America - Gun Control

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Yossarian
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Re: America - Gun Control

Unread post by Yossarian » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:15 am

Breitbart cite mostly robbery or home invasion attempts. I didn't see any examples of homocides and certainly no mass shootings prevented or curtailed by armed citizens. Indeed one of the performers in LV noted that several members of their entourage were licensed gun carriers but could not use the guns because the police would assume they were acting maliciously.

If you have enough guns in circulation chances are at various points a "goodie" will shoot a criminal. This of course needs to be balanced against homicides carried out by licensed gun owners against other family members (by design or accidentally), innocent people killed by mistaken identity or misconception and the dozens and dozens of people killed in mass shootings.


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Cultured Bogan
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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:17 am

voice of reason wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 10:50 am
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 9:38 am
Its a cultural issue. We can't comprehend the situation because our society isn't obsessed with guns and we have laws. They don't, so its normal to walk around with a gun.
Absolutely correct, it's a cultural issue.
The only analogy Australians would understand would be if the government said "we're going to ban drinking in Australia". People from other countries would point out how many deaths there are, how much damage it causes to families, how much it costs the nation and how more moderate countries don't have the problems we have with alcohol but do you think Aussies would be happy to change?
Simply swap US guns for Aussie beers to see how strident people are to maintain their culture. We're just as bad, just not with guns.
A very thought provoking post. You could extrapolate the basis of most gun control arguments to cover off what we'd counter an alcohol ban with.

I will say though that there's one significant underlying difference and that is comparing alcohol to an implement which it's express intent is to kill and maim. The same as the argument used by Yanks "oh well the Muslims are driving trucks into crowds now, do we ban trucks?" No, because their prime purpose is transport, not as a weapon. If an IS agent hijacks a tank and kills a bunch of people GTA style, then yeah it is a consistent argument.
It's not cruelty if you inject enough amphetamines...

Fuerza en la adversidad.

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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:19 am

Yossarian wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:15 am
Breitbart cite mostly robbery or home invasion attempts. I didn't see any examples of homocides and certainly no mass shootings prevented or curtailed by armed citizens. Indeed one of the performers in LV noted that several members of their entourage were licensed gun carriers but could not use the guns because the police would assume they were acting maliciously.

If you have enough guns in circulation chances are at various points a "goodie" will shoot a criminal. This of course needs to be balanced against homicides carried out by licensed gun owners against other family members (by design or accidentally), innocent people killed by mistaken identity or misconception and the dozens and dozens of people killed in mass shootings.
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

This has some pretty good overarching statistics.
It's not cruelty if you inject enough amphetamines...

Fuerza en la adversidad.

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Unread post by InBenjiWeTrust » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:21 am

jadtiger wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 10:50 am
Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 9:39 am
tiger05premier wrote:
Wed 04 Oct, 2017 4:58 pm
Just one question I've always wanted to ask.

Where are all these gun loving yanks that buy their guns for protection when some halfwit starts shooting everyone in site.

I don't know anything about their laws on guns but just once i would love to see a story where this loving family man out with his family stopped a massacre by shooting the nutter.
Happens more than you would think ...

http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/ ... zens-2016/
I doubt there is a less credible news source outside of north korea than the one you are quoting.
sadly, our tax paid, ABC and SBS, are good examples of fake news sources, where opinions often replace facts.

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Unread post by tiger05premier » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:22 am

Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 9:39 am
tiger05premier wrote:
Wed 04 Oct, 2017 4:58 pm
Just one question I've always wanted to ask.

Where are all these gun loving yanks that buy their guns for protection when some halfwit starts shooting everyone in site.

I don't know anything about their laws on guns but just once i would love to see a story where this loving family man out with his family stopped a massacre by shooting the nutter.
Happens more than you would think ...

http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/ ... zens-2016/
Cheers Abraham


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Unread post by Abraham » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:29 am

Does anybody else wonder whether this incident was actually as reported...

i.e. a retired accountant in his mid-60's, extremely wealthy, and with literally zero criminal record, would just decide to purchase 20 + weapons and shoot out of his hotel window in vegas, then kill himself before police could get to him?

Skepticism is probably a healthy position to take in alot of these instances.

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Unread post by Geo. » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:51 am

No problem with the right to bear Arms..

Big problem with nut cases able to purchase them with the morning cornflakes...
Ivan's Laws

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3. Be the player your teammates want to play with..

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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:53 am

Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:29 am
Does anybody else wonder whether this incident was actually as reported...

i.e. a retired accountant in his mid-60's, extremely wealthy, and with literally zero criminal record, would just decide to purchase 20 + weapons and shoot out of his hotel window in vegas, then kill himself before police could get to him?

