Referees and commentators

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Telltails
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Re: Referees and commentators

Post by Telltails » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 12:43 pm

krayola wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 12:05 pm
Telltails wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 11:37 am
For those who applaud this expect more refereeing decisions to have an impact on the outcome of games. The more they blow the whistle the more mistakes will be made.
Adding pressure on an already difficult job will not resolve anything.
Very easy to be supportive of a crackdown in games where your team is not effected.
Can guarantee the same rules will not apply at SOO time.
The referees rarely impact the decision of the game. What happened last week is a rarity. The players have by far the biggest say on the outcome and generally only get upset when threatened with losing.

The ref did not cause Kieran Foran to miss his penalty from in front yesterday nor did he help Isaako or Brooks kick their clutch field goals and he didn't contribute to Nofa dropping the ball four times or Thompson missing two chances in the in-goal.
A referees judgement at any given point can and regularly effects the outcomes of games. That doesnt discount the performance of players, but in an even contest between two teams I think you are kidding yourself that refereeing decisions are not impactful on outcomes.


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Post by Milky » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 12:50 pm

The game is boring with so many penalties, let it flow.

The more penalties there are, the less tired the defence. You will see less breaks, halfbacks will disappear etc.

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Post by tig_prmz » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 1:25 pm

said the same thing in another thread

i love hearing opinions of sterlo, johns, gould, fittler etc but they need to give them in their coulumns, footy shows etc not while the game is going on.
My Round 1 Team 2018

1. lolo 2. noffa 3. suli 4. milne 5. fonua
6. reynolds 7. brooks
8. packer 9. ET 10. Twal
11. McQuen 12. Lawrence 13. Eiso
14. Matulino 15. McIllwrick 16. Sue 17. Aloiai
18. Marsters 19. Benji 20. Grant 21. K Naiqama
Next: Liddle, MCK, Felise, MWZ, Thompson, Rochow, Gamble

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Post by innsaneink » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 1:38 pm

tig_prmz wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 1:25 pm
said the same thing in another thread

i love hearing opinions of sterlo, johns, gould, fittler etc but they need to give them in their coulumns, footy shows etc not while the game is going on.
Why?
If It's relevant to the game they're calling I don't see a problem.
What I have a Problem with is Rabs talking about MKR and Gus babbling on about which direction Grrystanes is

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Post by innsaneink » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 1:43 pm

Swordy wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 12:16 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 10:08 am
Swordy wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 9:21 am
The ref issue either positive or negative can stop today, right now, if the players played within the rules and the coaches stopped coaching them to break the rules.

It really is that simple.
Do you honestly think 272 players will, for 80 minutes play 100% to the rules every single week?

Come on.... :crazy
Of course not Ink, but simply, there is probably more to be gained by any coach or player in using that same time spent learning and practicing to flaunt the rules, and using that time to come up with more attacking and defensive patterns that you can control through execution, not just hoping you get a penalty or not based on the mood of the referee.
I may be wrong but I don't think they practise being offside and forward passes.... They would practise line speed and flat passing and occasionally that goes awry.
The wrestle is where they practice and refine.. All clubs


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Post by Tiger Steve » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:29 pm

I listen to Fox not ch 9 but I’m interested in Sterlo’s take on the refereeing- can anyone share what he said?
“Peanuts! Get ya peanuts - in the shell or sugar coated!” Leichhardt memories.

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Post by innsaneink » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:41 pm

Tiger Steve wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:29 pm
I listen to Fox not ch 9 but I’m interested in Sterlo’s take on the refereeing- can anyone share what he said?
He wasnt on last night, Bracey Lockyer & Vautin

edit: He was probably on the earlier game...dont recall what he said but im sure he'll say something tomorrow

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Post by Russell » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:51 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:41 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:29 pm
I listen to Fox not ch 9 but I’m interested in Sterlo’s take on the refereeing- can anyone share what he said?
He wasnt on last night, Bracey Lockyer & Vautin
Yep it was fantastic - Bracey is a diplomat, Lockyer (Mr Boring) and a has been who is well passed his used by date.

Vautin talking about stuff that the game has passed long ago (training in the ?, referring to towns as joints etc.) the guy is an embarrassment.

We finally get him off the Footy show and now he is ruining the games being on the commentating bench.

