America - Gun Control

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willow
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Re: America - Gun Control

Unread post by willow » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:32 pm

Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:11 pm
willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:03 pm
Munk wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:30 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:19 pm
I'm a fair bit younger than 64 but I bet I could pull a trigger for a long time. He wasn't wrestling a bear in there.
Earl have you ever used a rapid fire weapon?
I have and what he did was quite easy to do with the setup he had. People also need to recognise that he was also setting up rifles on tripods, so the felt recoil on his shoulder would have been less than normal, provided he had the right technique and was leaning into the tripod it would have been quite easy. A .223 (5.56mm) is a pussy cat to shoot. Step it up to a .308 (7.62mm) and things change considerably.
Willow if I was say 100 metres away from you and coming in fast (I run the 100m in about 1 minute flat) I bet you couldn't hit me and then it'd be on. My lethal tai chi techniques would disarm you in a second.

People just don't know what they are talking about. One man shooting fish in a bowl with an automatic weapon had no chance to do that. Poisonous darts I might believe.

I know this is a serious topic but it's hard to take some of these theories seriously.
Earl I get where you are coming from but that's one bet you seriously wouldn't like to make mate. To illustrate your point, for the uninitiated shooting a firearm for the first time is often a daunting task. People aren't ready for the noise, the recoil, the smell of burnt gunpowder. Put an assault rifle in the hands of a bloke who has been to the range a few times, knows how to hold the weapon correctly and change mags, the potential for carnage increases exponentially. Stick him 32 floors up shooting off a tripod at a crowd of 22,000, he would have hit them with his eyes shut. That's the reality. There's a reason the 5.56mm is the preferred calibre for assault rifles and military units around the world, it's reliable, offers very good ballistics and allows shooters to fire rapid shots while remaining on target, because as I already mentioned, recoil is light.

I'll give you an example of what a trained shooter can do, here is a target I knocked over at 800 metres earlier this year (electronically recorded by sensors in the target). Conditions were good, 10 shots into a group measuring 4.23 inches, now have a look at how large the average human head is.

I don't know how much training this bloke had,he may not have been a world beater but some of his weapons were modified which suggests he was no mug.
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Unread post by innsaneink » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:36 pm

Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:24 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:20 pm
Ive fired rapid fire weapons, and no its not easy for a novice...especially one like me with bursitis in the shoulder (ended up with bruising)
But Im sure with practice at a rifle range, and with the proper clothing...it would be a lot easier even for a 64yo
Hows those broken windows on the 4th floor Abe?
I didn't mention broken windows.

Maybe the rapid fire gave you a permanent concussion.
Lol.... You reckon asking questions is healthy but get snarky when you're asked some
Nice avoidance

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Unread post by tsjonathan » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:37 pm

Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:43 pm
tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:37 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:19 pm
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:24 pm


Asking questions is ALWAYS the intelligent thing to do.

The official line so far is that he acted alone in the hotel room. But how does a 64 year old manage to shoot a modified automatic rifle for 10-15 minutes continuously? I'm much younger than him and physically fit, and i would say it would be nearly impossible for me to do that under normal circumstances. Its not like the movies, shooting any long arm more powerful than a .22 is not a walk in the park.

If he used a bump stock as reported, he would have had this rifle pummeling into his shoulder 400 times per 60 seconds. Unless he is superman, than it verges on the physically impossible.

Information may come out explaining how this was done, but it is a legitimate question to ask when no explanation currently exists.
Your premise is wrong. I'll give an explanation to you to try and explain this. I went out with some fundamentalist muslims for dinner recently. They don't believe that muslims are creating these terrorist attacks including 9/11. They believe it's a government conspiracy to curtail our freedoms.

If you simply replace fundamentalist muslims with right wing nutters the questions as you call them are exactly the same.

When you state it's always intelligent to ask questions what you really mean is it's best to have some dodgy conspiracy theory and search for irrelevant facts to try and justify that conspiracy theory.
I guess the difference is that your Muslim friend would have a bucket load of evidence and common sense and doesn't subscribe to the narrative fed to him. Which is fair enough.
Is it really fair enough ? I don't think it is. I think it's a way to avoid the negative side of Islam. I think it's the exact same thing with the hocus pocus theories regarding mass killings by gun nuts.
I was reading a book about skull and bones society not too long ago. Have a read online about them if you're interested. Related to what we're discussing

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Unread post by willow » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:41 pm

Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:20 pm
willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:56 pm

Regarding the bump stock and recoil, it's far from impossible, in fact it's quite easy. The .223 calibre assault rifles are pussy cats to shoot. I've fired a H&K G36 among other assault rifles and the recoil is minimal. Given he had 22,000 people to aim at all he needed to do was point in the direction of the crowd and the bullets will do the rest, 500 metres is no problem for a .223 when your target is the size of a football field.
I've owned a .223 for years, among others, and so I am more than familiar with the caliber.

