Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

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hammertime
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Re: Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

Post by hammertime » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 6:34 am

formerguest wrote:
Wed 25 Oct, 2017 11:17 pm
Pawsandclaws wrote:
Wed 25 Oct, 2017 9:45 pm
Michaela Cash just threw her senior media advisor under the bus after denying five times to the Senate Estimates Committee that she or her office informed the media about the raid. There are sources this senior media advisor who admitted to telling the press about the raid used to work with the media adviser in the ROC in Dennis Napthines' Office.

Apparently Cash was requested to have her COS secure all PCs, Laptops, mobiles etc for investigation (raid ;)). She refused.
Question time for parliament was in the background on Sky for me this arvo and the questions indicated that they already knew where the culprit worked.

This whole never ending witch hunt episode is just another example of the second most incompetent federal government that I can recall, with the previous iteration with Abbott the worst, yet he is still somewhat in control and .......... things up left right and centre.
Abbott was the worst government? You must be pretty young if you can't remember Rudd/Gillard.


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Post by Byron Bay Fan » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 7:49 am

hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 6:34 am
formerguest wrote:
Wed 25 Oct, 2017 11:17 pm
Pawsandclaws wrote:
Wed 25 Oct, 2017 9:45 pm
Michaela Cash just threw her senior media advisor under the bus after denying five times to the Senate Estimates Committee that she or her office informed the media about the raid. There are sources this senior media advisor who admitted to telling the press about the raid used to work with the media adviser in the ROC in Dennis Napthines' Office.

Apparently Cash was requested to have her COS secure all PCs, Laptops, mobiles etc for investigation (raid ;)). She refused.
Question time for parliament was in the background on Sky for me this arvo and the questions indicated that they already knew where the culprit worked.

This whole never ending witch hunt episode is just another example of the second most incompetent federal government that I can recall, with the previous iteration with Abbott the worst, yet he is still somewhat in control and .......... things up left right and centre.
Abbott was the worst government? You must be pretty young if you can't remember Rudd/Gillard.
Gillard got more legislation through then even John Howard, in spite of sabotaging and extremely nasty tactics by Abbott, as well as only having a marriage of convenience with Greens and Tony Windsor, Oakenshot and wilkie was it. Abbot and Turnbull have majorities in the upper house so should have been in a much stronger position than Gillard. She pulled of miracles considering.
Malcolm Knox: What has happened this week is a pity for the Tigers, a pity for Jason Taylor and a pity for Robbie Farah, who had achieved more than the Big Four put together but was somehow turned into collateral damage. (SMH 25-26 March, 2017)

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Post by Byron Bay Fan » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 7:55 am

Abbot is competing with Donald Trump to be biggest idiots of the 21C in politics. Duterte still has about 75% approval rating is spite of slowly knocking off his own population, he stated rationale is unfortunately we breed too many people anyway so can easily replace them. Duterte's approval figures are what Trump and Abbott would kill for. Duterte's govt recently funded the Human Rights Commission with Peso 1,000 budget for the entire year, that is 25 Aussie Dollars - this is the same mob who gave Abbot hell over asylum seekers in Oz. Talking about a revolution!
Malcolm Knox: What has happened this week is a pity for the Tigers, a pity for Jason Taylor and a pity for Robbie Farah, who had achieved more than the Big Four put together but was somehow turned into collateral damage. (SMH 25-26 March, 2017)

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Post by hammertime » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 8:22 am

Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 7:49 am

Gillard got more legislation through then even John Howard, in spite of sabotaging and extremely nasty tactics by Abbott, as well as only having a marriage of convenience with Greens and Tony Windsor, Oakenshot and wilkie was it. Abbot and Turnbull have majorities in the upper house so should have been in a much stronger position than Gillard. She pulled of miracles considering.
Getting legislation through isn't my barometer of success, especially if my kids, kids are going to be still paying off that legislation. Or people died as a result of rushing legislation (Ceiling batts anyone?)

Getting legislation through can also simply mean using our tax dollars to buy support on stupid, wasteful pet projects of someone with the balance of power. Like an Oakenshot or Windsor.

Does anyone realise how screwed we are? Over the next two decades, we are going to have some monumental challenges, namely.