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Post by Tiger Steve » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:07 pm

innsaneink wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:41 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 2:29 pm
I listen to Fox not ch 9 but I’m interested in Sterlo’s take on the refereeing- can anyone share what he said?
He wasnt on last night, Bracey Lockyer & Vautin

edit: He was probably on the earlier game...dont recall what he said but im sure he'll say something tomorrow
Ok thanks Ink. I thought I read in a post Sterlo had given comments but I must have read wrong. I don’t listen to many commentators but I like Sterling - always seems close to the mark I reckon
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Post by jirskyr » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:29 pm

southerntiger wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 12:18 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 10:03 am
Players have been offside, punching/stripping balls out, trying to get away with whatever they can since 1908.
People that think this will clean up the game aren't being realistic.... Professional top level sportsmen will Always push the letter... Even competitive kids in park footy will... The player that plays by the rules sees another that gets away with something the ref misses and thinks " I need to compete with my rival, bugger the ref, I'll take a chance".
I don't think players will change... if the refs don't change we're in for a long dull frustrating season... Tho I do agree with GCT it appears to be helping teams like us.
The refs will relent... They always do...but they'll come out and say they've done what they set out to do... They'll treat the fans like mugs.
These butt ugly games were seeing now cannot continue
Mate no one thinks this will stop people breaking the rules. It will continue to happen. But the game got really boring over the last few years due to Bellamy Ball. Teams went into games with the deliberate strategy of committing penalties close to their line.

Hopefully this crackdown will redress the balance and we will be back to where we were before the name Craig Bellamy was uttered in the coaching echelons.
I agree completely with ink. Teams will push the boundaries now and forever, and if anyone thinks smashing a rule over their heads will make everything different, they are wrong.

A crack-down is not supposed to take 4+ rounds and 30 penalties per game to sink in. Obviously the players and coaches cannot easily meet the new expectations set by the ref, esp on the 10m, and I am surprised the number of people on here who think it is cleaning up the game.

Rugby league is not a clean game, never was, never will be. If you want to catch each and every bloke offside 10m then you will blow a million penalties because 10m is hard to retreat all game, whether it be fatigue, speed of play, desperation, intentional abuse etc. They blow a million technical penalties in rugby and they always have, and the players haven't magically stopped conceding penalties, even though their goals are worth 3, they still do it all game.

In regards to southerntiger, totally disagree. There is some concept within this thread that the crackdown is centred on Melbourne, if I understand correctly, that Storm are the benchmark for bending the rules and are "finally being called out for it". I can agree that Melbourne has been one of the best teams at taking every rule to its edge, but they are also dominant because they've been a damn fine club with a golden era of elite players complemented by terrific coaching, a winning culture and good scouting. Yes they were the best at the wrestle and most everything else, and everyone wanted to copy them. I expect when the dust settles on this refereeing crackdown, Melbourne will still be one of the best sides at manipulating and testing the refs, no matter where the refs choose to focus their attention, Melbourne will find another way, their management and players are too clever.

Melbourne's season 2017 IMO was far from boring, it was an example of absolutely superior discipline that permitted them to then attack with real flourish, and I found their games, begrudgingly, to be of real high quality.

I'm not against penalising teams that give away goal-line penalties, but that's not only what's happening right now, they are blowing the pea out of the whistle in mid-field and as teams bring the ball out of trouble. In fact Tigers have become a team seemingly willing to give away those exact goal-line penalties southern speaks of, therefore the crackdown will ultimately hurt us?

Storm this year have conceded 3 more penalties (45) than Sharks and Panthers (43), 4 more than Rabbits (41). Obv the other teams still have a game in hand, but it's not as if Storm are by far the worst. Everyone is getting caned.

Refs are also not going to bin more than 1 player per side at any one time. Did Lewis or Smith deserved to be binned last night? Absolutely not, silly decisions. You could have binned any of the players for what happened. Then later in the match when it got spiteful, refs didn't bin anyone at all, not Chambers for his choke hold nor Asofa-Solomona for his cannonball.

Then that fight at the end... refs despite penalising the butt out of the game, totally lost control of it. What does Princess Leia say in Star Wars? "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers". And by systems I mean games.

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Post by Marshall_magic » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:48 pm

It astounds me how much the referees are blamed nowadays. Their job is the pull up infringements in the game and enforce the rules, NOT to create a spectacle. That's the players and coaches job. If you're not happy with the amount of penalties.....stop giving them away. They should be criticised for the howlers like the Klein decision, but the 33 penalties last night is a product of two ill-disciplined teams.

Sooner or later one of two things will happen
1. The referees will "put the whistle away" and the rucks will become a contest of who can cheat the best
2. The coaches will start to give away fewer penalties in an attempt to gain an advantage.

I sincerely hope the latter is true.

