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Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 4:10 pm
by Munk
Having access to weapons is only half the problem.
Had this guy not possessed any firearms, would he still have committed this atrocity? Id suggest he would have found a way. He seemed hell bent on maximum destruction of human lives that evening and we need to know why.

These people always find a way, think the attack in Nice with the lorry and the London attackers with their knives. Disarm the population and only the bad guys will be armed. Its like putting up a fence around your yard, it only keeps the honest people out.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 4:55 pm
by formerguest
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 4:10 pm
Having access to weapons is only half the problem.
Had this guy not possessed any firearms, would he still have committed this atrocity? Id suggest he would have found a way. He seemed hell bent on maximum destruction of human lives that evening and we need to know why.

These people always find a way, think the attack in Nice with the lorry and the London attackers with their knives. Disarm the population and only the bad guys will be armed. Its like putting up a fence around your yard, it only keeps the honest people out.
Happy to be disarmed. I gave up my weapons, being semiautomatic and lever action ones post Port Arthur, so half the problem is gone from my side. Having a weapon in my hands with which I can put eleven slugs in less than that amount of seconds into an area half the size of your head from afar is not for someone not in battle nor living in a jungle or savannah area. Farmers and professional hunters may be exceptions and I doubt many would object.

I don't have a fence at the front of my house for similar reasons, there is no need. If however there was any reason that it was a potentially danger to life and limb, the government has the obligation to make me place a suitable one there to protect the general public, even if for whatever reason I as the individual don't want to. It is the same in the US and as it is a public safety issue, weapons should be treated in a somewhat similar way.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 5:03 pm
by cochise
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:43 am
voice of reason wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:32 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:50 am
I agree that number is terrible but simply banning guns would do little to decrease that number in my opinion as a large portion of those deaths are crime related through the projects and criminals can always get guns if they want them.
You're entitled to your opinion but it isn't logical. You believe that because 'criminals can always get guns' that we should simply keep it legal for them. With respect, it's a non-sensical argument that would be at home coming from the head of the NRA. At the moment, criminals can simply walk into Walmart and buy that military rifle or handgun they want. You can even have a mental illness and do the same thing. It is ridiculous that an intelligent society would think this is acceptable.
America is a basket case and the problem began many years ago. That doesn't mean you don't at least try to fix it and the start is better gun control. Reports show that making it slightly harder to commit a crime makes a dramatic difference to the amount of crime (can't recall where I saw it but it surfaced this week after the shootings). Make it 'slightly' more difficult to get firearms and I have no doubt that eventually there will be a reduction in gun related deaths.
The problem is it will take years to see the effects because of the amount of guns already in circulation and after a week the NRA will say 'look, it didn't work, throw out those gun laws'.
Here comes the emotion.
Federal background checks are already in place for criminals and mentail illness sufferers. You are dead wrong. America is not a basket case at all. Have you ever been there? Reports surfaced this week after the shootings did they? How reactionist. Proves the point.

BTW Yossarian America is 4th in the OECD rankings. Your claim is factually wrong. People spread more lies on this issue than any other.
You know about the Federal background checks, which also means you should know about the gunshow and private party seller loopholes that exist? They do not even have to ask for identification from the purchaser!

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 5:29 pm
by Yossarian
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 4:10 pm
Having access to weapons is only half the problem.
Had this guy not possessed any firearms, would he still have committed this atrocity? Id suggest he would have found a way. He seemed hell bent on maximum destruction of human lives that evening and we need to know why.

These people always find a way, think the attack in Nice with the lorry and the London attackers with their knives. Disarm the population and only the bad guys will be armed. Its like putting up a fence around your yard, it only keeps the honest people out.
I don't know - it's just my opinion but I think the guns are a massive part of the appeal for these guys. I really doubt he would have carried out a mass stabbing or drive a truck into people.

Nevada has some of the loosest gun laws in the US and yet nobody was able or willing to return fire on that nutter. I'm sorry but I don't buy that reasoning. I know you mean more regular situations than Las Vegas (say a home invasion) but I'm not convinced more guns = safer communities.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 6:23 pm
by cochise
Yossarian wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 5:29 pm
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 4:10 pm
Having access to weapons is only half the problem.
Had this guy not possessed any firearms, would he still have committed this atrocity? Id suggest he would have found a way. He seemed hell bent on maximum destruction of human lives that evening and we need to know why.

These people always find a way, think the attack in Nice with the lorry and the London attackers with their knives. Disarm the population and only the bad guys will be armed. Its like putting up a fence around your yard, it only keeps the honest people out.
I don't know - it's just my opinion but I think the guns are a massive part of the appeal for these guys. I really doubt he would have carried out a mass stabbing or drive a truck into people.