- Paying for massive welfare and health costs on the boomers
- Dealing with a massive restructuring in our workforce for robotics and potentially mass unemployment.
- Fixing the environment

Those are only 3 dot points, but each of them MASSIVE. Our budget is currently so badly structured to tackle this.

Democracy was still working before Howard was kicked out, now our parliament seems hell bent on not upsetting the voter base. This PC focused, don't rock the boat, rubbish started with Rudd and has continued from there. Yes, Abbott and Turnbull have been terrible too.

It's obvious Australians don't realise the big picture. We need a strong leader to explain WHY, like Howard did, when they need to take tough measures and start to roll back wasteful spending. We're getting more and more selfish and the average joe just doesn't understand. Can you imagine one of our weak leaders wearing a bullet proof vest to explain taking back guns these days?

The most frustrating thing is that if that leader exists, I can't see them getting through the party system to rise to the top. Strong leaders with conviction these days will get beaten to party leadership by weasels, like Shorten, who balance the numbers.

It's why the Hansons and Bernardi's are gaining support despite the fact that they are crackpots. I really believe it has little to do with racism and more to do with removing major party leaders that are becoming no more than poll based puppets.

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Post by Byron Bay Fan » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 10:00 am

Hammertime, I can understand where you are coming from and largely agree but missed one very important point that we are still paying for Howard's mistake until today - the unnecessary and illegal incursion into Iraq and all it's off spins. Labor's spending had good intentions and good eventual outcome but their timing of expenditure certainly has to be fully judged in time. Whereas Howard's mistake has cost thousands of lives and we will never stop paying it seems. Local terrorism is a result of Howard and that is costing us a fortune as well. The whole Middle East is totally stuffed up because of Howard, Bush and Blair. Howard help create the refugee boat people problem then Abbott won elections on harassing them.

Fantastic to see someone else mention the environment as well as myself - top marks and finally!
Malcolm Knox: What has happened this week is a pity for the Tigers, a pity for Jason Taylor and a pity for Robbie Farah, who had achieved more than the Big Four put together but was somehow turned into collateral damage. (SMH 25-26 March, 2017)


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Post by Magnus » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 10:40 am

Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 10:00 am
Hammertime, I can understand where you are coming from and largely agree but missed one very important point that we are still paying for Howard's mistake until today - the unnecessary and illegal incursion into Iraq and all it's off spins. Labor's spending had good intentions and good eventual outcome but their timing of expenditure certainly has to be fully judged in time. Whereas Howard's mistake has cost thousands of lives and we will never stop paying it seems. Local terrorism is a result of Howard and that is costing us a fortune as well. The whole Middle East is totally stuffed up because of Howard, Bush and Blair. Howard help create the refugee boat people problem then Abbott won elections on harassing them.

Fantastic to see someone else mention the environment as well as myself - top marks and finally!
Agreed, Muslims; WMD; Al Qaeda were all a patsy for oil; drugs and money. What they're doing in Afghanistan with the poppy/opium over there is so depressing. The CIA will always be the biggest drug dealer in the planet. From the contra war in Nicaragua to p[resent day. America and Australia defending their freedoms in Iraq; Afghanistan and Yemen.

Not to mention there is a major cholera outbreak in Yemen now because of the war the US & the Saudis started over there. Babies dead everyday. Whole place is a mess.

They condemn North Korea for their human rights abuses yet contradict themselves by supporting the Saudis. The first country Obama/Trump visited outside of the US was Saudi Arabia where there are beheadings every day. The same country where the 9/11 hijackers came from. Go figure

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Post by formerguest » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 11:22 am

hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 8:22 am
Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 7:49 am

Gillard got more legislation through then even John Howard, in spite of sabotaging and extremely nasty tactics by Abbott, as well as only having a marriage of convenience with Greens and Tony Windsor, Oakenshot and wilkie was it. Abbot and Turnbull have majorities in the upper house so should have been in a much stronger position than Gillard. She pulled of miracles considering.
Getting legislation through isn't my barometer of success, especially if my kids, kids are going to be still paying off that legislation. Or people died as a result of rushing legislation (Ceiling batts anyone?)

Getting legislation through can also simply mean using our tax dollars to buy support on stupid, wasteful pet projects of someone with the balance of power. Like an Oakenshot or Windsor.

Does anyone realise how screwed we are? Over the next two decades, we are going to have some monumental challenges, namely.