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Post by formerguest » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:55 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:29 pm
southerntiger wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 12:18 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 10:03 am
Players have been offside, punching/stripping balls out, trying to get away with whatever they can since 1908.
People that think this will clean up the game aren't being realistic.... Professional top level sportsmen will Always push the letter... Even competitive kids in park footy will... The player that plays by the rules sees another that gets away with something the ref misses and thinks " I need to compete with my rival, bugger the ref, I'll take a chance".
I don't think players will change... if the refs don't change we're in for a long dull frustrating season... Tho I do agree with GCT it appears to be helping teams like us.
The refs will relent... They always do...but they'll come out and say they've done what they set out to do... They'll treat the fans like mugs.
These butt ugly games were seeing now cannot continue
Mate no one thinks this will stop people breaking the rules. It will continue to happen. But the game got really boring over the last few years due to Bellamy Ball. Teams went into games with the deliberate strategy of committing penalties close to their line.

Hopefully this crackdown will redress the balance and we will be back to where we were before the name Craig Bellamy was uttered in the coaching echelons.
I agree completely with ink. Teams will push the boundaries now and forever, and if anyone thinks smashing a rule over their heads will make everything different, they are wrong.

A crack-down is not supposed to take 4+ rounds and 30 penalties per game to sink in. Obviously the players and coaches cannot easily meet the new expectations set by the ref, esp on the 10m, and I am surprised the number of people on here who think it is cleaning up the game.

Rugby league is not a clean game, never was, never will be. If you want to catch each and every bloke offside 10m then you will blow a million penalties because 10m is hard to retreat all game, whether it be fatigue, speed of play, desperation, intentional abuse etc. They blow a million technical penalties in rugby and they always have, and the players haven't magically stopped conceding penalties, even though their goals are worth 3, they still do it all game.

In regards to southerntiger, totally disagree. There is some concept within this thread that the crackdown is centred on Melbourne, if I understand correctly, that Storm are the benchmark for bending the rules and are "finally being called out for it". I can agree that Melbourne has been one of the best teams at taking every rule to its edge, but they are also dominant because they've been a damn fine club with a golden era of elite players complemented by terrific coaching, a winning culture and good scouting. Yes they were the best at the wrestle and most everything else, and everyone wanted to copy them. I expect when the dust settles on this refereeing crackdown, Melbourne will still be one of the best sides at manipulating and testing the refs, no matter where the refs choose to focus their attention, Melbourne will find another way, their management and players are too clever.

Melbourne's season 2017 IMO was far from boring, it was an example of absolutely superior discipline that permitted them to then attack with real flourish, and I found their games, begrudgingly, to be of real high quality.

I'm not against penalising teams that give away goal-line penalties, but that's not only what's happening right now, they are blowing the pea out of the whistle in mid-field and as teams bring the ball out of trouble. In fact Tigers have become a team seemingly willing to give away those exact goal-line penalties southern speaks of, therefore the crackdown will ultimately hurt us?

Storm this year have conceded 3 more penalties (45) than Sharks and Panthers (43), 4 more than Rabbits (41). Obv the other teams still have a game in hand, but it's not as if Storm are by far the worst. Everyone is getting caned.

Refs are also not going to bin more than 1 player per side at any one time. Did Lewis or Smith deserved to be binned last night? Absolutely not, silly decisions. You could have binned any of the players for what happened. Then later in the match when it got spiteful, refs didn't bin anyone at all, not Chambers for his choke hold nor Asofa-Solomona for his cannonball.

Then that fight at the end... refs despite penalising the butt out of the game, totally lost control of it. What does Princess Leia say in Star Wars? "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers". And by systems I mean games.
Didn't Cammy get marched ten metres for dissent and immediately mouthed at the ref again?

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Post by jirskyr » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:57 pm

Go You Good Things wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 9:35 am
jirskyr wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 9:12 am
Nobody asked me the first time around, I dont want 30 penalties per game, kills the momentum and emphasises penalty goals.

I agree w the commentators. Sure players bend the rulea a little but with smart leeway, esp when it doesnt result in points, you can ref an exciting and fair spectacle. Origin is always like this.

But 33 penalties, I didnt ask for that. Fatty is right, if your look at every play you could potentially penalise someone, 26 players are never 100% within the rules.

So if you penalise hard, IMO all you do is emphasise even more the penalties you missed to blow, like the Tigers GP last week.

I never realised we had such a problem with foot on the ball and the 10m in previous seasons, didn't realise it was such a blight that needed aggressive rectification.
RE: the foot on the ball. I've always seen it as an indiscretion, and not just " a silly rule". When you just lift your foot and roll the ball on it's belly to your dummy half . . . it rolls at an even speed, you don't waste micro-seconds lifting your foot to contact the ball, it rolls behind you without any wobble and is predictable and simple for your DH to pick it up.
All of that gives you a distinct advantage over someone who plays the ball as per the rules.
An advantage very similar to say a forward pass.
If we choose to ignore the PTB correctly rule, why get our knickers in a twist over 9 or 10 forward passes in a game ?