I am not talking about him being able to hit people, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I am talking about being able to fire constantly for 10 minutes only stopping to change magazine.

Have you shot a .223 recoiling against your shoulder 400 times per minute, for 10 minutes? Because that's what i am talking about.
I've let 2 full 30 round mags go full auto on a H&K G36 which can fire 750 rounds per minute. I had fired, changed mags and fired in under 20 seconds with no pressure on changing mags. I personally didn't find it particularly difficult for a first time crack at it. Again, the tripods he had set up in the room would have made it much easier on his shoulders and if he had previously practiced shooting off a tripod, no probs at all based on my experience. Everything he did suggested he had put considerable thought and effort into it: corner room, high elevated position, windows smashed out, multiple tripods set up...if he was a deranged nutbag it's highly unlikely he would have gone to such lengths. He wanted to make a statement, whether we will ever know why is another story.

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Unread post by Earl » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:43 pm

willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:32 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:11 pm
willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:03 pm
Munk wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:30 pm


Earl have you ever used a rapid fire weapon?
I have and what he did was quite easy to do with the setup he had. People also need to recognise that he was also setting up rifles on tripods, so the felt recoil on his shoulder would have been less than normal, provided he had the right technique and was leaning into the tripod it would have been quite easy. A .223 (5.56mm) is a pussy cat to shoot. Step it up to a .308 (7.62mm) and things change considerably.
Willow if I was say 100 metres away from you and coming in fast (I run the 100m in about 1 minute flat) I bet you couldn't hit me and then it'd be on. My lethal tai chi techniques would disarm you in a second.

People just don't know what they are talking about. One man shooting fish in a bowl with an automatic weapon had no chance to do that. Poisonous darts I might believe.

I know this is a serious topic but it's hard to take some of these theories seriously.
Earl I get where you are coming from but that's one bet you seriously wouldn't like to make mate. To illustrate your point, for the uninitiated shooting a firearm for the first time is often a daunting task. People aren't ready for the noise, the recoil, the smell of burnt gunpowder. Put an assault rifle in the hands of a bloke who has been to the range a few times, knows how to hold the weapon correctly and change mags, the potential for carnage increases exponentially. Stick him 32 floors up shooting off a tripod at a crowd of 22,000, he would have hit them with his eyes shut. That's the reality. There's a reason the 5.56mm is the preferred calibre for assault rifles and military units around the world, it's reliable, offers very good ballistics and allows shooters to fire rapid shots while remaining on target, because as I already mentioned, recoil is light.

I'll give you an example of what a trained shooter can do, here is a target I knocked over at 800 metres earlier this year (electronically recorded by sensors in the target). Conditions were good, 10 shots into a group measuring 4.23 inches, now have a look at how large the average human head is.

I don't know how much training this bloke had,he may not have been a world beater but some of his weapons were modified which suggests he was no mug.
I get it unfortunately some people like aliens. What you gonna do ?

Maybe a little off topic but a guy I used to work with has represented Australia at shooting. If he went ballistic I'd be running.


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Unread post by Abraham » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:45 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:36 pm
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:24 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:20 pm
Ive fired rapid fire weapons, and no its not easy for a novice...especially one like me with bursitis in the shoulder (ended up with bruising)
But Im sure with practice at a rifle range, and with the proper clothing...it would be a lot easier even for a 64yo
Hows those broken windows on the 4th floor Abe?
I didn't mention broken windows.

Maybe the rapid fire gave you a permanent concussion.
Lol.... You reckon asking questions is healthy but get snarky when you're asked some
Nice avoidance
If your going to be a smartarse, dont sook when you cop one in return.

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Unread post by innsaneink » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:49 pm

So how about those 4th floor windows Abe?
Where you reckon the 2nd shooters gunfire came from?
Keep running away

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Unread post by GNR4LIFE » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:50 pm

Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm
Harvey wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:57 pm
Maybe he was a reptilian. Jeez there are some nut jobs out there.

Smart phones and most media platforms simply provide information. If you follow one particular feed, you will doubt anything that does not agree with that.
The problem is that people will always have ideas planted (by right wing racist parents, left wing looney teachers etc) before they are old enough to make up their own mind. With the amount of misinformation and wackjob theories around, they will always be able to find something that supports their preconceived ideas
I looked it up on YouTube and one guy said it wasn't a reptilian but a alien life form that looked reptilian.

