America - Gun Control

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Munk
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Re: America - Gun Control

Unread post by Munk » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:33 am

Yossarian wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:34 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:12 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:29 pm
Munk wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:21 pm


There are thousands of documented cases every year in America where john citizen foils a robbery or an incident due to the fact he is carrying.
Americas shame isnt gun ownership, it is lack of care for the mentally ill.
The Las Vegas shooter had no recorded mental health issues as far as I know. He was however able to buy 33 guns in the last 12 months. Even by American standards that's ridiculous.

I have no idea whether your claim of thousands of those incidents is true. I do know that gun homicide statistics in the USA are miles over the per capita rates in other western countries. I'd dare say there are many examples of nervous Joe Citizens killing innocent parties and family member. Or themselves whether by accident or design.
Statistics formed through data retrieval from the Centres for Disease Control points to gun homicide rates decreasing year on year since 1993 in America whilst gun ownership has rapidly increased. 3.6 gun related homicides/100k people at the last recording. The FBI backs this up. Excluding handguns, you are just as likely to be murdered by a knife.
It's past midnight so I'm not going to look at the causality but a reduction in per capita homicides is only impressive in you're not coming from a very high base. As it stands now it's still massively above other developed countries - second place isn't even close. Gun ownership may be up but is the number of gun owners up or is it blown out by individuals owning many guns?

Excluding hand guns? That's a massive exclusion.
Wrong. Its a common misconception you are making. Americas gun related homicide rate is dwarfed by countries such as Brazil and Colombia.


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Unread post by Munk » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:50 am

voice of reason wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 7:48 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:12 am
Statistics formed through data retrieval from the Centres for Disease Control points to gun homicide rates decreasing year on year since 1993 in America whilst gun ownership has rapidly increased. 3.6 gun related homicides/100k people at the last recording. The FBI backs this up. Excluding handguns, you are just as likely to be murdered by a knife.
I'm sure your stats will be comforting to the families of the >11,000 dead from gunshots this year.
I agree that number is terrible but simply banning guns would do little to decrease that number in my opinion as a large portion of those deaths are crime related through the projects and criminals can always get guns if they want them.

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Unread post by Yossarian » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:59 am

Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:33 am
Yossarian wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:34 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:12 am
Yossarian wrote:
Fri 06 Oct, 2017 11:29 pm


The Las Vegas shooter had no recorded mental health issues as far as I know. He was however able to buy 33 guns in the last 12 months. Even by American standards that's ridiculous.

I have no idea whether your claim of thousands of those incidents is true. I do know that gun homicide statistics in the USA are miles over the per capita rates in other western countries. I'd dare say there are many examples of nervous Joe Citizens killing innocent parties and family member. Or themselves whether by accident or design.
Statistics formed through data retrieval from the Centres for Disease Control points to gun homicide rates decreasing year on year since 1993 in America whilst gun ownership has rapidly increased. 3.6 gun related homicides/100k people at the last recording. The FBI backs this up. Excluding handguns, you are just as likely to be murdered by a knife.
It's past midnight so I'm not going to look at the causality but a reduction in per capita homicides is only impressive in you're not coming from a very high base. As it stands now it's still massively above other developed countries - second place isn't even close. Gun ownership may be up but is the number of gun owners up or is it blown out by individuals owning many guns?

Excluding hand guns? That's a massive exclusion.
Wrong. Its a common misconception you are making. Americas gun related homicide rate is dwarfed by countries such as Brazil and Colombia.
Developed countries, developed. We're talking OECD, first world countries, so certainly not Columbia and probably not Brazil.
But if you're relying on Columbia to beat your homicide rates it's not a ringing endorsement is it? Beating countries will terrible gun violence including the murder capital of the world isn't evidence things are ok.

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Unread post by Munk » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:08 am

No but it adds weight to the argument that anti gun people are reactionist as their claims are easily debunked. I saw a commentator on CNN rage on that no one needs an M16...lol yep thats why they have already been banned yonks ago. They speak from an emotional viewpoint rather than factual and they come across as alarmist only.