And re the commentators . . . . funny how they can look at a team ( say the Storm ) stand offside, wrestle the neck, do the Cameron flop, throw DH blatant forward passes . . . and never say one word, yet now they are laying into referees for cleaning up all the indiscretions that they casually turned a blind eye to for the past 30 years.

And yes J, the penalty goal is gonna feature a lot more till this sorts itself out. Interesting times ahead . . . .
Well I'm happy with the play the ball, that's been sorted out in a round or two, which is the normal type of crackdown we see. Refs got right into players in the trials, it lasted maybe 1.5 rounds, now most players make an attempt to roll their foot. It's still a weird rule, you don't actually have to touch it w your foot, just make a decent attempt. But so be it, every player is in control of his own PTB, same as his own ball-handling. I don't think offensive PTB penalties are forming much of the current penalty run.

I think also you misunderstand the commentators, if we are watching the same channel. I don't think they are against cleaning up facets of the game, I think they are against blowing 30 penalties per match to achieve that. Historically they've focused on individual components of the game, given the coaches a heads up, then we see a periodic crackdown to improve obedience.

But 2018 is something else, they are penalising everything, sending blokes to the bin for backchat etc. If you try to police all the rules to their maximum then you turn league into rugby, a technical, boring penalty-kick game with limited attacking momentum, constant stoppages, professional law-breakers and ultimately no true reduction in penalties.

So the commentators don't want to see a million penalties, doesn't matter why. It ruins the spectacle, frustrates players, kills attacking momentum, causes unforced errors. It makes for worse games, where nobody can seem to score and teams love kicking penalty goals. And then close games get decided by stupid technical penalties, e.g. Tigers v Broncos.

It is feasible, absolutely, that these penalty crack-downs will produce a new style of competition where players are all on better behaviour and adhering better to the spirit of the rules - no hands in the ruck, always two feet behind the line etc. But on the other hand, it may never happen, they may be setting a standard that professional footballers just can't meet. I don't see any team emerging as clean-skins right now, they are all giving away 10-20 penalties per match and it's getting worse. Tigers have a new-found grit in 2018 and frankly that grit involves giving away large quantities of penalties if it means not letting the opposition breach your line.

It might ultimately open up the game and force teams to be less testing the rules, but I think the minute you let down the teams go back to the way they were, pushing the boundaries. And in the process, it's creating ugly football, where teams are becoming happy to scrap, defend, sledge and ultimately be encouraged to give away more penalties to hold their lines.

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Post by jirskyr » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:59 pm

formerguest wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:55 pm
Didn't Cammy get marched ten metres for dissent and immediately mouthed at the ref again?
Hard to tell exactly. I'm not fan of binning for dissent, just keep marching them. Too heavy-handed.

But if they want to do that, fine, bin all dissenters every time. If it's consistency people want, then actually the penalty counts need to increase, they need to be up towards 60 per match to catch the other 50% of infringements. And they need to sit players down at least twice as often.

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Post by hobbo » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 4:06 pm

formerguest wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:55 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:29 pm
southerntiger wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 12:18 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 10:03 am
Players have been offside, punching/stripping balls out, trying to get away with whatever they can since 1908.
People that think this will clean up the game aren't being realistic.... Professional top level sportsmen will Always push the letter... Even competitive kids in park footy will... The player that plays by the rules sees another that gets away with something the ref misses and thinks " I need to compete with my rival, bugger the ref, I'll take a chance".
I don't think players will change... if the refs don't change we're in for a long dull frustrating season... Tho I do agree with GCT it appears to be helping teams like us.
The refs will relent... They always do...but they'll come out and say they've done what they set out to do... They'll treat the fans like mugs.
These butt ugly games were seeing now cannot continue
Mate no one thinks this will stop people breaking the rules. It will continue to happen. But the game got really boring over the last few years due to Bellamy Ball. Teams went into games with the deliberate strategy of committing penalties close to their line.

Hopefully this crackdown will redress the balance and we will be back to where we were before the name Craig Bellamy was uttered in the coaching echelons.
I agree completely with ink. Teams will push the boundaries now and forever, and if anyone thinks smashing a rule over their heads will make everything different, they are wrong.

