzen has ever killed has been overlaps. Can you ever remember him doing anything at halback thats worth remembering?
Moltzen has done quite a bit to remember at halfback actually, perhaps his defence that is infinite times better than Robert Lui's, or perhaps doing his job which is give early ball to the best attacking player in the world, ask yourself this, if you were playing next to the best attacking player in the world, would you be the one trying to create things? or would you give it to ol mate marshall outside you to do the work? quite frankly i think one thing Benji could learn from Moltzen would be to give HIS outside man in Lawerence (the best centre in the world) early ball so he atleast has time to try and set up his winger or beat the man marking him. Maybe you've noticed that the few times Lawerence has set up his winger hes had to catch and pass with the defence in his face or actually in the process of takleing him and it is only his skill that enables him to pull it off, but most of the time he doesnt and
Ashyford certainly cant.

Im sick of seeing Tim Moltzen put up as a scape goat for our poor attacking performances when he his simply doing the job the coach is telling him to do, next time look at the men controlling our attack before you start having a go at him
Moltzen should be on of those guys controlling our attack. We all seem to think that if you have one superstar half, the other can get away with little involvement because "he's playing in the Marshall show".

It's not an excuse when you look at some of the other halves combos in the comp:

Manly have DCE and Foran, Melbourne have Cronk and Widdop, last year Brisbane had Lockyer and Wallace.

To a lesser extent Warriors have Maloney and Johnson, and the Cowboys have Thurston and Thompson/Lui.

Looking at the above combinations, each player is a potent attacking half or at least has the skills to alleviate pressure from the more dominant half.

At the moment, Moltzen isn't either. He needs to step up to take the pressure from Marshall at the very least.

The only thing he well tonight was rush out of the line and pressure the Dragons attack. As far as I'm concerned we could put a 2nd rower in the 7 jersey and do just as well.

Bottom line: MOLTZEN NEEDS TO STEP UP!!!


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1/4 chicken,chips
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Post by 1/4 chicken,chips » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 10:46 pm

We got owned around the ruck ,we couldnt slow the play the ball down and they made easy metres straight up the guts .dermo has a point.
my forward pack
8 blair
9farah
10 bell
11ellis
12 fulton
13 ayshford
14 hino
15bmm
16 woods
17 ???

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Post by tiger91 » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 10:48 pm

innsaneink wrote:
tiger91 wrote:
dermo wrote:
GNR4LIFE wrote: The only thing Moltzen has ever killed has been overlaps. Can you ever remember him doing anything at halback thats worth remembering?
Moltzen has done quite a bit to remember at halfback actually, perhaps his defence that is infinite times better than Robert Lui's, or perhaps doing his job which is give early ball to the best attacking player in the world, ask yourself this, if you were playing next to the best attacking player in the world, would you be the one trying to create things? or would you give it to ol mate marshall outside you to do the work? quite frankly i think one thing Benji could learn from Moltzen would be to give HIS outside man in Lawerence (the best centre in the world) early ball so he atleast has time to try and set up his winger or beat the man marking him. Maybe you've noticed that the few times Lawerence has set up his winger hes had to catch and pass with the defence in his face or actually in the process of takleing him and it is only his skill that enables him to pull it off, but most of the time he doesnt and
Ashyford certainly cant.

Im sick of seeing Tim Moltzen put up as a scape goat for our poor attacking performances when he his simply doing the job the coach is telling him to do, next time look at the men controlling our attack before you start having a go at him
Moltzen should be on of those guys controlling our attack. We all seem to think that if you have one superstar half, the other can get away with little involvement because "he's playing in the Marshall show".

It's not an excuse when you look at some of the other halves combos in the comp:

Manly have DCE and Foran, Melbourne have Cronk and Widdop, last year Brisbane had Lockyer and Wallace.

To a lesser extent Warriors have Maloney and Johnson, and the Cowboys have Thurston and Thompson/Lui.

Looking at the above combinations, each player is a potent attacking half or at least has the skills to alleviate pressure from the more dominant half.

At the moment, Moltzen isn't either. He needs to step up to take the pressure from Marshall at the very least.

The only thing he well tonight was rush out of the line and pressure the Dragons attack. As far as I'm concerned we could put a 2nd rower in the 7 jersey and do just as well.

Bottom line: MOLTZEN NEEDS TO STEP UP!!!


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Post by saundo1982 » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 10:57 pm

[quote="GNR4LIFE"] In Groat's case i wouldn't even consider him a first grader.What does he offer? Give me Fifita over Groat anyday of the week. Nothing i've ever seen from him has me excited.

Did u not see the article about sharks players being less then impressed with the effort of fifita on the training paddock??