- Paying for massive welfare and health costs on the boomers
- Dealing with a massive restructuring in our workforce for robotics and potentially mass unemployment.
- Fixing the environment

Those are only 3 dot points, but each of them MASSIVE. Our budget is currently so badly structured to tackle this.

Democracy was still working before Howard was kicked out, now our parliament seems hell bent on not upsetting the voter base. This PC focused, don't rock the boat, rubbish started with Rudd and has continued from there. Yes, Abbott and Turnbull have been terrible too.

It's obvious Australians don't realise the big picture. We need a strong leader to explain WHY, like Howard did, when they need to take tough measures and start to roll back wasteful spending. We're getting more and more selfish and the average joe just doesn't understand. Can you imagine one of our weak leaders wearing a bullet proof vest to explain taking back guns these days?

The most frustrating thing is that if that leader exists, I can't see them getting through the party system to rise to the top. Strong leaders with conviction these days will get beaten to party leadership by weasels, like Shorten, who balance the numbers.

It's why the Hansons and Bernardi's are gaining support despite the fact that they are crackpots. I really believe it has little to do with racism and more to do with removing major party leaders that are becoming no more than poll based puppets.
I can agree on the lack of a leader on both side, selfishness, future challenges and the bullet proof vest bit amongst others, but I had a hearty belly laugh reading some of your points, especially with the championing of Howard after expressing concerns about wasteful spending, boomer welfare and the budget structure. He and Costello created the architecture of the structural deficit that still exists through middle class welfare, tax cuts and superannuation loopholes, rather than utilise the riches of the mineral boom on infrastructure of any sort. Apart from gun control and the GST, nothing great was done during his tenure, though he had turned the corner, well at least publicly, on environmental policy coming into his last election. Championing the attack on Iraq, well the less said about that the better for Howard, but still not showing remorse for the ongoing suffering and destruction to this very day is incomprehensible.

As for Rudd, yes he was/is a a bit of a peanut and oversaw some errors, including in stimulating the economy with the Batts scheme, but despite a huge volume rollout, the deaths, whilst tragic, were at a rate very similar to that which normally occurs in the industry, particularly the foil option. The political Royal Commission that followed Abbott gaining power was part of the waste you and I are both concerned about. For mine, and I concede it forms part of the severe budget problem, the biggest mistake of the Rudd government was to follow through with the last of the Costello tax cuts when the GFC would have negated any public backlash to it being rightfully abandoned.

The Gillard tenure, to be fair, whilst there was some favourable funding to individual's electorate, it is well known that Abbott offered just about an open treasury to the same person. As you would no doubt be aware, despite being well into the second term of the subsequent government, very little of all that legislation passed has repealed and only one that had a large effect on the economy. Sadly that one was also the most significant legislation ever passed regarding one of your monumental concerns, being the environment. Since that abandonment we have had to endure ever increasing energy costs and an industries struggling for direction in the shadow of a government in utter disarray.

As a final insult to some in our society, this and every weekend, there will be an increasing number of struggling people working, including parents not able to spend time with their children. It is disgusting that some of those same people have already had pay cut and as every week passes more and more are receiving less money catering to the shopping, dining and entertainment desires to many of the selfish you describe.

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Post by hammertime » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 12:28 pm

It's not widely known, but Howards policy around super and family benefits (baby bonus, FTB, etc.) were actually targeted around the intergenerational issues. More tax payers in the system to support the boomers, the more the burden will be spread. You would have noticed they weren't means tested to ensure there was a wide variety of backgrounds. One he didn't get a lot of credit for was the Future fund to cover the Public service super liabilities which was underfunded.

He knew about the issues and tackled them. Tax decreases, to grow the pie, in a time of prosperity is exactly the right thing to do. Don't forget we actually had a cash surplus at that point.

So, sure he implemented them, but I reckon he would have had the fortitude to roll them back when we didn't have the spending capacity, instead of perpetuating the issues.

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Post by Byron Bay Fan » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 1:27 pm

hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 12:28 pm
It's not widely known, but Howards policy around super and family benefits (baby bonus, FTB, etc.) were actually targeted around the intergenerational issues. More tax payers in the system to support the boomers, the more the burden will be spread. You would have noticed they weren't means tested to ensure there was a wide variety of backgrounds. One he didn't get a lot of credit for was the Future fund to cover the Public service super liabilities which was underfunded.

