Climate Change Thread.

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Earl
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Re: Climate Change Thread.

Unread post by Earl » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 9:15 am

On the flip side I think that we drive cars way too much and just consume too much oil. This mightn't be that bad but there is currently a very low risk that we may be impacting our climate. Even though it is a very low risk I think a good idea is to start moving away from our huge use of cars.

I also think that we have local environmental concerns with our usage of cars in that traffic can be really bad.

On top of that we should be trying to minimise our use of electricity and move to sustainable sources simply because that appears to be the better long term approach.

This all needs though to be put into a policy context for AGW. I am really against trying to force poorer countries to adapt policies that are really for people like myself who are interested in creating a better society from an environmental perspective. My concerns are the concerns of some of the world's rich elite. We are all part of the rich elite. Some care about the environment but some don't. I think forcing the ones that don't care is fine but forcing people who are poor and need energy to live and better their lives is to me morally wrong.


InBenjiWeTrust
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Unread post by InBenjiWeTrust » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:12 am

quote, Thomas Sowell
"Wherever you get enough far left people in power, you can find a similar willingness to force everyone into collectivist conformity at all costs."

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Unread post by Earl » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:25 am

InBenjiWeTrust wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:12 am
quote, Thomas Sowell
"Wherever you get enough far left people in power, you can find a similar willingness to force everyone into collectivist conformity at all costs."
I don't see this as a leftist conspiracy. I think the science is hard to understand and some people have turned this into a non-scientific debate.

I mentioned Piers Corbyn earlier. He is a leftist. He thinks it's a load of palava.

I think the political will power from the side who want this to be 100% confirmed science is really strong. The average person is uneducated on the topic and is fed lines that make out that it's as factual as 1+1 =2.

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Unread post by Byron Bay Fan » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:26 am

Earl, we are now having super typhoons that we never had before and they are being caused by the surface of the ocean warming up. We had 300 km winds somewhere recently, I have never heard of anything like that speed in my lifetime.

Check here all the records being broken recently: https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/ ... 642948001/

Explain how my analogy concerning my fish pond is blatantly incorrect.
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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:56 am

Earl wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 9:09 am
You need to think in terms of the effects of various actions and the verifiable risk of the AGW concerns occurring.

The real problem is and this is reality the models are running hot. Statistically they are close to being invalidated (outside of the range of statistical significance - i.e. outside the 5%-95% range and on the downside) and the data has been amended multiple times to try and get the result that is politically palatable which is that we are heading for disaster.

I think we can safely state now that we are not heading for disaster. The facts that we have in my opinion appear to point out that the likelihood of the extreme events occurring are basically non-existent.

I remember also studying peak oil. We were meant to be out of oil by the year 2000 or so. Of course it didn't happen.
Yeah we're not in danger of average global temperatures rising...

...Except when Glenbrook becomes the coastline. There's some pretty big chunks of frozen water at the top and bottom of the planet that probably will cause a bit of mischief if they melt. I'm no climate scientist but I'm pretty sure they require temperatures to stay low in order to stay frozen.

Granted the science isn't totally settled, even I concede that, but do we really want to sit around on our hands on the off chance that it won't eventuate?
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Geo.
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Unread post by Geo. » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 11:06 am

I'ts hot today..

The Earth has a natural cycle..that is fact...Human activity has contributed to fastening that cycle...

Over to you Earl..
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Geo nailed it...

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Unread post by kevinmcguiness » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 11:34 am

wasn't climate change all made up? Thought i read it or heard it somewhere

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Unread post by TrueTiger » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:17 pm

Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:26 am
Earl, we are now having super typhoons that we never had before and they are being caused by the surface of the ocean warming up. We had 300 km winds somewhere recently, I have never heard of anything like that speed in my lifetime.