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Post by Alf Duguid » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 11:04 pm

Sorry Dermo to disappoint you but Tim should have taken control and lead the team around the park. He had the perfect opportunity to grow a set. Any time you want to join us in reality, feel free too


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Post by fergiefurr » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 11:06 pm

groat cost us hugely in the semi last year and has been just as bad this year

but sheens has decided he likes him so he has a spot in the 17 for life

ill throw fulton in the 'not a first grader' category too

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Post by Glennb » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 11:26 pm

fulleightyminutes wrote:I was pretty skeptical about BMM. But i am starting to see what obviously coaches have seen in him. He has impact. I saw a lot of Moltzen in State cup as five eighth, with lazarus at half, and he is a good, creative player. A matchwinner often. we have all been wanting a dominat half, ala Johns, DCE, even Matt Head etc but we have Marshall and I don't think any of us would want to go back to the days before Marshall, so maybe we have to accept that the ball will always go to him and Moltzen will have to find his feet within the Farah/Marshall mould. Just a thought.
Look this line of argument is really starting to grate on me. I'm not picking on you full 80, Dermo is saying the same thing. Some people here make out the halfs job is just ot spark some flamboyant attacking move or to tear sides apart and therefore Moltzen gets a pass because he has Benji outside him. It is a halfs job to organise the forwards and make sure the rigth guy gets the right pass to ensure that they get a good roll on and go forward. It is the halfs job to have a good kicking game. It is the halfs job to then get early crisp ball to a wide second rower or 5/8. There are MANY things that a half should do besides just give it to Benji.

I still say Mitchell Pearce is the right guy for us, but for me its clear Moltzen is not. Based on the little I've seen of Miller, he is more promising than Moltzen. Simply because he seems to be a pure half which we havent had since Prince.

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Post by dermo » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 11:33 pm

Glennb wrote:
fulleightyminutes wrote:I was pretty skeptical about BMM. But i am starting to see what obviously coaches have seen in him. He has impact. I saw a lot of Moltzen in State cup as five eighth, with lazarus at half, and he is a good, creative player. A matchwinner often. we have all been wanting a dominat half, ala Johns, DCE, even Matt Head etc but we have Marshall and I don't think any of us would want to go back to the days before Marshall, so maybe we have to accept that the ball will always go to him and Moltzen will have to find his feet within the Farah/Marshall mould. Just a thought.
Look this line of argument is really starting to grate on me. I'm not picking on you full 80, Dermo is saying the same thing. Some people here make out the halfs job is just ot spark some flamboyant attacking move or to tear sides apart and therefore Moltzen gets a pass because he has Benji outside him. It is a halfs job to organise the forwards and make sure the rigth guy gets the right pass to ensure that they get a good roll on and go forward. It is the halfs job to have a good kicking game. It is the halfs job to then get early crisp ball to a wide second rower or 5/8. There are MANY things that a half should do besides just give it to Benji.

I still say Mitchell Pearce is the right guy for us, but for me its clear Moltzen is not. Based on the little I've seen of Miller, he is more promising than Moltzen. Simply because he seems to be a pure half which we havent had since Prince.
Everything you say in the first paragraph is entirely correct, and with time Moltzen will settle into a role similar to this, much like Lui did, but at the moment it is Farah and Benji who share this role, since Prince left they have always done this and they will continue to do this aslong as they are both in the same team, so to some extent we will never have a pure halfback who controls the team.

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Post by Glennb » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 11:49 pm

dermo wrote:
Glennb wrote:
fulleightyminutes wrote:I was pretty skeptical about BMM. But i am starting to see what obviously coaches have seen in him. He has impact. I saw a lot of Moltzen in State cup as five eighth, with lazarus at half, and he is a good, creative player. A matchwinner often. we have all been wanting a dominat half, ala Johns, DCE, even Matt Head etc but we have Marshall and I don't think any of us would want to go back to the days before Marshall, so maybe we have to accept that the ball will always go to him and Moltzen will have to find his feet within the Farah/Marshall mould. Just a thought.
Look this line of argument is really starting to grate on me. I'm not picking on you full 80, Dermo is saying the same thing. Some people here make out the halfs job is just ot spark some flamboyant attacking move or to tear sides apart and therefore Moltzen gets a pass because he has Benji outside him. It is a halfs job to organise the forwards and make sure the rigth guy gets the right pass to ensure that they get a good roll on and go forward. It is the halfs job to have a good kicking game. It is the halfs job to then get early crisp ball to a wide second rower or 5/8. There are MANY things that a half should do besides just give it to Benji.

I still say Mitchell Pearce is the right guy for us, but for me its clear Moltzen is not. Based on the little I've seen of Miller, he is more promising than Moltzen. Simply because he seems to be a pure half which we havent had since Prince.
Everything you say in the first paragraph is entirely correct, and with time Moltzen will settle into a role similar to this, much like Lui did, but at the moment it is Farah and Benji who share this role, since Prince left they have always done this and they will continue to do this aslong as they are both in the same team, so to some extent we will never have a pure halfback who controls the team.
Then we may as well put Gareth in the 7 jersey because we are asking NOTHING of our half other than to tackle. This isnt kindergarten, its the NRL. We dont need players who will "settle into the position" with time. We need players who do it NOW, first up. To me thats the point. Playing halfback is an instinctive thing and I've seen nothing in Moltzen ( he has had time..what has happened to all the guys saying we've never lost with him at half etc) to show that he has those instincts. The ONLY thing I've seen in Miller to date is that he does have those instincts. Whether he has the skills, strength etc to back it up is unproven.

beer delivery guy

Post by beer delivery guy » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 11:53 pm

Horrid game, miller into half , moltzen into fullback , groat needs fitness, Fulton needs 5kgs to be more of an impact !!!
Farah is unfit. Reddy needs to get more involved like utai !!!!!
We need to improve massively to beat the raiders who are a good side this yr !!!!
THAT IS ALL !!!