He knew about the issues and tackled them. Tax decreases, to grow the pie, in a time of prosperity is exactly the right thing to do. Don't forget we actually had a cash surplus at that point.

So, sure he implemented them, but I reckon he would have had the fortitude to roll them back when we didn't have the spending capacity, instead of perpetuating the issues.
He would not have been able to roll back the Iraqi invasion expenses as we are still being asked to send troops now. All the Syrian refugees are a by-product of Iraq, the whole ruddy country is wrecked, the Kurds are revolting - it was absolutely none of our business. Turkey is bombing Kurds etc.. We can't even take nail clippers or aftershave in our hand baggage on aeroplanes anymore. I made a special plea for my tubs of babaganoush a few weeks back on Jetstar and they let me keep it.
Malcolm Knox: What has happened this week is a pity for the Tigers, a pity for Jason Taylor and a pity for Robbie Farah, who had achieved more than the Big Four put together but was somehow turned into collateral damage. (SMH 25-26 March, 2017)

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Post by hammertime » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 1:36 pm

Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 1:27 pm
hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 12:28 pm
It's not widely known, but Howards policy around super and family benefits (baby bonus, FTB, etc.) were actually targeted around the intergenerational issues. More tax payers in the system to support the boomers, the more the burden will be spread. You would have noticed they weren't means tested to ensure there was a wide variety of backgrounds. One he didn't get a lot of credit for was the Future fund to cover the Public service super liabilities which was underfunded.

He knew about the issues and tackled them. Tax decreases, to grow the pie, in a time of prosperity is exactly the right thing to do. Don't forget we actually had a cash surplus at that point.

So, sure he implemented them, but I reckon he would have had the fortitude to roll them back when we didn't have the spending capacity, instead of perpetuating the issues.
He would not have been able to roll back the Iraqi invasion expenses as we are still being asked to send troops now. All the Syrian refugees are a by-product of Iraq, the whole ruddy country is wrecked, the Kurds are revolting - it was absolutely none of our business. Turkey is bombing Kurds etc.. We can't even take nail clippers or aftershave in our hand baggage on aeroplanes anymore. I made a special plea for my tubs of babaganoush a few weeks back on Jetstar and they let me keep it.
The alternative to us aligning with the US is spend even MORE on Defence.

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Post by formerguest » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 2:01 pm

hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 12:28 pm
It's not widely known, but Howards policy around super and family benefits (baby bonus, FTB, etc.) were actually targeted around the intergenerational issues. More tax payers in the system to support the boomers, the more the burden will be spread. You would have noticed they weren't means tested to ensure there was a wide variety of backgrounds. One he didn't get a lot of credit for was the Future fund to cover the Public service super liabilities which was underfunded.

He knew about the issues and tackled them. Tax decreases, to grow the pie, in a time of prosperity is exactly the right thing to do. Don't forget we actually had a cash surplus at that point.

So, sure he implemented them, but I reckon he would have had the fortitude to roll them back when we didn't have the spending capacity, instead of perpetuating the issues.
That we will never know, he may well have surprised me. As I lived in the Bennelong electorate throughout his parliamentary tenure, I also benefited from his direct literature to better judge him. We are however aware that it is virtually politically impossible to revive taxes and that part of the super changes at the time opened a June 30 window of absolute rorting of the system. Had they effectively created the same tax cuts, but in the form of moving bracket creep, we would not be trapped in the current mire.

The future fund was a good decision and undoubtedly helped when the GFC hit, but it must be remembered that those funds came from the sale of our gold reserves and the sale of Telstra and not from regular fiscal policy. Their policies made upper and middle Australia happy and able to spend time on their subsidised boats and easier to purchase further housing etc, but did bugger all for infrastructure when the mineral backed coffers were overflowing. A prime example being the Pacific Highway that is still not fully funded.

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Post by formerguest » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 2:09 pm

hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 1:36 pm
Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 1:27 pm
hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 12:28 pm
It's not widely known, but Howards policy around super and family benefits (baby bonus, FTB, etc.) were actually targeted around the intergenerational issues. More tax payers in the system to support the boomers, the more the burden will be spread. You would have noticed they weren't means tested to ensure there was a wide variety of backgrounds. One he didn't get a lot of credit for was the Future fund to cover the Public service super liabilities which was underfunded.

