To those who are blaming Cleary

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MacDougall
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To those who are blaming Cleary

Post by MacDougall » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:27 pm

This is in particular directed at those questioning his signings and selections. I feel like I need to go into bat for the guy.

The Tigers after last season needed a roster refresh. I think that was plain to see and I think that was his mandate from the club when he was signed. I think we pretty much all wanted it. This was made even more clear after Tedesco, Woods and Moses decided to abandon ship. Unfortunately we are not going to be able to go out and turn over the entire squad in one season and become contenders. Only the Roosters can do that because for whatever reason they just sign whoever they want whenever they want. It seems though even with the Roosters they have tactical down years that they use to reload the side for the next run at it. Even still they just have the benefit of a system that allows them for whatever reason to just pick the eyes out of the entire comp.

So given we needed a roster refresh Cleary went out and signed a lot of players. But you can't get superstars in every position. Many of them he will only expect to do a job for a year or two, transitional players, and if they contribute well enough to stick then even better. Guys like Thompson, Marshall, Twal and Fonua fall into this category which will expedite the rebuild but then you get guys like Godinet, Rochow and Lolohea who look like they won't, and guys like Milne who washed out already. Godinet and Lolohea will go before too long if they can't stack up. He would not have been expecting any of these types of players to stick, just hoping they would but expecting them to do a better job than a harsh critic would have predicted they would. You can't even count McQueen against him because he didn't sign McQueen.

Then there is the fact that there are players he would have had to keep around just to sustain the squad. Guys like Sue, Naiqama, Chee Kam, Grant etc. You can't sack the entire squad without causing a disaster with the cap but you can see by the fact that he has not given them starts that he doesn't plan to keep any of them around past their contract expiration. They have contracts to pay out and there aren't enough players on the market to stock a full squad, let alone a competitive one, let alone that would have been willing to come to a side like ours.

We need the men and Cleary signed players who he perceived would play above their skill level and hold the fort while he continues to build the side. They have largely done this as we were predicted on paper to be spooners and we are already in a position where that is pretty much impossible.

Lastly, Cleary arguably had not a single player who was a top level NRL starter when he came in aside from Tedesco who he lost before he had a chance to contribute to that decision. Any player who looks to have now solidified a spot is a net positive. Marsters, Brooks and Lawrence in particular who are all playing at NRL starter or better standard this year so far.

There are some guys that he signed that he, and any rational person, would be expecting more from at this point in the season. Namely Josh Reynolds (who has been unable to put any game time together), Russell Packer and Ben Matulino who were our three real big name signings. These three have been relatively disappointing in the scheme of things. Reynolds in particular is a concern given his body seems to be breaking down. Packer and Matulino have improvement to come in my opinion but it's just an opinion. There's no doubt it's disappointing but I don't think you can criticise Cleary for those three signings given their status in the game and the situation we were in. Packer has never been a big numbers prop, he's a general and an impact man. Both the big guys are in their first year here and have had some real solid games. At worst they are doing a better job than our engine room were last year.

This is year one of the rebuild. I think the progress is fantastic. Today was awful, truly, but I am sure at the start of the year
most people would have had us chalked up for more floggings than we've had and far fewer wins.

I wouldn't give it an A but I definitely give his work a B+ and find it really peculiar that there are people already sticking the knives in. Cleary has been a breath of fresh air in every way and has the side competing well above their level. We've also managed to go out and source a quality player in Moses Mbye mid season with the Dogs apparently paying some of his salary for the next couple of years. No doubt there will be more signings to come, and more development from guys like Marsters, Fonua, Twal et al. There is still much to look forward to and Cleary has really set this in motion in a good way.

So lay off the coach and lower your expectations for your own health. We are 14 rounds into the biggest rebuild we've had since Sheens got here in 2003.


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Post by Geo. » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm

Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
Wests Tigers don't need a Coach.. The playing group has taken over..
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Post by tigerbill » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm

When all the commentators and analysts are saying that ET cant be our 9 and he persists, sorry mate its not just us keyboard warriors questioning his selections.
As for rebuild, we've been served that excuse for years...I cant think of one of Cleary's buys where I have thought that he absolutely nailed it. He selected players who were good but clearly past their prime and put them on big money.

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Post by FreddyK » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:31 pm

Hi Mac - Excellent and I'm with you

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Post by MacDougall » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm

Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.


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Post by jadtiger » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:34 pm

MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:27 pm
This is in particular directed at those questioning his signings and selections. I feel like I need to go into bat for the guy.

The Tigers after last season needed a roster refresh. I think that was plain to see and I think that was his mandate from the club when he was signed. I think we pretty much all wanted it. This was made even more clear after Tedesco, Woods and Moses decided to abandon ship. Unfortunately we are not going to be able to go out and turn over the entire squad in one season and become contenders. Only the Roosters can do that because for whatever reason they just sign whoever they want whenever they want. It seems though even with the Roosters they have tactical down years that they use to reload the side for the next run at it. Even still they just have the benefit of a system that allows them for whatever reason to just pick the eyes out of the entire comp.