Skepticism is probably a healthy position to take in alot of these instances.
Scepticism is fair enough, some of these ridiculous conspiracy theories floating around are just nonsense though.

Just because the bloke is rich and hasn't committed crime before it does not mean he is immune to snapping and wiping a whole bunch of people out. Could have easily had unresolved mental health problems as many don't seek help.

Elliot Rodger grew up affluent and never committed a crime before going on a rampage. Only after his mental health issues sprung to light.
It's not cruelty if you inject enough amphetamines...

Fuerza en la adversidad.

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Unread post by GNR4LIFE » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:55 am

jadtiger wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 10:50 am
Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 9:39 am
tiger05premier wrote:
Wed 04 Oct, 2017 4:58 pm
Just one question I've always wanted to ask.

Where are all these gun loving yanks that buy their guns for protection when some halfwit starts shooting everyone in site.

I don't know anything about their laws on guns but just once i would love to see a story where this loving family man out with his family stopped a massacre by shooting the nutter.
Happens more than you would think ...

http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/ ... zens-2016/
I doubt there is a less credible news source outside of north korea than the one you are quoting.
Fox Noise goes close.

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Unread post by Abraham » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:41 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:53 am
Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:29 am
Does anybody else wonder whether this incident was actually as reported...

i.e. a retired accountant in his mid-60's, extremely wealthy, and with literally zero criminal record, would just decide to purchase 20 + weapons and shoot out of his hotel window in vegas, then kill himself before police could get to him?

Skepticism is probably a healthy position to take in alot of these instances.
Scepticism is fair enough, some of these ridiculous conspiracy theories floating around are just nonsense though.

Just because the bloke is rich and hasn't committed crime before it does not mean he is immune to snapping and wiping a whole bunch of people out. Could have easily had unresolved mental health problems as many don't seek help.

Elliot Rodger grew up affluent and never committed a crime before going on a rampage. Only after his mental health issues sprung to light.
I'm not citing Alex Jones and his Bolshevik theories here... just some inconsistencies with the official version of events, and some coincidences that make me think this bloke was the perfect fall guy.

- I have seen videos of gun fire coming from the 4th floor of the hotel. Could be something other than gun fire, but it is in perfect synch with the sound of the gun fire.
- People staying at other hotels reporting seeing simultaneous shooting incidents at those hotels, which have gained no media coverage and suggest involvement of multiple shooters. Again, not believing them without evidence, but definitely strange.
- I was sent pictures of the crime scene, and the now dead gunman is laying next to a magnum handgun he supposedly used to shoot himself with. Now a magnum would have practically exploded his head, but this guy's head was perfectly intact except for some blood. So how was he shot, since it couldn't have been with the handgun laying next to him?

Just some observations that make me quietly skeptical in the absence of definitive proof one way or the other.

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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:53 pm

Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:41 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:53 am
Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:29 am
Does anybody else wonder whether this incident was actually as reported...

i.e. a retired accountant in his mid-60's, extremely wealthy, and with literally zero criminal record, would just decide to purchase 20 + weapons and shoot out of his hotel window in vegas, then kill himself before police could get to him?

Skepticism is probably a healthy position to take in alot of these instances.
Scepticism is fair enough, some of these ridiculous conspiracy theories floating around are just nonsense though.

Just because the bloke is rich and hasn't committed crime before it does not mean he is immune to snapping and wiping a whole bunch of people out. Could have easily had unresolved mental health problems as many don't seek help.

Elliot Rodger grew up affluent and never committed a crime before going on a rampage. Only after his mental health issues sprung to light.
I'm not citing Alex Jones and his Bolshevik theories here... just some inconsistencies with the official version of events, and some coincidences that make me think this bloke was the perfect fall guy.

- I have seen videos of gun fire coming from the 4th floor of the hotel. Could be something other than gun fire, but it is in perfect synch with the sound of the gun fire.
- People staying at other hotels reporting seeing simultaneous shooting incidents at those hotels, which have gained no media coverage and suggest involvement of multiple shooters. Again, not believing them without evidence, but definitely strange.
- I was sent pictures of the crime scene, and the now dead gunman is laying next to a magnum handgun he supposedly used to shoot himself with. Now a magnum would have practically exploded his head, but this guy's head was perfectly intact except for some blood. So how was he shot, since it couldn't have been with the handgun laying next to him?

Just some observations that make me quietly skeptical in the absence of definitive proof one way or the other.
Yeah well given they're only still piecing it together so it may take time for the dots to join. A bit early to be calling BS on the events when they haven't been fully determined.
It's not cruelty if you inject enough amphetamines...