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Unread post by Tiger Come Lately » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:20 am

Yossarian wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:59 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:33 am
Yossarian wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:34 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:12 am


Statistics formed through data retrieval from the Centres for Disease Control points to gun homicide rates decreasing year on year since 1993 in America whilst gun ownership has rapidly increased. 3.6 gun related homicides/100k people at the last recording. The FBI backs this up. Excluding handguns, you are just as likely to be murdered by a knife.
It's past midnight so I'm not going to look at the causality but a reduction in per capita homicides is only impressive in you're not coming from a very high base. As it stands now it's still massively above other developed countries - second place isn't even close. Gun ownership may be up but is the number of gun owners up or is it blown out by individuals owning many guns?

Excluding hand guns? That's a massive exclusion.
Wrong. Its a common misconception you are making. Americas gun related homicide rate is dwarfed by countries such as Brazil and Colombia.
Developed countries, developed. We're talking OECD, first world countries, so certainly not Columbia and probably not Brazil.
But if you're relying on Columbia to beat your homicide rates it's not a ringing endorsement is it? Beating countries will terrible gun violence including the murder capital of the world isn't evidence things are ok.
Why stop at Brazil or Columbia, why not chuck in Afghanistan or Syria or A whole bunch of middle eastern countries.


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Unread post by voice of reason » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:32 am

Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:50 am
I agree that number is terrible but simply banning guns would do little to decrease that number in my opinion as a large portion of those deaths are crime related through the projects and criminals can always get guns if they want them.
You're entitled to your opinion but it isn't logical. You believe that because 'criminals can always get guns' that we should simply keep it legal for them. With respect, it's a non-sensical argument that would be at home coming from the head of the NRA. At the moment, criminals can simply walk into Walmart and buy that military rifle or handgun they want. You can even have a mental illness and do the same thing. It is ridiculous that an intelligent society would think this is acceptable.
America is a basket case and the problem began many years ago. That doesn't mean you don't at least try to fix it and the start is better gun control. Reports show that making it slightly harder to commit a crime makes a dramatic difference to the amount of crime (can't recall where I saw it but it surfaced this week after the shootings). Make it 'slightly' more difficult to get firearms and I have no doubt that eventually there will be a reduction in gun related deaths.
The problem is it will take years to see the effects because of the amount of guns already in circulation and after a week the NRA will say 'look, it didn't work, throw out those gun laws'.
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Unread post by Munk » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:43 am

voice of reason wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:32 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:50 am
I agree that number is terrible but simply banning guns would do little to decrease that number in my opinion as a large portion of those deaths are crime related through the projects and criminals can always get guns if they want them.
You're entitled to your opinion but it isn't logical. You believe that because 'criminals can always get guns' that we should simply keep it legal for them. With respect, it's a non-sensical argument that would be at home coming from the head of the NRA. At the moment, criminals can simply walk into Walmart and buy that military rifle or handgun they want. You can even have a mental illness and do the same thing. It is ridiculous that an intelligent society would think this is acceptable.
America is a basket case and the problem began many years ago. That doesn't mean you don't at least try to fix it and the start is better gun control. Reports show that making it slightly harder to commit a crime makes a dramatic difference to the amount of crime (can't recall where I saw it but it surfaced this week after the shootings). Make it 'slightly' more difficult to get firearms and I have no doubt that eventually there will be a reduction in gun related deaths.
The problem is it will take years to see the effects because of the amount of guns already in circulation and after a week the NRA will say 'look, it didn't work, throw out those gun laws'.
Here comes the emotion.
Federal background checks are already in place for criminals and mentail illness sufferers. You are dead wrong. America is not a basket case at all. Have you ever been there? Reports surfaced this week after the shootings did they? How reactionist. Proves the point.

BTW Yossarian America is 4th in the OECD rankings. Your claim is factually wrong. People spread more lies on this issue than any other.