On a serious note what has happened in the world when there are so many people that can't face reality. I mean I get there were always some nut jobs but they are out in force now. I think that you nailed the issue. There are so many extreme viewpoints out there now that people get indoctrinated into stupidity without even realising it. Trying to reason with them is like trying to reason with my 16 yo daughter.
It's not the world, it's America. They are certifiably insane. And it gets worse the further south you go. 2 weeks ago, Roy Moore, a senate candidate in Alabama, pulled a gun out on stage at a rally. To the cheers of the audience. And he won.

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Unread post by GNR4LIFE » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:50 pm

Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm
Harvey wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:57 pm
Maybe he was a reptilian. Jeez there are some nut jobs out there.

Smart phones and most media platforms simply provide information. If you follow one particular feed, you will doubt anything that does not agree with that.
The problem is that people will always have ideas planted (by right wing racist parents, left wing looney teachers etc) before they are old enough to make up their own mind. With the amount of misinformation and wackjob theories around, they will always be able to find something that supports their preconceived ideas
I looked it up on YouTube and one guy said it wasn't a reptilian but a alien life form that looked reptilian.

On a serious note what has happened in the world when there are so many people that can't face reality. I mean I get there were always some nut jobs but they are out in force now. I think that you nailed the issue. There are so many extreme viewpoints out there now that people get indoctrinated into stupidity without even realising it. Trying to reason with them is like trying to reason with my 16 yo daughter.
It's not the world, it's America. They are certifiably insane. And it gets worse the further south you go. 2 weeks ago, Roy Moore, a senate candidate in Alabama, pulled a gun out on stage at a rally. To the cheers of the audience. And he won.

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Unread post by Abraham » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:53 pm

willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:41 pm
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:20 pm
willow wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:56 pm

Regarding the bump stock and recoil, it's far from impossible, in fact it's quite easy. The .223 calibre assault rifles are pussy cats to shoot. I've fired a H&K G36 among other assault rifles and the recoil is minimal. Given he had 22,000 people to aim at all he needed to do was point in the direction of the crowd and the bullets will do the rest, 500 metres is no problem for a .223 when your target is the size of a football field.
I've owned a .223 for years, among others, and so I am more than familiar with the caliber.

I am not talking about him being able to hit people, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I am talking about being able to fire constantly for 10 minutes only stopping to change magazine.

Have you shot a .223 recoiling against your shoulder 400 times per minute, for 10 minutes? Because that's what i am talking about.
I've let 2 full 30 round mags go full auto on a H&K G36 which can fire 750 rounds per minute. I had fired, changed mags and fired in under 20 seconds with no pressure on changing mags. I personally didn't find it particularly difficult for a first time crack at it. Again, the tripods he had set up in the room would have made it much easier on his shoulders and if he had previously practiced shooting off a tripod, no probs at all based on my experience. Everything he did suggested he had put considerable thought and effort into it: corner room, high elevated position, windows smashed out, multiple tripods set up...if he was a deranged nutbag it's highly unlikely he would have gone to such lengths. He wanted to make a statement, whether we will ever know why is another story.
Fair enough if you think its easy.

A bump stock requires constant pressure on the inner shoulder to make it work. The tripod setup is irrelevant because the shoulder pressure is what activates the mechanism. The tripod would just stabilise the gun.

I reckon my shoulder would be blue after 10 minutes and a thousand hits from the stock on the same spot. Not sure how a pensioner would fare.

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Unread post by Munk » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:55 pm

^ haha yeah i thought the same way.

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Unread post by Abraham » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:59 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:49 pm
So how about those 4th floor windows Abe?
Where you reckon the 2nd shooters gunfire came from?
Keep running away
I didn't say there was a second shooter. I said people have raised a whole series of questions, and its worth looking into claims before swallowing information blindly. I see you like swallowing... information that is.

Oh, and running away? From you?? Hahaha

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Unread post by tsjonathan » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:08 pm

Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:43 pm
tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:37 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:19 pm
Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 1:24 pm


Asking questions is ALWAYS the intelligent thing to do.

The official line so far is that he acted alone in the hotel room. But how does a 64 year old manage to shoot a modified automatic rifle for 10-15 minutes continuously? I'm much younger than him and physically fit, and i would say it would be nearly impossible for me to do that under normal circumstances. Its not like the movies, shooting any long arm more powerful than a .22 is not a walk in the park.

If he used a bump stock as reported, he would have had this rifle pummeling into his shoulder 400 times per 60 seconds. Unless he is superman, than it verges on the physically impossible.