Fuerza en la adversidad.

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Unread post by Abraham » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:58 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:53 pm
Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:41 pm
I'm not citing Alex Jones and his Bolshevik theories here... just some inconsistencies with the official version of events, and some coincidences that make me think this bloke was the perfect fall guy.

- I have seen videos of gun fire coming from the 4th floor of the hotel. Could be something other than gun fire, but it is in perfect synch with the sound of the gun fire.
- People staying at other hotels reporting seeing simultaneous shooting incidents at those hotels, which have gained no media coverage and suggest involvement of multiple shooters. Again, not believing them without evidence, but definitely strange.
- I was sent pictures of the crime scene, and the now dead gunman is laying next to a magnum handgun he supposedly used to shoot himself with. Now a magnum would have practically exploded his head, but this guy's head was perfectly intact except for some blood. So how was he shot, since it couldn't have been with the handgun laying next to him?

Just some observations that make me quietly skeptical in the absence of definitive proof one way or the other.
Yeah well given they're only still piecing it together so it may take time for the dots to join. A bit early to be calling BS on the events when they haven't been fully determined.
Not calling BS ... just skeptical at this stage.

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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 1:12 pm

Fair enough.
It's not cruelty if you inject enough amphetamines...

Fuerza en la adversidad.

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Unread post by innsaneink » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 1:13 pm

Looks like enclosed windows from ground floor to the top...was there a broken window on the 4th floor?
Ive seen the vids, I really see nothing other than someones imagination

As for it sounding like some shots are closer than others, I think the fact he shot from two windows, one at a different angle (around a almost 90' corner) might have something to do with the acoustics

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Unread post by Spartan117 » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 1:49 pm

We have a good thing here in Aus,

In general I wouldn't want to bring up a family anywhere else.

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Unread post by tsjonathan » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 3:20 pm

Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:58 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:53 pm
Abraham wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 12:41 pm
I'm not citing Alex Jones and his Bolshevik theories here... just some inconsistencies with the official version of events, and some coincidences that make me think this bloke was the perfect fall guy.

- I have seen videos of gun fire coming from the 4th floor of the hotel. Could be something other than gun fire, but it is in perfect synch with the sound of the gun fire.
- People staying at other hotels reporting seeing simultaneous shooting incidents at those hotels, which have gained no media coverage and suggest involvement of multiple shooters. Again, not believing them without evidence, but definitely strange.
- I was sent pictures of the crime scene, and the now dead gunman is laying next to a magnum handgun he supposedly used to shoot himself with. Now a magnum would have practically exploded his head, but this guy's head was perfectly intact except for some blood. So how was he shot, since it couldn't have been with the handgun laying next to him?

Just some observations that make me quietly skeptical in the absence of definitive proof one way or the other.
Yeah well given they're only still piecing it together so it may take time for the dots to join. A bit early to be calling BS on the events when they haven't been fully determined.
Not calling BS ... just skeptical at this stage.
im quite convinced sandy hook was a fake
Last edited by tsjonathan on Thu 05 Oct, 2017 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by voice of reason » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 3:24 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:17 am
A very thought provoking post. You could extrapolate the basis of most gun control arguments to cover off what we'd counter an alcohol ban with. I will say though that there's one significant underlying difference and that is comparing alcohol to an implement which it's express intent is to kill and maim.
Agreed. Of course it wasn't meant to compare guns and alcohol as equivalent, more so to relate how ingrained culture can make seemingly rational decisions difficult or impossible.
As you say, the arguments would be nearly identical "You can't take our alcohol, it's been part of our culture since the first fleet!"
America is a strange place - god fearing, scared and paranoid people who can buy a military weapon at the local department store. What could possibly go wrong?
Suffering supporter since 1967

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Unread post by tsjonathan » Thu 05 Oct, 2017 3:36 pm

voice of reason wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 3:24 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Thu 05 Oct, 2017 11:17 am
A very thought provoking post. You could extrapolate the basis of most gun control arguments to cover off what we'd counter an alcohol ban with. I will say though that there's one significant underlying difference and that is comparing alcohol to an implement which it's express intent is to kill and maim.
Agreed. Of course it wasn't meant to compare guns and alcohol as equivalent, more so to relate how ingrained culture can make seemingly rational decisions difficult or impossible.
As you say, the arguments would be nearly identical "You can't take our alcohol, it's been part of our culture since the first fleet!"
America is a strange place - god fearing, scared and paranoid people who can buy a military weapon at the local department store. What could possibly go wrong?
we're lucky generally all Australians think along the same lines.

American's are not God fearing though. My other side of the family won't shut the hell up about Jesus.

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