Check here all the records being broken recently: https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/ ... 642948001/

Explain how my analogy concerning my fish pond is blatantly incorrect.
The planet EARTH is older than the human race itself...Im pretty sure millions of years ago she had dramatic temperature and weather conditions come over her..she has survived..the ice age comes to mind,records dont go back far enough to see how dramatically things have changed,granted the pollution levels are obviously much higher than years and years ago because of our technology and inventions over the years...how about when volcanoes erupt at any given point that have been dormant for hundreds of years,spewing out poisonous gases and ash into the atmosphere,is that an unnatural occurance or is it part of the earths makeup and nature doing its thing..Bali at the moment and any number of volcanoes that are dormant could spring up and keep spewing for weeks or months,how does that impact our atmospere and what does it contribute to climate change...just asking as Im no scientist... :o
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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:28 pm

TrueTiger wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:17 pm
Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:26 am
Earl, we are now having super typhoons that we never had before and they are being caused by the surface of the ocean warming up. We had 300 km winds somewhere recently, I have never heard of anything like that speed in my lifetime.

Check here all the records being broken recently: https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/ ... 642948001/

Explain how my analogy concerning my fish pond is blatantly incorrect.
The planet EARTH is older than the human race itself...Im pretty sure millions of years ago she had dramatic temperature and weather conditions come over her..she has survived..the ice age comes to mind,records dont go back far enough to see how dramatically things have changed,granted the pollution levels are obviously much higher than years and years ago because of our technology and inventions over the years...how about when volcanoes erupt at any given point that have been dormant for hundreds of years,spewing out poisonous gases and ash into the atmosphere,is that an unnatural occurance or is it part of the earths makeup and nature doing its thing..Bali at the moment and any number of volcanoes that are dormant could spring up and keep spewing for weeks or months,how does that impact our atmospere and what does it contribute to climate change...just asking as Im no scientist... :o
That's true in a manner of speaking. Many of the gasses and the like are naturally occuring however and breakdown quicker. Synthetic Refrigerants for example have a far higher GWP compared to natural refrigerants (CO2, NH3 and Hydrocarbons,) in that 1kg of certain refrigerants are equivalent to 3,770 times that of 1kg of CO2. These sorts of gasses take longer to breakdown and contribute more that natural greenhouse gasses because they are synthetic compounds. This along with other man made emissions are compounding an already natural process.

The last big step taken was control on Chlorofluorocarbons because it was breaking the ozone down. They ban them and low and behold the ozone recovers, with first signs only being recognised last year. Phase down and phase out of CFC's started in 1980!
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Unread post by Abraham » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:31 pm

Looking after the environment is itself a noble cause.

But when these activists try to hoodwink people into paying more taxes and lowering their quality of life because of unsubstantiated claims that Australians have any power over the world-wide climate fluctuations, then people don't take this seriously.

The fact is Australia is responsible for just over 1% of world-wide carbon emissions, so even if it were true that carbon impacted the climate, Australia's role here is so minuscule that it really makes no difference what we do.

Heck, we could double our emissions, and it would have no tangible impact on anything.

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Unread post by hammertime » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:37 pm

Abraham wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:31 pm
Looking after the environment is itself a noble cause.

But when these activists try to hoodwink people into paying more taxes and lowering their quality of life because of unsubstantiated claims that Australians have any power over the world-wide climate fluctuations, then people don't take this seriously.

The fact is Australia is responsible for just over 1% of world-wide carbon emissions, so even if it were true that carbon impacted the climate, Australia's role here is so minuscule that it really makes no difference what we do.

Heck, we could double our emissions, and it would have no tangible impact on anything.
Using the 'that guy killed 10, we only killed 1' argument. Don't look at us, look at them. Way to lead and contribute to our global society mate.

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Unread post by Earl » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 1:19 pm

Geo. wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 11:06 am
I'ts hot today..

The Earth has a natural cycle..that is fact...Human activity has contributed to fastening that cycle...

Over to you Earl..
This is why it's really hard to state categorically something is happening. Climate has changed heaps. The guy who was one of the key proponents of the theory not long before stating the world was heating up was stating we were heading for an ice age.

It's what you call confounding variables. So we know the Earth is warming up and we know we've put a whole bunch of CO2 into the atmosphere however we don't know that the 2 instances are related. We do know that all things being equal extra CO2 in the atmosphere should lead to increased temperatures but the increase isn't known and all things aren't equal.

We don't know for sure that human activity has contributed to fastening that cycle.

The world has been heating up long before CO2 would have influenced anything.