A crack-down is not supposed to take 4+ rounds and 30 penalties per game to sink in. Obviously the players and coaches cannot easily meet the new expectations set by the ref, esp on the 10m, and I am surprised the number of people on here who think it is cleaning up the game.

Rugby league is not a clean game, never was, never will be. If you want to catch each and every bloke offside 10m then you will blow a million penalties because 10m is hard to retreat all game, whether it be fatigue, speed of play, desperation, intentional abuse etc. They blow a million technical penalties in rugby and they always have, and the players haven't magically stopped conceding penalties, even though their goals are worth 3, they still do it all game.

In regards to southerntiger, totally disagree. There is some concept within this thread that the crackdown is centred on Melbourne, if I understand correctly, that Storm are the benchmark for bending the rules and are "finally being called out for it". I can agree that Melbourne has been one of the best teams at taking every rule to its edge, but they are also dominant because they've been a damn fine club with a golden era of elite players complemented by terrific coaching, a winning culture and good scouting. Yes they were the best at the wrestle and most everything else, and everyone wanted to copy them. I expect when the dust settles on this refereeing crackdown, Melbourne will still be one of the best sides at manipulating and testing the refs, no matter where the refs choose to focus their attention, Melbourne will find another way, their management and players are too clever.

Melbourne's season 2017 IMO was far from boring, it was an example of absolutely superior discipline that permitted them to then attack with real flourish, and I found their games, begrudgingly, to be of real high quality.

I'm not against penalising teams that give away goal-line penalties, but that's not only what's happening right now, they are blowing the pea out of the whistle in mid-field and as teams bring the ball out of trouble. In fact Tigers have become a team seemingly willing to give away those exact goal-line penalties southern speaks of, therefore the crackdown will ultimately hurt us?

Storm this year have conceded 3 more penalties (45) than Sharks and Panthers (43), 4 more than Rabbits (41). Obv the other teams still have a game in hand, but it's not as if Storm are by far the worst. Everyone is getting caned.

Refs are also not going to bin more than 1 player per side at any one time. Did Lewis or Smith deserved to be binned last night? Absolutely not, silly decisions. You could have binned any of the players for what happened. Then later in the match when it got spiteful, refs didn't bin anyone at all, not Chambers for his choke hold nor Asofa-Solomona for his cannonball.

Then that fight at the end... refs despite penalising the butt out of the game, totally lost control of it. What does Princess Leia say in Star Wars? "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers". And by systems I mean games.
Didn't Cammy get marched ten metres for dissent and immediately mouthed at the ref again?
Correct
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Post by TrueTiger » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 4:07 pm

There have been some terrific posts in this thread and all with great points and opinions....I would like to say that in my opinion Rugby League is just that the game itself,the higher echelon who want to speed the game up and make it more exciting and titillating are missing the basic ground rules on which our great game was built..Each team went out for 80 minutes and played hard football within the rules of the game...

get back your 10 ...
don't forward pass..
don't be infront of the kicker...
get off the player when the ref calls play the ball...
be behind the line when the opposition is within 1/10 mtrs from your tryline..
don't be infront of the kicker when taking a line dropout..

etc etc...then they want to change the original game itself to make it more exciting...

when changing the way a game was played to the way it is now..then expect coaches,players etc to bend the rules to favour their game and style..expect many penalties and boring scorelines....its called manipulating the system....

I'm only making a small post here but my main jist is.....

MAKE SOME FINER CHANGES TO THE GAME...BUT DONT CHANGE THE GAME COMPLETELY.....AND DONT CALL IT RUGBY LEAGUE...
because when I and many others played the game of rugby league it wasn't like it is now......
You may see me struggle...but you will never see me quit... :D

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Post by formerguest » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 4:08 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:59 pm
formerguest wrote:
Sat 31 Mar, 2018 3:55 pm
Didn't Cammy get marched ten metres for dissent and immediately mouthed at the ref again?
Hard to tell exactly. I'm not fan of binning for dissent, just keep marching them. Too heavy-handed.

But if they want to do that, fine, bin all dissenters every time. If it's consistency people want, then actually the penalty counts need to increase, they need to be up towards 60 per match to catch the other 50% of infringements. And they need to sit players down at least twice as often.
I have taken on board a few of the points that you have made here, though I don't agree with a lot of it. When it comes to dissent, well we are poles apart, as I think respect for officials should always be the foundation on which anyone that plays a sport bases their approach.

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Post by hobbo » Sat 31 Mar, 2018 4:21 pm

Last night we saw two grub teams who absolutely loath each other who both push the boundaries beyond the norm hence high the penalty count ..

Let's see what eventuates in the Roosters / Warriors clash
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