America - Gun Control

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Yossarian
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Re: America - Gun Control

Unread post by Yossarian » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am

patwalker wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:31 am
I am not nor have I ever been a conspiracy theorist. But one question keeps ringing in my ears. Where are all the spent casings and why are there no burn marks on the carpet? They estimated that he would have loosed around 2500-3000 rounds in ten minutes yet there were what they described as "dozens of cases on the carpet" and it really did look like they had been thrown around the room rather than spat out in a regular pattern near the window like you would expect. I'm not saying it was set up by anti gun lobbyists or anything else but something is very fishy about it all. Also, the number of guns keeps changing, originally it was ten, then twenty then twenty seven. And how did a guy in his mid sixties get them all up there unnoticed?
Americans are quite simply the dumbest nation on the planet. The ignorance is nothing short of astounding. I know quite a few and my seven year old has more sense and smarts than any of them.
You will never sell logic to an American, they just aren't wired that way. Like women......
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.


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Unread post by Onthebus » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:58 am

Must agree, Americans are dumb for the love of guns.

They are also a very paranoid lot, thinking that giving up their arms will give the government the upper hand if anything was to happen.

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Unread post by voice of reason » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:08 am

patwalker wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:31 am
You will never sell logic to an American, they just aren't wired that way. Like women......
It would seem I'm doomed, I'm married to an American woman. And just for clarity, they don't all worship guns.
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Unread post by voice of reason » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:18 am

Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.
Exactly. There will always be people with foil hats trying to contrive a conspiracy when it's unlikely one exists. I would think an investigation of this type would take weeks or months to complete and there's little chance the general public will ever be told the full process of the killings - nor is there any need to do so.
To be concluding there's some massive cover up based on the publicly available evidence would be naive, if not foolish.
Let's just see it for what it was - a tragic mass murder by a crazy person who had access to weapons which normal citizens should never have been allowed to buy.
Suffering supporter since 1967

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Unread post by tsjonathan » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:08 am

voice of reason wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:18 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.
Exactly. There will always be people with foil hats trying to contrive a conspiracy when it's unlikely one exists. I would think an investigation of this type would take weeks or months to complete and there's little chance the general public will ever be told the full process of the killings - nor is there any need to do so.
To be concluding there's some massive cover up based on the publicly available evidence would be naive, if not foolish.
Let's just see it for what it was - a tragic mass murder by a crazy person who had access to weapons which normal citizens should never have been allowed to buy.
Nothing wrong with asking questions. Especially when everyone has access to smart phones and a wealth of information at their disposal. In a time when mainstream media is dying and citizen journalism is on the rise it's a good thing people ask questions.


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Unread post by Abraham » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:17 am

Tiger Come Lately wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:20 am
Sad what happen over in Vegas. And sad when the wrong people get there hands on high powered and automatic weapons.

I don't know enough about the weapons or laws to enter the debate, but I read Switzerland has a large gun to population ratio (not automatic weapons) and the automatic weapons is in my opinion is the real issue. Why do they need automatic high powered weapons?

Firearms are usefull in certain cases (farmers, animal control etc) and can be an enjoyable sport to the enthusiast. When in Vegas my son and I went to a range and fired all sorts of weapons - the rule was you had to be older than 8! That was one of my highlights on the trip.

Until that day I had never fired a weapon, I was 46 at the time but I had a great time and could see why people enjoyed shooting.

The right to arms is in the US constitution, they were bought up on that right and take it seriously so to ask them to change that mentality would be like asking Abraham to accept gay marriage.

We have strict gun laws in Australia and while we don't have mass shootings we have our share of gun related crime.
Automatic weapons are basically illegal in the USA, and have been out of reach of the ordinary citizen since the great depression back in the 1930's. So automatic weapons are not the problem at all.

The vast majority of gun crime in the USA is perpetrated using hand guns. Its not even close. But you never hear the Democrats or their Celebrity spokespeople mention handguns, because it would pit them against the African-American community, and that's a big no no for anybody engaging in identity politics.

30-40 years ago these shootings just didn't happen with such regularity, even though the gun laws were the same. So what is making american's snap at such regular rates these days? Is it the high rates of opioid and depression medication that people are taking (i think prescription medication rates in the USA are about 70% of the population)? Or are we just becoming a more violent civilisation in general? It's an issue that runs much deeper than gun laws.

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Unread post by MG1962 » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:55 am

Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:56 am
Because we all know that main stream news services are the beacon of integrity.

Im more than familiar with Breitbart, although i stopped following them when Ben Shapiro resigned.