He knew about the issues and tackled them. Tax decreases, to grow the pie, in a time of prosperity is exactly the right thing to do. Don't forget we actually had a cash surplus at that point.

So, sure he implemented them, but I reckon he would have had the fortitude to roll them back when we didn't have the spending capacity, instead of perpetuating the issues.
He would not have been able to roll back the Iraqi invasion expenses as we are still being asked to send troops now. All the Syrian refugees are a by-product of Iraq, the whole ruddy country is wrecked, the Kurds are revolting - it was absolutely none of our business. Turkey is bombing Kurds etc.. We can't even take nail clippers or aftershave in our hand baggage on aeroplanes anymore. I made a special plea for my tubs of babaganoush a few weeks back on Jetstar and they let me keep it.
The alternative to us aligning with the US is spend even MORE on Defence.
We could always decide to build Submarines in South Australia again to save a few dollars.

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Post by kevinmcguiness » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 3:27 pm

i know this is a little off topic but who is also following the jfk files being released today?

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Post by Byron Bay Fan » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 5:42 pm

hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 1:36 pm
Byron Bay Fan wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 1:27 pm
hammertime wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 12:28 pm
It's not widely known, but Howards policy around super and family benefits (baby bonus, FTB, etc.) were actually targeted around the intergenerational issues. More tax payers in the system to support the boomers, the more the burden will be spread. You would have noticed they weren't means tested to ensure there was a wide variety of backgrounds. One he didn't get a lot of credit for was the Future fund to cover the Public service super liabilities which was underfunded.

He knew about the issues and tackled them. Tax decreases, to grow the pie, in a time of prosperity is exactly the right thing to do. Don't forget we actually had a cash surplus at that point.

So, sure he implemented them, but I reckon he would have had the fortitude to roll them back when we didn't have the spending capacity, instead of perpetuating the issues.
He would not have been able to roll back the Iraqi invasion expenses as we are still being asked to send troops now. All the Syrian refugees are a by-product of Iraq, the whole ruddy country is wrecked, the Kurds are revolting - it was absolutely none of our business. Turkey is bombing Kurds etc.. We can't even take nail clippers or aftershave in our hand baggage on aeroplanes anymore. I made a special plea for my tubs of babaganoush a few weeks back on Jetstar and they let me keep it.
The alternative to us aligning with the US is spend even MORE on Defence.
No, the alternative was 40 years ago aligning with the Non-Aligned Movement so as to help it became a truly strong and effective force in international politics. Post the two world wars and atomic bombs the world had to change but has failed to do so, we are still in the same mindset of bigger and better weapons and all the unnecessary expenditure.
The money wasted on defence etc could feed the world many times I would guess. As well as funding birth control and other health issues.

(http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-forg ... -australia)
Malcolm Knox: What has happened this week is a pity for the Tigers, a pity for Jason Taylor and a pity for Robbie Farah, who had achieved more than the Big Four put together but was somehow turned into collateral damage. (SMH 25-26 March, 2017)

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Post by magpiecol » Thu 26 Oct, 2017 5:43 pm

kevinmcguiness wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 3:27 pm
i know this is a little off topic but who is also following the jfk files being released today?
Not me. Nothing new.

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Post by Munk » Fri 27 Oct, 2017 8:35 am

You have some good stories.

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Post by kevinmcguiness » Fri 27 Oct, 2017 9:34 am

magpiecol wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 5:43 pm
kevinmcguiness wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 3:27 pm
i know this is a little off topic but who is also following the jfk files being released today?
Not me. Nothing new.
if anyone else is interested there will be over 2000 files released today, although heavily redacted in my opinon. I think it is huge news. Although he slept around i'm a big fan of Jack. Most online organisations are doing live updates

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Post by Yossarian » Fri 27 Oct, 2017 11:31 am

kevinmcguiness wrote:
Fri 27 Oct, 2017 9:34 am
magpiecol wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 5:43 pm
kevinmcguiness wrote:
Thu 26 Oct, 2017 3:27 pm
i know this is a little off topic but who is also following the jfk files being released today?
Not me. Nothing new.
if anyone else is interested there will be over 2000 files released today, although heavily redacted in my opinon. I think it is huge news. Although he slept around i'm a big fan of Jack. Most online organisations are doing live updates
There may be some historically interesting documents. I doubt anything of significance relevant to the assassination will surface.

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