A more factual statement would be something like "we don't really know if the additional CO2 and other gases (methane for instance) that humans are producing or contributing to producing are having an effect on the temperature that has been increasing for a couple of 100 years within normal ranges but nonetheless increasing. As it is increasing though maybe we should take some steps to limit the potential impact that we may be having on the Earth's climate. In doing this though we shouldn't be subjecting people who are currently living in poverty to remaining in poverty as we are not going to let them develop their countries via the use of cheap energy".
Last edited by Earl on Thu 30 Nov, 2017 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Balmain Boy » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 1:20 pm

hammertime wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:37 pm
Abraham wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:31 pm
Looking after the environment is itself a noble cause.

But when these activists try to hoodwink people into paying more taxes and lowering their quality of life because of unsubstantiated claims that Australians have any power over the world-wide climate fluctuations, then people don't take this seriously.

The fact is Australia is responsible for just over 1% of world-wide carbon emissions, so even if it were true that carbon impacted the climate, Australia's role here is so minuscule that it really makes no difference what we do.

Heck, we could double our emissions, and it would have no tangible impact on anything.
Using the 'that guy killed 10, we only killed 1' argument. Don't look at us, look at them. Way to lead and contribute to our global society mate.
yeah, that's a pretty poor pov abraham! everyone needs to do their bit! the more countries that do the right thing the more it puts pressure on those who aren't to change their ways.

and you're not going to suggest the carbon tax made any sort of difference to the bank balance of everyday aussies are you? all that liberal scaremongering for what amounted to very little change. energy prices have almost doubled since it was abolished in any case!

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Unread post by MG1962 » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 1:28 pm

TrueTiger wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:17 pm
.how about when volcanoes erupt at any given point that have been dormant for hundreds of years,spewing out poisonous gases and ash into the atmosphere,is that an unnatural occurance or is it part of the earths makeup and nature doing its thing..Bali at the moment and any number of volcanoes that are dormant could spring up and keep spewing for weeks or months,how does that impact our atmospere and what does it contribute to climate change...just asking as Im no scientist... :o
Typically volcanic activity will cause a lowering of temperatures. In historical times two major eruptions in 1814 and 1815 lead to the year with no summer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

On a smaller scale the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa lowered average global temperature by a degree or so.

There are other events like a mantle plume rupturing the surface would lead to widespread warming due to excessive carbon and water vapor release. Mind you if that happened, climate would be the least of our worries lol

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Unread post by Abraham » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 3:52 pm

hammertime wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:37 pm
Using the 'that guy killed 10, we only killed 1' argument. Don't look at us, look at them. Way to lead and contribute to our global society mate.
Balmain Boy wrote:
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 1:20 pm
yeah, that's a pretty poor pov abraham! everyone needs to do their bit! the more countries that do the right thing the more it puts pressure on those who aren't to change their ways.

and you're not going to suggest the carbon tax made any sort of difference to the bank balance of everyday aussies are you? all that liberal scaremongering for what amounted to very little change. energy prices have almost doubled since it was abolished in any case!

Yes, lets ruin our already struggling economy and standard of living so we can virtue signal to everyone else about what great global citizens we are.

Do we get brownie points in greeny heaven?

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Unread post by Cultured Bogan » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 4:08 pm

Better yet, lets do nothing and our kids will have no standard of living.
I swing like hell but know full well that I won't win the fight, but big man I'm the beta male that's gonna ruin your night...

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Unread post by Harvey » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 4:37 pm

We need to reduce our CO2 footprint & stop burning fossil fuels to generate power. Who's going to start the petition to invest in nuclear power that will reduce emissions?

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Unread post by formerguest » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 4:46 pm

Stuff the people in developing countries, people here are struggling to fit their new boats in the yards of their McMansions or $2m terraces and tenants of their fourth or so rental property refuse to yield some yard space for them to store it, whilst demanding the gutters that have leaked for months be replaced.

The well off in the west should be able to watch the poor of the world suffer whilst they purchase as many firearms as they like and take out trucks and school run 4x4's out on their free weekends to utilise tax advantages, along with the extra dollars taken from the pockets of our workers that serve them on the sabbath.

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