If you click on the link it is simply 20 examples of gun owners using their weapons against bad guys. I have checked some of the examples, they are real.
20 examples vs 461 mass shooting events over the same period of time....me thinks the bad guys are well on top.

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data/2016

And here is a nice compilation of Breibarts greatest hits, or misses depending on your outlook

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bre ... adb56f1bdb

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Unread post by MG1962 » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:59 am

voice of reason wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:08 am
patwalker wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:31 am
You will never sell logic to an American, they just aren't wired that way. Like women......
It would seem I'm doomed, I'm married to an American woman. And just for clarity, they don't all worship guns.
Well I am in the same boat. And you are right, the majority of Americans do want something done. After Sandy Hook, the number of Americans calling for gun control was running at about 87% But the NRA pimped out the GOP and got the vote stopped...as usual

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Unread post by Abraham » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:09 am

MG1962 wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:55 am
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:56 am
Because we all know that main stream news services are the beacon of integrity.

Im more than familiar with Breitbart, although i stopped following them when Ben Shapiro resigned.

If you click on the link it is simply 20 examples of gun owners using their weapons against bad guys. I have checked some of the examples, they are real.
20 examples vs 461 mass shooting events over the same period of time....me thinks the bad guys are well on top.

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data/2016

And here is a nice compilation of Breibarts greatest hits, or misses depending on your outlook

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bre ... adb56f1bdb
Not sure what your point is?

A member asked for examples of good guys with guns taking out the bad guys, and so i provided some.

Case closed.

And its quite funny you miss the irony of using the Huffington Post to analyse Breitbart. The left pot calling the right kettle black.

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Unread post by MG1962 » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:13 am

Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:09 am
MG1962 wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:55 am
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:56 am
Because we all know that main stream news services are the beacon of integrity.

Im more than familiar with Breitbart, although i stopped following them when Ben Shapiro resigned.

If you click on the link it is simply 20 examples of gun owners using their weapons against bad guys. I have checked some of the examples, they are real.
20 examples vs 461 mass shooting events over the same period of time....me thinks the bad guys are well on top.

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data/2016

And here is a nice compilation of Breibarts greatest hits, or misses depending on your outlook

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bre ... adb56f1bdb
Not sure what your point is?

A member asked for examples of good guys with guns taking out the bad guys, and so i provided some.

Case closed.

And its quite funny you miss the irony of using the Huffington Post to analyse Breitbart. The left pot calling the right kettle black.
Is it your contention that the Huffington Post made those stories up?

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Unread post by Earl » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:16 am

voice of reason wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:18 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.
Exactly. There will always be people with foil hats trying to contrive a conspiracy when it's unlikely one exists. I would think an investigation of this type would take weeks or months to complete and there's little chance the general public will ever be told the full process of the killings - nor is there any need to do so.
To be concluding there's some massive cover up based on the publicly available evidence would be naive, if not foolish.
Let's just see it for what it was - a tragic mass murder by a crazy person who had access to weapons which normal citizens should never have been allowed to buy.
Conspiracy theories are amazing. I think people do this because they can't face reality but it amazes me. Some guy goes crazy with guns. It happens a lot.

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Unread post by Abraham » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:07 pm

MG1962 wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:13 am
Is it your contention that the Huffington Post made those stories up?
No, its my contention that Breitbart's reputation has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.

And its also my contention that the Huffington Post is to the left, what Breitbart is to the Alt-Right, simply a propaganda mouthpiece that genuine news seekers don't take seriously.

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Unread post by Yossarian » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:26 pm

tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:08 am
voice of reason wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:18 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.
Exactly. There will always be people with foil hats trying to contrive a conspiracy when it's unlikely one exists. I would think an investigation of this type would take weeks or months to complete and there's little chance the general public will ever be told the full process of the killings - nor is there any need to do so.
To be concluding there's some massive cover up based on the publicly available evidence would be naive, if not foolish.
Let's just see it for what it was - a tragic mass murder by a crazy person who had access to weapons which normal citizens should never have been allowed to buy.
Nothing wrong with asking questions. Especially when everyone has access to smart phones and a wealth of information at their disposal. In a time when mainstream media is dying and citizen journalism is on the rise it's a good thing people ask questions.
Asking questions is fine but after every major event some Johnny Sweatpants puts out a YouTube video supposedly pointing to clear evidence of a conspiracy. I'm pretty convinced that a middle aged man on the 32nd floor armed to the teeth went nuts and shot at a crowd with lethal intent. Obviously that still leaves a lot of questions and to my mind more useful questions. I suspect many conspiracy theorists have the objective to obfuscate these things to avoid those questions.