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Unread post by Earl » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:45 am

voice of reason wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:32 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:50 am
I agree that number is terrible but simply banning guns would do little to decrease that number in my opinion as a large portion of those deaths are crime related through the projects and criminals can always get guns if they want them.
You're entitled to your opinion but it isn't logical. You believe that because 'criminals can always get guns' that we should simply keep it legal for them. With respect, it's a non-sensical argument that would be at home coming from the head of the NRA. At the moment, criminals can simply walk into Walmart and buy that military rifle or handgun they want. You can even have a mental illness and do the same thing. It is ridiculous that an intelligent society would think this is acceptable.
America is a basket case and the problem began many years ago. That doesn't mean you don't at least try to fix it and the start is better gun control. Reports show that making it slightly harder to commit a crime makes a dramatic difference to the amount of crime (can't recall where I saw it but it surfaced this week after the shootings). Make it 'slightly' more difficult to get firearms and I have no doubt that eventually there will be a reduction in gun related deaths.
The problem is it will take years to see the effects because of the amount of guns already in circulation and after a week the NRA will say 'look, it didn't work, throw out those gun laws'.
Exactly. The point is some action should be taken and we should see the irrational arguments that gun nuts/alt-right put up to try as simply being illogical and trying to obfuscate the issue.

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Unread post by Earl » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:47 am

Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:43 am
voice of reason wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:32 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:50 am
I agree that number is terrible but simply banning guns would do little to decrease that number in my opinion as a large portion of those deaths are crime related through the projects and criminals can always get guns if they want them.
You're entitled to your opinion but it isn't logical. You believe that because 'criminals can always get guns' that we should simply keep it legal for them. With respect, it's a non-sensical argument that would be at home coming from the head of the NRA. At the moment, criminals can simply walk into Walmart and buy that military rifle or handgun they want. You can even have a mental illness and do the same thing. It is ridiculous that an intelligent society would think this is acceptable.
America is a basket case and the problem began many years ago. That doesn't mean you don't at least try to fix it and the start is better gun control. Reports show that making it slightly harder to commit a crime makes a dramatic difference to the amount of crime (can't recall where I saw it but it surfaced this week after the shootings). Make it 'slightly' more difficult to get firearms and I have no doubt that eventually there will be a reduction in gun related deaths.
The problem is it will take years to see the effects because of the amount of guns already in circulation and after a week the NRA will say 'look, it didn't work, throw out those gun laws'.
Here comes the emotion.
Federal background checks are already in place for criminals and mentail illness sufferers. You are dead wrong. America is not a basket case at all. Have you ever been there? Reports surfaced this week after the shootings did they? How reactionist. Proves the point.

BTW Yossarian America is 4th in the OECD rankings. Your claim is factually wrong. People spread more lies on this issue than any other.
How many people were killed and by what guns ? Has this happened previously and how many times ?

It's an issue. Just because you don't want to face that issue doesn't mean it's not an issue.

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Unread post by voice of reason » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:53 am

Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:43 am
Here comes the emotion.
Federal background checks are already in place for criminals and mentail illness sufferers. You are dead wrong. America is not a basket case at all. Have you ever been there? Reports surfaced this week after the shootings did they? How reactionist. Proves the point.
Do you really expect 600 people being shot not to elicit emotion or reaction?
Have I ever been to the US? Well as it turns out yes, probably 20 or more times as I'm married to an American. I still have many relatives there and my wife and daughter were there only a month ago. Not that any of that has anything to do with this discussion.
You seem to think reacting to a problem is bad. Please explain why because it makes no sense. If your house was broken into would you react and try to make it more secure. I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove but so far you're not convincing anyone.
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Unread post by Munk » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 10:04 am

It is an issue, however it is not as big of an issue as the anti gun lobby will have you believe. I believe in stricter controls such as banning devices that can turn semi auto into auto but banning guns altogether is a bridge too far.