Nevada has some of the loosest gun laws in the US and yet nobody was able or willing to return fire on that nutter. I'm sorry but I don't buy that reasoning. I know you mean more regular situations than Las Vegas (say a home invasion) but I'm not convinced more guns = safer communities.
They don't even make the people carrying them safer a study in 2009 found you are 4.5 times more likely to be shot when carrying a gun and 4.2 times more likely to be killed when compared to unarmed people.

The self defense claims are rubbish too, in 2012 there were 1.2 million violent crimes, so that is 1.2 million opportunities for someone to act in self defense, there were 259 gun deaths that were deemed self defense. 259 deaths out of 12,765 were because of self defense.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 6:27 pm
by voice of reason
cochise wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 5:03 pm
You know about the Federal background checks, which also means you should know about the gunshow and private party seller loopholes that exist? They do not even have to ask for identification from the purchaser!
Exactly. Obama tried to introduce laws to prevent mentally ill people from obtaining guns through private sale and it was defeated. For sales from private sellers it's pretty much open slather.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 6:41 pm
by cochise
voice of reason wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 6:27 pm
cochise wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 5:03 pm
You know about the Federal background checks, which also means you should know about the gunshow and private party seller loopholes that exist? They do not even have to ask for identification from the purchaser!
Exactly. Obama tried to introduce laws to prevent mentally ill people from obtaining guns through private sale and it was defeated. For sales from private sellers it's pretty much open slather.
There have been bills introduce to close the loophole in 7 consecutive congresses, they have all been defeated.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:46 pm
by Abraham
innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:51 pm
The fact there's no broken windows on Level 4 would suggest your foil hats on too tight.
You're not as smart as you like to think you are.
Now... Back to your crayons and more conspiracies
Did you go back and read what i actually wrote?

I said there is a video that appears to show muzzle flash from the 4th floor that is in synch with the sound of the gun fire. Anybody can go online and view the video for themself.

I didnt say its proof of a second shooter, i didnt even say its proof of secondary gunfire, in fact i made it clear that i dont know. Just that there are a number of alternative possibilities that are worth discussing.

You dont have to smash open the window to shoot out of it, as you have been insinuating. Alot of hotels in vegas, including the Mandalay Bay, have ventilation strips as the windows cant be opened. They let fresh air into the room, and a gun barrel would easily fit through a ventilation strip, meaning you don't have to smash anything to shoot into the street from inside the hotel.

Am i saying this is what happened? No. Just that it pays to keep an open mind and not dismiss things without looking into them further.

You seem to be going off half cocked about something you clearly have no clue about, and getting your panties in a knot because i raised the issue of some reported occurances that the media havnt mentioned.

Its a forum, the whole point is for people to discuss their opinions. It seems you cant do that without becoming snarky and looking for attention. Go figure.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 5:57 am
by MG1962
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:28 pm

I'm sure you thought this was an intelligent response when you wrote it.

Just didn't come out that way when you pressed 'submit'.
Pot meet kettle

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 8:16 am
by innsaneink
Abraham wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:46 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:51 pm
The fact there's no broken windows on Level 4 would suggest your foil hats on too tight.
You're not as smart as you like to think you are.
Now... Back to your crayons and more conspiracies
Did you go back and read what i actually wrote?

I said there is a video that appears to show muzzle flash from the 4th floor that is in synch with the sound of the gun fire. Anybody can go online and view the video for themself.

I didnt say its proof of a second shooter, i didnt even say its proof of secondary gunfire, in fact i made it clear that i dont know. Just that there are a number of alternative possibilities that are worth discussing.

You dont have to smash open the window to shoot out of it, as you have been insinuating. Alot of hotels in vegas, including the Mandalay Bay, have ventilation strips as the windows cant be opened. They let fresh air into the room, and a gun barrel would easily fit through a ventilation strip, meaning you don't have to smash anything to shoot into the street from inside the hotel.

Am i saying this is what happened? No. Just that it pays to keep an open mind and not dismiss things without looking into them further.

You seem to be going off half cocked about something you clearly have no clue about, and getting your panties in a knot because i raised the issue of some reported occurances that the media havnt mentioned.

Its a forum, the whole point is for people to discuss their opinions. It seems you cant do that without becoming snarky and looking for attention. Go figure.
LOL
cool story.
Got any more?

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 9:44 am
by goldcoast tiger
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:29 pm
Munk wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:21 pm
goldcoast tiger wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:29 pm
The amazing thing though , is that the Yank gun lovers keep saying that they need guns to be safe.
Well , where was the John Wayne clones when the poo hit the fan, ( in any of these attacks)?
You'd think that there'd be hundreds of law abiding citizens streaming into the streets and defending anyone. Maybe it's all talk on their part.
On most occasions like this they must be hiding under the bed.
When the chance is there to do something good with their toys, they've run home to mummy
Typical Americans
There are thousands of documented cases every year in America where john citizen foils a robbery or an incident due to the fact he is carrying.
Americas shame isnt gun ownership, it is lack of care for the mentally ill.
The Las Vegas shooter had no recorded mental health issues as far as I know. He was however able to buy 33 guns in the last 12 months. Even by American standards that's ridiculous.