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Unread post by Earl » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:36 pm

Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:26 pm
tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:08 am
voice of reason wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:18 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.
Exactly. There will always be people with foil hats trying to contrive a conspiracy when it's unlikely one exists. I would think an investigation of this type would take weeks or months to complete and there's little chance the general public will ever be told the full process of the killings - nor is there any need to do so.
To be concluding there's some massive cover up based on the publicly available evidence would be naive, if not foolish.
Let's just see it for what it was - a tragic mass murder by a crazy person who had access to weapons which normal citizens should never have been allowed to buy.
Nothing wrong with asking questions. Especially when everyone has access to smart phones and a wealth of information at their disposal. In a time when mainstream media is dying and citizen journalism is on the rise it's a good thing people ask questions.
Asking questions is fine but after every major event some Johnny Sweatpants puts out a YouTube video supposedly pointing to clear evidence of a conspiracy. I'm pretty convinced that a middle aged man on the 32nd floor armed to the teeth went nuts and shot at a crowd with lethal intent. Obviously that still leaves a lot of questions and to my mind more useful questions. I suspect many conspiracy theorists have the objective to obfuscate these things to avoid those questions.
Exactly. I think it's just to avoid looking at the issue.

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Unread post by innsaneink » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:42 pm

tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:08 am
voice of reason wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:18 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.
Exactly. There will always be people with foil hats trying to contrive a conspiracy when it's unlikely one exists. I would think an investigation of this type would take weeks or months to complete and there's little chance the general public will ever be told the full process of the killings - nor is there any need to do so.
To be concluding there's some massive cover up based on the publicly available evidence would be naive, if not foolish.
Let's just see it for what it was - a tragic mass murder by a crazy person who had access to weapons which normal citizens should never have been allowed to buy.
Nothing wrong with asking questions. Especially when everyone has access to smart phones and a wealth of information at their disposal. In a time when mainstream media is dying and citizen journalism is on the rise it's a good thing people ask questions.
... and even more mis-information.

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Unread post by tsjonathan » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:54 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:42 pm
tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 10:08 am
voice of reason wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 9:18 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 8:44 am
If it was all staged and some conspiracy why release photos that don't contain these supposedly glaring omissions? I mean if it was a setup you'd have all that covered right? All we've seen is a few photos without a full context. No doubt there will be a very thorough investigation and you can make a conclusion based on the full evidence.
Exactly. There will always be people with foil hats trying to contrive a conspiracy when it's unlikely one exists. I would think an investigation of this type would take weeks or months to complete and there's little chance the general public will ever be told the full process of the killings - nor is there any need to do so.
To be concluding there's some massive cover up based on the publicly available evidence would be naive, if not foolish.
Let's just see it for what it was - a tragic mass murder by a crazy person who had access to weapons which normal citizens should never have been allowed to buy.
Nothing wrong with asking questions. Especially when everyone has access to smart phones and a wealth of information at their disposal. In a time when mainstream media is dying and citizen journalism is on the rise it's a good thing people ask questions.
... and even more mis-information.
without digressing too much from the topic i would disagree. I think we live in an age where we are smarter and healthier than we have ever been in human history. Information which isn't accurate generally speaking is far less likely to be ranked by search engines such as Yahoo; Baidu; Google et al , which in turn limits traffic and increases bounce rate. Wikipedia as an example corrects any editing done on its websites within a few hours.

I can totally understand apprehension and caution with questioning media when in the 1950s you had operation mocking bird which still affects modern media.

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Unread post by Abraham » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:24 pm

tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 12:54 pm

without digressing too much from the topic i would disagree. I think we live in an age where we are smarter and healthier than we have ever been in human history. Information which isn't accurate generally speaking is far less likely to be ranked by search engines such as Yahoo; Baidu; Google et al , which in turn limits traffic and increases bounce rate. Wikipedia as an example corrects any editing done on its websites within a few hours.

I can totally understand apprehension and caution with questioning media when in the 1950s you had operation mocking bird which still affects modern media.
Asking questions is ALWAYS the intelligent thing to do.

The official line so far is that he acted alone in the hotel room. But how does a 64 year old manage to shoot a modified automatic rifle for 10-15 minutes continuously? I'm much younger than him and physically fit, and i would say it would be nearly impossible for me to do that under normal circumstances. Its not like the movies, shooting any long arm more powerful than a .22 is not a walk in the park.

If he used a bump stock as reported, he would have had this rifle pummeling into his shoulder 400 times per 60 seconds. Unless he is superman, than it verges on the physically impossible.

Information may come out explaining how this was done, but it is a legitimate question to ask when no explanation currently exists.

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Unread post by Geo. » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:55 pm

I wont believe anything until It comes from the betoota advocate..
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