Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

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Cultured Bogan
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Re: Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

Post by Cultured Bogan » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:57 am

Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:32 am
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:49 am
"Find out what your values are and run with that. Except the values that I oppose..."
Yes. And i didn't even try to hide it.

Very perceptive.

However its not about my 'values'. If young swaggy wants to grow old in a stable and prosperous country, he will want to make sure Australia has nothing to do with policies such as marxism and socialism, that have failed everywhere else in the world they have ever been tried.

Someone needs to let him in on the secret, because it sure as hell wont be his pink haired university professors.
It may surprise you Abe but I think we have the right mix of socialist and capitalist philosophies (while I'm fairly left wing on social issues, I am pretty liberal economically also.) We have safety nets like welfare and universal healthcare which ensures the population don't go into hock trying to get conditions treated. We also have the ability to earn a good living in a regulated (admittedly certain industries are over regulated,) economy.

I agree that company tax hinders business, EBA's reward slackers for the fruits of labour of the hard working and unions don't care about the workers as much as some think (they're not completely redundant but they are not this supposed champion of the worker like they are purported to be, I have experienced this first hand.)

Australia is not perfect but I think it is a pretty centrist society which borrows most of the good that either side of the political spectrum has to offer and little of the bad. Fringe left and right wing philosophies are becoming more mainstream and are starting to stink up the centrist nature of Australian politics, largely due to apathy with the poor crop of politicians on both sides of politics of late.
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Post by Abraham » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:43 am

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:57 am
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:32 am
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:49 am
"Find out what your values are and run with that. Except the values that I oppose..."
Yes. And i didn't even try to hide it.

Very perceptive.

However its not about my 'values'. If young swaggy wants to grow old in a stable and prosperous country, he will want to make sure Australia has nothing to do with policies such as marxism and socialism, that have failed everywhere else in the world they have ever been tried.

Someone needs to let him in on the secret, because it sure as hell wont be his pink haired university professors.
It may surprise you Abe but I think we have the right mix of socialist and capitalist philosophies (while I'm fairly left wing on social issues, I am pretty liberal economically also.) We have safety nets like welfare and universal healthcare which ensures the population don't go into hock trying to get conditions treated. We also have the ability to earn a good living in a regulated (admittedly certain industries are over regulated,) economy.

I agree that company tax hinders business, EBA's reward slackers for the fruits of labour of the hard working and unions don't care about the workers as much as some think (they're not completely redundant but they are not this supposed champion of the worker like they are purported to be, I have experienced this first hand.)

Australia is not perfect but I think it is a pretty centrist society which borrows most of the good that either side of the political spectrum has to offer and little of the bad. Fringe left and right wing philosophies are becoming more mainstream and are starting to stink up the centrist nature of Australian politics, largely due to apathy with the poor crop of politicians on both sides of politics of late.
I pretty much agree with most of what you have said.

I would say our social welfare programs are way too generous, and we are gradually moving away from what made us a successful country (as is happening throughout the West in general).

However according the the Left, we are a terrible country with terrible values, and the only way to rectify this is to implement social and political policies that have failed each and every time they have been tried anywhere in the world.

Go figure.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 11:28 am

Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:43 am
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:57 am
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:32 am
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:49 am
"Find out what your values are and run with that. Except the values that I oppose..."
Yes. And i didn't even try to hide it.

Very perceptive.

However its not about my 'values'. If young swaggy wants to grow old in a stable and prosperous country, he will want to make sure Australia has nothing to do with policies such as marxism and socialism, that have failed everywhere else in the world they have ever been tried.

Someone needs to let him in on the secret, because it sure as hell wont be his pink haired university professors.
It may surprise you Abe but I think we have the right mix of socialist and capitalist philosophies (while I'm fairly left wing on social issues, I am pretty liberal economically also.) We have safety nets like welfare and universal healthcare which ensures the population don't go into hock trying to get conditions treated. We also have the ability to earn a good living in a regulated (admittedly certain industries are over regulated,) economy.

I agree that company tax hinders business, EBA's reward slackers for the fruits of labour of the hard working and unions don't care about the workers as much as some think (they're not completely redundant but they are not this supposed champion of the worker like they are purported to be, I have experienced this first hand.)

Australia is not perfect but I think it is a pretty centrist society which borrows most of the good that either side of the political spectrum has to offer and little of the bad. Fringe left and right wing philosophies are becoming more mainstream and are starting to stink up the centrist nature of Australian politics, largely due to apathy with the poor crop of politicians on both sides of politics of late.
I pretty much agree with most of what you have said.