I have no idea whether your claim of thousands of those incidents is true. I do know that gun homicide statistics in the USA are miles over the per capita rates in other western countries. I'd dare say there are many examples of nervous Joe Citizens killing innocent parties and family member. Or themselves whether by accident or design.
Maybe in one on one confrontations, one of the gun toting idiots saved hislife, but in any of the massacres that we've seen there, I don't recall any of the gun lovers doing anything positive about the situation.
How many of those cases was one druggie and another, how many were in drug wars , crime battles etc?

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 1:33 pm
by Munk
Yep it would have been great to see people firing from the crowd into the Mandalay hotel indiscriminantly. Have you been watching 80's action movies recently?

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 1:44 pm
by swag tiger
There are around 74,000 gun related injuries a year in America and around 34,000 resulted in death.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 6:44 pm
by Harvey
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:20 pm
willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:56 pm

Regarding the bump stock and recoil, it's far from impossible, in fact it's quite easy. The .223 calibre assault rifles are pussy cats to shoot. I've fired a H&K G36 among other assault rifles and the recoil is minimal. Given he had 22,000 people to aim at all he needed to do was point in the direction of the crowd and the bullets will do the rest, 500 metres is no problem for a .223 when your target is the size of a football field.
I've owned a .223 for years, among others, and so I am more than familiar with the caliber.

I am not talking about him being able to hit people, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I am talking about being able to fire constantly for 10 minutes only stopping to change magazine.

Have you shot a .223 recoiling against your shoulder 400 times per minute, for 10 minutes? Because that's what i am talking about.
Shoulder pads? Some other protection? Would that help with the recoil?

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 7:02 pm
by willow
Harvey wrote:
Sun 08 Oct, 2017 6:44 pm
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:20 pm
willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:56 pm

Regarding the bump stock and recoil, it's far from impossible, in fact it's quite easy. The .223 calibre assault rifles are pussy cats to shoot. I've fired a H&K G36 among other assault rifles and the recoil is minimal. Given he had 22,000 people to aim at all he needed to do was point in the direction of the crowd and the bullets will do the rest, 500 metres is no problem for a .223 when your target is the size of a football field.
I've owned a .223 for years, among others, and so I am more than familiar with the caliber.

I am not talking about him being able to hit people, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I am talking about being able to fire constantly for 10 minutes only stopping to change magazine.

Have you shot a .223 recoiling against your shoulder 400 times per minute, for 10 minutes? Because that's what i am talking about.
Shoulder pads? Some other protection? Would that help with the recoil?
The tripod would have helped somewhat, I've used them in tactical rifle comps and it's extra weight suspending the rifle, so there's less felt recoil hitting your shoulder. Again though, I find the .223 VERY mild to shoot. More news has filtered out of what was found in his hotel room, including notes regarding ballistic drop for the distance he was shooting at. Worrying about recoil would have been the least of his problems IMO, lock the rifle into the tripod, pick his field of fire, brace one hand and shoulder on the rifle, the other on the tripod for support, lean forwards into the tripod and pull the trigger.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 8:18 pm
by Pawsandclaws
The thing about using a rifle, is that someone always has one which is more powerful and can outrange you.

This one has a range of 13 nautical miles (but probably more now with improved munitions) and has a rate of fire between sixteen to twenty shells per minute.


Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Sun 08 Oct, 2017 10:07 pm
by goldcoast tiger
Munk wrote:
Sun 08 Oct, 2017 1:33 pm
Yep it would have been great to see people firing from the crowd into the Mandalay hotel indiscriminantly. Have you been watching 80's action movies recently?

Of course it would be stupid. But it's those fools who can't live without a 50 calibre in the house in case they are invaded who say they are safer with guns.
Just typical idiotic American BS.
Maybe the authorities should just get all the down South Good ol Boys have a day when they all go hunting for each other. At least we'd get rid of a lot of the problem in one go.
They use a document that was written an age ago, to say what should be allowed in the 21st century, ALL constitutions should be reviewed every 25 years, so that rules are made to suit the world as it is now.
Those people who wrote their constitution had no idea what they were doing. Not one of them had even seen a mobile phone , let alone an automatic assault rifle.
Still , that's America for you.

Re: America - Gun Control

Posted: Mon 09 Oct, 2017 12:51 am
by Byron Bay Fan
I have had many encounters with snakes at very close range and I never felt the necessity of a gun. I don't mind the battle with equal resources - famous last words.