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Unread post by magpiecol » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 10:13 am

Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 10:04 am
It is an issue, however it is not as big of an issue as the anti gun lobby will have you believe. I believe in stricter controls such as banning devices that can turn semi auto into auto but banning guns altogether is a bridge too far.
Well said Munk.

People should find out the facts before commenting. Sure, there should be discussions, but all some people can say is "we must do something" without offering any ideas as to what that something is.

:blah :blah

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Unread post by innsaneink » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 10:17 am

If nothing changes... Nothing changes.
Something has to be done... There's way too many guns in the U.S. already and these massacres just see those figures rise.
Ingrained attitudes are difficult to change though

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Unread post by Munk » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 10:31 am

Discovering what the murderous intent of rampages like this were, i.e. what fuelled it, would go further towards preventing this happening again than banning guns would. Unfortunately the assailants are almost always killed before this knowledge can be gained and assessed.

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Unread post by Yossarian » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 11:29 am

Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:43 am
voice of reason wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 9:32 am
Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 8:50 am
I agree that number is terrible but simply banning guns would do little to decrease that number in my opinion as a large portion of those deaths are crime related through the projects and criminals can always get guns if they want them.
You're entitled to your opinion but it isn't logical. You believe that because 'criminals can always get guns' that we should simply keep it legal for them. With respect, it's a non-sensical argument that would be at home coming from the head of the NRA. At the moment, criminals can simply walk into Walmart and buy that military rifle or handgun they want. You can even have a mental illness and do the same thing. It is ridiculous that an intelligent society would think this is acceptable.
America is a basket case and the problem began many years ago. That doesn't mean you don't at least try to fix it and the start is better gun control. Reports show that making it slightly harder to commit a crime makes a dramatic difference to the amount of crime (can't recall where I saw it but it surfaced this week after the shootings). Make it 'slightly' more difficult to get firearms and I have no doubt that eventually there will be a reduction in gun related deaths.
The problem is it will take years to see the effects because of the amount of guns already in circulation and after a week the NRA will say 'look, it didn't work, throw out those gun laws'.
Here comes the emotion.
Federal background checks are already in place for criminals and mentail illness sufferers. You are dead wrong. America is not a basket case at all. Have you ever been there? Reports surfaced this week after the shootings did they? How reactionist. Proves the point.

BTW Yossarian America is 4th in the OECD rankings. Your claim is factually wrong. People spread more lies on this issue than any other.
What 3 OECD countries have higher per capita homicide rates than the USA? I'm happy to discuss the stats but let's cut back on the personal stuff.

Edit: I think I saw the same graph. Turkey, Mexico and Estonia (oddly enough) had higher per capita homicide rates. That was total rather than gun homicides. But when you're beating Mexico and Turkey it's not a great claim. No idea what happens in Estonia. I'd have to look closer at that.

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Unread post by Munk » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:12 pm

I appologise, wasnt trying to be personal.
People do make big claims about America that isnt always true. Especialy when it comes to emotive issues such as this. I blame the media bias and celebrities using their platforms as pulpits for spreading the misinformation. They have the time to fully research their claims but choose not to.

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Unread post by Yossarian » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:37 pm

Munk wrote:
Sat 07 Oct, 2017 12:12 pm
I appologise, wasnt trying to be personal.
People do make big claims about America that isnt always true. Especialy when it comes to emotive issues such as this. I blame the media bias and celebrities using their platforms as pulpits for spreading the misinformation. They have the time to fully research their claims but choose not to.
No problem. Prevailing opinion on Estonian crime seems to be that it's all drunk Russians!

I'm not a gun person. I don't think anyone who doesn't have a need for one should own one. It's just my view. I don't think they make anyone safer.

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Unread post by Earl » Sat 07 Oct, 2017 1:27 pm

The thing is America has so many mass murders powered by guns. Guns don't make a country safer they make it less safe and rampages like the one that just occurred to me are unacceptable in a civilised country.

I suppose gun ownership is part of American life but surely there can be some stricter regulations that over time will help minimise these events.

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