I would say our social welfare programs are way too generous, and we are gradually moving away from what made us a successful country (as is happening throughout the West in general).

However according the the Left, we are a terrible country with terrible values, and the only way to rectify this is to implement social and political policies that have failed each and every time they have been tried anywhere in the world.

Go figure.
Depends which left you talk to. Like anything in life the loudest element is generally the smallest. Same as how you generally don't hear from the centre-right and right, but more likely to hear from far-right groups. It's the same thing for mine, they're just as annoying and potentially dangerous as each other as they thrive on marginalising sections of the population.

Welfare could be reined in, but if it means at the expense of those whom truly need it I can cop the waste.

The most dangerous thing in this country is short term policy. No one wants to put their nuts on the line and work for a long term vision. Bi-partisanship and ending race to the bottom politicking needs to occur for this to happen.
#penaltyTigers

Cuando llegue el día, y estoy parado a las puertas del cielo, será Dios pidiendo mi perdón...

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Post by jadtiger » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:09 pm

Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:28 am
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:58 am
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:31 am
swag tiger wrote:
Wed 30 May, 2018 5:18 pm
I legally have to vote now. :cry: :cry:
And i don't know a think about politics even though i did Commerce and Business studies at school.
Politics is about values, not what subjects you did at school.

Find out what your values are, and then try and match them to a politician or party that represents them.

The major parties are all so closely aligned at present its hard to tell them apart, which is why many people are ditching them for smaller 'micro' parties.

If you get stuck, just steer clear or anything to do with the socialism/marxism/leftism.
You forgot the worst 3 nationalism/capitalism/rightism.
Your typing a criticism of capitalism, on a computer/tablet/smart phone that capitalism gave you.

Not the smartest move.
Your defination of capitalism is far removed from mine.We probably have wide variance in divisive subjects like monarchy and organised religion too
Last edited by jadtiger on Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Abraham » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:12 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 11:28 am

Depends which left you talk to. Like anything in life the loudest element is generally the smallest. Same as how you generally don't hear from the centre-right and right, but more likely to hear from far-right groups. It's the same thing for mine, they're just as annoying and potentially dangerous as each other as they thrive on marginalising sections of the population.

Welfare could be reined in, but if it means at the expense of those whom truly need it I can cop the waste.

The most dangerous thing in this country is short term policy. No one wants to put their nuts on the line and work for a long term vision. Bi-partisanship and ending race to the bottom politicking needs to occur for this to happen.
What you're saying used to be true of the left, however in today's world all of the self labelled 'progressive' parties, be it the Dems in the US, Labour in the UK, and Labor here in OZ, are all moving swiftly to be 'left of the left'. Its no longer about trade unions and workers rights, its about social justice and cultural marxism.

The traditional left, of which you probably belong, has been left squarely behind. You're probably considered to be a centrist these days.

Conversely, i don't think there has been the same shift right for the major right wing parties. There will be though.


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Post by Abraham » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:15 pm

jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:09 pm
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:28 am
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:58 am
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:31 am


Politics is about values, not what subjects you did at school.

Find out what your values are, and then try and match them to a politician or party that represents them.

The major parties are all so closely aligned at present its hard to tell them apart, which is why many people are ditching them for smaller 'micro' parties.

If you get stuck, just steer clear or anything to do with the socialism/marxism/leftism.
You forgot the worst 3 nationalism/capitalism/rightism.
Your typing a criticism of capitalism, on a computer/tablet/smart phone that capitalism gave you.

Not the smartest move.
Your defination of capitalism is far removed from mine.We probably have wide variance in divisive subjects like monarchy and organised religion too

You said capitalism is the 'worst'. And then got well and truly pinged for making such a ridiculous comment.

So now its just a 'definition' problem? How convenient.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:16 pm

Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:12 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 11:28 am

Depends which left you talk to. Like anything in life the loudest element is generally the smallest. Same as how you generally don't hear from the centre-right and right, but more likely to hear from far-right groups. It's the same thing for mine, they're just as annoying and potentially dangerous as each other as they thrive on marginalising sections of the population.

Welfare could be reined in, but if it means at the expense of those whom truly need it I can cop the waste.

The most dangerous thing in this country is short term policy. No one wants to put their nuts on the line and work for a long term vision. Bi-partisanship and ending race to the bottom politicking needs to occur for this to happen.
What you're saying used to be true of the left, however in today's world all of the self labelled 'progressive' parties, be it the Dems in the US, Labour in the UK, and Labor here in OZ, are all moving swiftly to be 'left of the left'. Its no longer about trade unions and workers rights, its about social justice and cultural marxism.