Information may come out explaining how this was done, but it is a legitimate question to ask when no explanation currently exists.
Your premise is wrong. I'll give an explanation to you to try and explain this. I went out with some fundamentalist muslims for dinner recently. They don't believe that muslims are creating these terrorist attacks including 9/11. They believe it's a government conspiracy to curtail our freedoms.

If you simply replace fundamentalist muslims with right wing nutters the questions as you call them are exactly the same.

When you state it's always intelligent to ask questions what you really mean is it's best to have some dodgy conspiracy theory and search for irrelevant facts to try and justify that conspiracy theory.
I guess the difference is that your Muslim friend would have a bucket load of evidence and common sense and doesn't subscribe to the narrative fed to him. Which is fair enough.
Is it really fair enough ? I don't think it is. I think it's a way to avoid the negative side of Islam. I think it's the exact same thing with the hocus pocus theories regarding mass killings by gun nuts.
Look up operation northwoods if you have time. This was from president Kennedy's time

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Unread post by innsaneink » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:17 pm

Abraham wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:59 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:49 pm
So how about those 4th floor windows Abe?
Where you reckon the 2nd shooters gunfire came from?
Keep running away
I didn't say there was a second shooter. I said people have raised a whole series of questions, and its worth looking into claims before swallowing information blindly. I see you like swallowing... information that is.

Oh, and running away? From you?? Hahaha
You suggested a second shooter, You said you saw videos of gunfire from level 4...but then waffle on about it possibly being something else
Make up your mind abe...
Was it gunfire?
Or something else?
Too many questions and not enough answers is confusing you Id say

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Unread post by Yossarian » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:18 pm

We're talking about a guy who knows he's performing his last action on Earth. He's going to push through the pain until it's physically impossible.

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Unread post by Earl » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:19 pm

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:50 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 5:08 pm
Harvey wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:57 pm
Maybe he was a reptilian. Jeez there are some nut jobs out there.

Smart phones and most media platforms simply provide information. If you follow one particular feed, you will doubt anything that does not agree with that.
The problem is that people will always have ideas planted (by right wing racist parents, left wing looney teachers etc) before they are old enough to make up their own mind. With the amount of misinformation and wackjob theories around, they will always be able to find something that supports their preconceived ideas
I looked it up on YouTube and one guy said it wasn't a reptilian but a alien life form that looked reptilian.

On a serious note what has happened in the world when there are so many people that can't face reality. I mean I get there were always some nut jobs but they are out in force now. I think that you nailed the issue. There are so many extreme viewpoints out there now that people get indoctrinated into stupidity without even realising it. Trying to reason with them is like trying to reason with my 16 yo daughter.
It's not the world, it's America. They are certifiably insane. And it gets worse the further south you go. 2 weeks ago, Roy Moore, a senate candidate in Alabama, pulled a gun out on stage at a rally. To the cheers of the audience. And he won.
Honestly this story is tops and I don't even think you are joking. There are posters on this thread that actually believe in a lot of this insanity. It couldn't be one person it had to be the Illuminati.

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Unread post by Yossarian » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:26 pm

tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:08 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:43 pm
tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:37 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:19 pm


Your premise is wrong. I'll give an explanation to you to try and explain this. I went out with some fundamentalist muslims for dinner recently. They don't believe that muslims are creating these terrorist attacks including 9/11. They believe it's a government conspiracy to curtail our freedoms.

If you simply replace fundamentalist muslims with right wing nutters the questions as you call them are exactly the same.

When you state it's always intelligent to ask questions what you really mean is it's best to have some dodgy conspiracy theory and search for irrelevant facts to try and justify that conspiracy theory.
I guess the difference is that your Muslim friend would have a bucket load of evidence and common sense and doesn't subscribe to the narrative fed to him. Which is fair enough.
Is it really fair enough ? I don't think it is. I think it's a way to avoid the negative side of Islam. I think it's the exact same thing with the hocus pocus theories regarding mass killings by gun nuts.
Look up operation northwoods if you have time. This was from president Kennedy's time
What point are you trying to make here?

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Unread post by tsjonathan » Fri 06 Oct, 2017 7:13 pm

Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:26 pm
tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 6:08 pm
Earl wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 4:43 pm
tsjonathan wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 3:37 pm


I guess the difference is that your Muslim friend would have a bucket load of evidence and common sense and doesn't subscribe to the narrative fed to him. Which is fair enough.
Is it really fair enough ? I don't think it is. I think it's a way to avoid the negative side of Islam. I think it's the exact same thing with the hocus pocus theories regarding mass killings by gun nuts.
Look up operation northwoods if you have time. This was from president Kennedy's time
What point are you trying to make here?
Are you being sarcastic are you seriously asking me? You seriously need me to explain it to you? I really don't need to do that, unless English isn't your first language?

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