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Post by Citizen Tiger » Fri 16 Mar, 2012 11:55 pm

This style of thread (and there are plenty of them) have less to do with objectivity and more to do with an unreasonable and quite unnatural levels of personal indignation. This place is a lousy and negative environment after a loss, where all sense of balance and context are sacrificed in the name of petulant, immature abuse of players, many of whom are barely out of their teens. If it's not the players it's the CEO or the coach. I'm frankly amazed that the moderators allow people's characters to be so completely decimated on such a regualr basis. It's cowardly and repugnant.

You're allowed to be critical, but at least attempt to be constructive and balanced, rather than abuse, marginalise and slander people. It's a sh..ty, uninteresting forum at the moment, I hope the players and staff treat it with the contempt it currently deserves

By the by September is six months off

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 12:08 am

Citizen Tiger wrote:This style of thread (and there are plenty of them) have less to do with objectivity and more to do with an unreasonable and quite unnatural levels of personal indignation. This place is a lousy and negative environment after a loss, where all sense of balance and context are sacrificed in the name of petulant, immature abuse of players, many of whom are barely out of their teens. If it's not the players it's the CEO or the coach. I'm frankly amazed that the moderators allow people's characters to be so completely decimated on such a regualr basis. It's cowardly and repugnant.

You're allowed to be critical, but at least attempt to be constructive and balanced, rather than abuse, marginalise and slander people. It's a sh..ty, uninteresting forum at the moment, I hope the players and staff treat it with the contempt it currently deserves

By the by September is six months off
LMAO slander? your having a good laugh. I haven't so far seen anyone in this thread say anything personal towards any player. Its purely performance based to which these guys aren't immuned to. It comes with the territory of being a professional athlete. And being critical of a players performance isn't slander. Give me a break

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Post by 851 » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 12:14 am

Moltzen was crap again,Groat was found out again,all too familiar,we need a proper half,one who does the basic things,take the line on,kick,force line drop outs,try assists,our 7 does none of these,and Sheen's it's your fault
Go hard or go home

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Post by supercoach » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 1:29 am

do you really think sheens is going to flick tim molten from the no7 role. He stuck with johnny morris for about a year. Iam afraid get used to it and it seems his main threat is miller and he seems to be on the nose with the man that counts. He may come good he is not a bad footballer but while he struggles the team struggles, it s that simple

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Post by hybrid_tiger » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 1:33 am

Moltzen is the perfect example of a luxury player.

I dare anyone to find me one game where we were being beaten and he stepped up and helped us turn the tide. Just one.

When we are in an arm wrestle he is nowhere to be seen.

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 1:37 am

hybrid_tiger wrote:Moltzen is the perfect example of a luxury player.

I dare anyone to find me one game where we were being beaten and he stepped up and helped us turn the tide. Just one.

When we are in an arm wrestle he is nowhere to be seen.
A few of his supporters tried to claim that he was the reason behind the comeback against the Warriors last year :crazy

Just because coincidently he came off the bench to replace an injured Lui in the second half

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Post by LCA » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 7:34 am

Given Sheens' preference for Moltzen to be in the team, maybe he shoud do a direct swap with Tom Humble....Moltzen to fullback (where he was better late last year) and Humble to halfback (where he has some experience). Could give the dash and creativity at 7 that is so sorely lacking at the moment.

As for the forwrads?? I would love to know the win/loss ratio when Gareth Ellis doesn't play or comes off injured (not on bench rotation) through a game. His absence really seems to unsettle the forwards' combination and effectiveness. If there was any positives from the debacle last night, I thought BMM again looked like a strong running second rower of the future.

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Post by The Phantom » Sat 17 Mar, 2012 7:44 am

GNR4LIFE wrote:Talk about 2 average first graders. In Groat's case i wouldn't even consider him a first grader.What does he offer? Give me Fifita over Groat anyday of the week. Nothing i've ever seen from him has me excited. If he's the best we got God help us. And what can you say about Moltzen? If he's a halfback i'm Miss Teen USA. I can't believe he's under instructions from Sheens to take a back-seat. Sheens is crazy, but surely he's not that crazy to allow his halfback to be a non-facter week in, week out. Lui might have struggled at times, but at least he played a halfbacks game and was dangerous with the ball in his hands. Moltzen is nothing but a passanger. Give a Miller a shot, surely he couldn't do any worse, and for the good of Wests Tigers don't renew Moltzens contract
e. I don't often agree with GNR4LIFE ,but I think his summation is spot on this time .


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