The traditional left, of which you probably belong, has been left squarely behind. You're probably considered to be a centrist these days.

Conversely, i don't think there has been the same shift right for the major right wing parties. There will be though.
My economic viewpoints probably push me to the centre. Most of the political compasses I do tend to put me in the middle. That and my disregard for unions.
#penaltyTigers

Cuando llegue el día, y estoy parado a las puertas del cielo, será Dios pidiendo mi perdón...

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Post by jadtiger » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:26 pm

Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:15 pm
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:09 pm
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:28 am
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:58 am

You forgot the worst 3 nationalism/capitalism/rightism.
Your typing a criticism of capitalism, on a computer/tablet/smart phone that capitalism gave you.

Not the smartest move.
Your defination of capitalism is far removed from mine.We probably have wide variance in divisive subjects like monarchy and organised religion too

You said capitalism is the 'worst'. And then got well and truly pinged for making such a ridiculous comment.

So now its just a 'definition' problem? How convenient.
Oh dear you really do have a closed mind.I added 3 bad things to avoid which you conveniently forgot to put in.Extremism in all forms is a bad thing but like many you only concentrate on the ones you dont like.

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Post by Abraham » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:38 pm

jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:26 pm
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:15 pm
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:09 pm
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:28 am


Your typing a criticism of capitalism, on a computer/tablet/smart phone that capitalism gave you.

Not the smartest move.
Your defination of capitalism is far removed from mine.We probably have wide variance in divisive subjects like monarchy and organised religion too

You said capitalism is the 'worst'. And then got well and truly pinged for making such a ridiculous comment.

So now its just a 'definition' problem? How convenient.
Oh dear you really do have a closed mind.I added 3 bad things to avoid which you conveniently forgot to put in.Extremism in all forms is a bad thing but like many you only concentrate on the ones you dont like.
Knowing fact from falacy is not being closed minded.

And last i checked there was no extremist capitalists running for election. Unless you have another definitional problem on your hands (could be you just don't know what your talking about though)?

You enjoy the immeasurable benefits of Capitalism every second of your life, but then tell people it is evil. There is a word for people like you ... in fact, there are quite a few.

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Post by jadtiger » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:50 pm

Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:38 pm
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:26 pm
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:15 pm
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:09 pm

Your defination of capitalism is far removed from mine.We probably have wide variance in divisive subjects like monarchy and organised religion too

You said capitalism is the 'worst'. And then got well and truly pinged for making such a ridiculous comment.

So now its just a 'definition' problem? How convenient.
Oh dear you really do have a closed mind.I added 3 bad things to avoid which you conveniently forgot to put in.Extremism in all forms is a bad thing but like many you only concentrate on the ones you dont like.
Knowing fact from falacy is not being closed minded.

And last i checked there was no extremist capitalists running for election. Unless you have another definitional problem on your hands (could be you just don't know what your talking about though)?

You enjoy the immeasurable benefits of Capitalism every second of your life, but then tell people it is evil. There is a word for people like you ... in fact, there are quite a few.
We will agree to disagree because it is pointless to continue this discussion

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Post by Abraham » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 1:03 pm

jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:50 pm
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:38 pm
jadtiger wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:26 pm
Abraham wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:15 pm


You said capitalism is the 'worst'. And then got well and truly pinged for making such a ridiculous comment.

So now its just a 'definition' problem? How convenient.
Oh dear you really do have a closed mind.I added 3 bad things to avoid which you conveniently forgot to put in.Extremism in all forms is a bad thing but like many you only concentrate on the ones you dont like.
Knowing fact from falacy is not being closed minded.

And last i checked there was no extremist capitalists running for election. Unless you have another definitional problem on your hands (could be you just don't know what your talking about though)?

You enjoy the immeasurable benefits of Capitalism every second of your life, but then tell people it is evil. There is a word for people like you ... in fact, there are quite a few.
We will agree to disagree because it is pointless to continue this discussion
No actually its not.

Let me help you out, because you seem lost in a self-created world of confusion.

Capitalism has pulled more people out of poverty than any system - ever. It made the 20th century the most technologically advanced in human history. It gave us inventions like motor vehicles, life saving medications, computers, iphones, and every other conceivable luxury that we take for granted without even thinking about.

And you claim this to be on your list of 3 'worst' categories.

So unless i have interrupted your plans to migrate to Venezuela where you can live in a socialist paradise of stray cat meat for dinner, no electricity, and no medicine when you get sick, then i think you need to adjust your 'definitions' to suit reality.

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Post by Yossarian » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 1:40 pm

Arguing that socialism fails because Venezuela is as apt as saying capitalism fails because Chad. Any system fails with incompetent leadership or structure. And no I'm not advocating for a totally socialist state.

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Post by Abraham » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 2:20 pm

Yossarian wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 1:40 pm
Arguing that socialism fails because Venezuela is as apt as saying capitalism fails because Chad. Any system fails with incompetent leadership or structure. And no I'm not advocating for a totally socialist state.
I specifically picked Venezuela because it is a perfect example of a country moving from a capitalist inspired haven, to a hell hole on the back of socialist policies.

So unless Chad was a successful socialist nation that developed into a shambles on the back of capitalist initiatives, then no, you can't make the same comparison.

Incompetent leadership plays a role regardless of the system, but the problem is that no-one can point to any successful socialist nation. One has never existed.

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Post by Yossarian » Tue 05 Jun, 2018 4:19 pm

Venezuela was a capitalist haven? If you say so. Arguably it did better under Chavez at first.
The Scandinavian countries aren't successful socialist nations or will we go down the not a true Scotsman path?

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Post by Abraham » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 9:31 am

Yossarian wrote:
Tue 05 Jun, 2018 4:19 pm
Venezuela was a capitalist haven? If you say so. Arguably it did better under Chavez at first.
The Scandinavian countries aren't successful socialist nations or will we go down the not a true Scotsman path?
Venezuela had one of the highest GDPs in the world and a booming economy in the 1950's before the slide into socialism. Now they eat dogs because the supermakets don't stock actual food. Its a complicated country with a complicated past, but to ignore the devastating effects of socialism is absurd.

And no, the Scandanavian countries are not socialist. Not even close. They are free market economies with an extraordinarily high rate of taxation and social welfare spending.

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Post by Yossarian » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 10:33 am

1950s? What you mean when Jiminez nationalized vast sectors of the economy? That wasn't socialist according to you?
Luis Herrera Campins was a socialist? Must be news to him. What is absurd is a revisionist approach that pegs Venezuela's current issues on a political philosophy. The country is stuffed because politicians on both sides are corrupt.

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Post by Yossarian » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 10:36 am

As I suspected your definition of socialism is entirely linked to how prosperous individual countries are. Nobody claims they are communist or totally socialist. Then again nobody aside from you believes Venezuela before Chavez was either

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Post by Abraham » Wed 06 Jun, 2018 11:53 am

The Quote function is very tricky to use apparently ...
Yossarian wrote:
Wed 06 Jun, 2018 10:33 am
1950s? What you mean when Jiminez nationalized vast sectors of the economy? That wasn't socialist according to you?
Luis Herrera Campins was a socialist? Must be news to him. What is absurd is a revisionist approach that pegs Venezuela's current issues on a political philosophy. The country is stuffed because politicians on both sides are corrupt.
The economic prosperity that peaked during the 1950's was the result of the free market policies of Gomez from the previous decades after WW1.

Jiminez started the rot , and it was a slow burn that led up to the steep decline we have recently seen.

I'm sure that you, as an expert on Venezuela, don't need an explanation that the nationalization of the country's most prosperous industries, devaluation of the currency, and state intervention in the labor market are a massive reason that the country fell from its lofty heights (and of course corruption and other factors play their role). Free market economics does not involve any of those interventions however, socialism does.

Now the topic of my comments were aimed at shooting down the demonisation of Capitalism, while the socialist inspired downfall of Venezuela was a small side note. Its not an overly important topis for me, but if you find it extremely stimulating, i'm happy to keep talking about it with you for as long as you can keep it interesting.
Yossarian wrote:
Wed 06 Jun, 2018 10:36 am
As I suspected your definition of socialism is entirely linked to how prosperous individual countries are. Nobody claims they are communist or totally socialist. Then again nobody aside from you believes Venezuela before Chavez was either
You suspected wrong.

My definition of Socialism is ... the broadly accepted definition of Socialism.

A) Socialised ownership of means of production, and B)Socialised disbursement of property.

In Scandinavian countries the states do not own the means of production, the private sector overwhelmingly do. In Scandinavian countries the Government does not distribute property and wages, the private sector do.

The state intervention is only via the tax/welfare system.

Therefore, these are not Socialist Countries as you noted. Same as Australia is not a Military Dictatorship ... see how that works?

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