So given we needed a roster refresh Cleary went out and signed a lot of players. But you can't get superstars in every position. Many of them he will only expect to do a job for a year or two, transitional players, and if they contribute well enough to stick then even better. Guys like Thompson, Marshall, Twal and Fonua fall into this category which will expedite the rebuild but then you get guys like Godinet, Rochow and Lolohea who look like they won't, and guys like Milne who washed out already. Godinet and Lolohea will go before too long if they can't stack up. He would not have been expecting any of these types of players to stick, just hoping they would but expecting them to do a better job than a harsh critic would have predicted they would. You can't even count McQueen against him because he didn't sign McQueen.

Then there is the fact that there are players he would have had to keep around just to sustain the squad. Guys like Sue, Naiqama, Chee Kam, Grant etc. You can't sack the entire squad without causing a disaster with the cap but you can see by the fact that he has not given them starts that he doesn't plan to keep any of them around past their contract expiration. They have contracts to pay out and there aren't enough players on the market to stock a full squad, let alone a competitive one, let alone that would have been willing to come to a side like ours.

We need the men and Cleary signed players who he perceived would play above their skill level and hold the fort while he continues to build the side. They have largely done this as we were predicted on paper to be spooners and we are already in a position where that is pretty much impossible.

Lastly, Cleary arguably had not a single player who was a top level NRL starter when he came in aside from Tedesco who he lost before he had a chance to contribute to that decision. Any player who looks to have now solidified a spot is a net positive. Marsters, Brooks and Lawrence in particular who are all playing at NRL starter or better standard this year so far.

There are some guys that he signed that he, and any rational person, would be expecting more from at this point in the season. Namely Josh Reynolds (who has been unable to put any game time together), Russell Packer and Ben Matulino who were our three real big name signings. These three have been relatively disappointing in the scheme of things. Reynolds in particular is a concern given his body seems to be breaking down. Packer and Matulino have improvement to come in my opinion but it's just an opinion. There's no doubt it's disappointing but I don't think you can criticise Cleary for those three signings given their status in the game and the situation we were in. Packer has never been a big numbers prop, he's a general and an impact man. Both the big guys are in their first year here and have had some real solid games. At worst they are doing a better job than our engine room were last year.

This is year one of the rebuild. I think the progress is fantastic. Today was awful, truly, but I am sure at the start of the year
most people would have had us chalked up for more floggings than we've had and far fewer wins.

I wouldn't give it an A but I definitely give his work a B+ and find it really peculiar that there are people already sticking the knives in. Cleary has been a breath of fresh air in every way and has the side competing well above their level. We've also managed to go out and source a quality player in Moses Mbye mid season with the Dogs apparently paying some of his salary for the next couple of years. No doubt there will be more signings to come, and more development from guys like Marsters, Fonua, Twal et al. There is still much to look forward to and Cleary has really set this in motion in a good way.

So lay off the coach and lower your expectations for your own health. We are 14 rounds into the biggest rebuild we've had since Sheens got here in 2003.
Shhhh keep it to yourself but some people expected miracles to happen this year

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Post by hobbo » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm

MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm
Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !

He can’t even decide on one friggin captain !
He said last week he not sure what his top 17 are ....and we’re more than half way through the season ...hello !

He’s been clutching for the last 4 weeks now the cracks are opening up
Last edited by hobbo on Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Geo. » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:36 pm

MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm
Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.

Cleary recruited or re-signed more than 75% of the current starting 17..Yes I expected him to do better
Wests Tigers don't need a Coach.. The playing group has taken over..
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 25 Oct, 2018 12:17 am
OK I was wrong
happy tiger wrote:
Thu 22 Nov, 2018 12:13 am
I know at times I'm not always the brightest light in the kitchen

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Post by MacDougall » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:37 pm

tigerbill wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
When all the commentators and analysts are saying that ET cant be our 9 and he persists, sorry mate its not just us keyboard warriors questioning his selections.
As for rebuild, we've been served that excuse for years...I cant think of one of Cleary's buys where I have thought that he absolutely nailed it. He selected players who were good but clearly past their prime and put them on big money.
It's interesting that you've identified the 9 because I think Cleary shares your perspective given he went and signed two reggies dummy halves and has rotated five players through there all season. He knows it's a problem and is working on it. He, and the rest of us, were expecting Liddle to come on a lot more than he has.

He might have named Taylor at 9 today but he started McIlwrick there and only put Taylor on when Matt went down injured. Liddle had an eighty minute game today in reggies and got MOM so he's probably coming back next round (unless Farah comes in) if history is any indication. Taylor is not stoked on our hooker issue and is trying to remedy it.

It's not like he has had a lot of better options tbh. Godinet has been woeful, McIlwrick has no knees and is a week to week proposition as to whether he plays and isn't even very good, Reynolds can't stay on the field and Liddle keeps getting hurt. Who should he play there, Lolohea?

I think the signings have been largely underwhelming, I agree, but I don't think he had guys lining up to play for us and the guys that he did sign have done a better job than most thought they would.

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Post by the third » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:37 pm

Couldn’t agree more mate. He’s building a culture for our club. Something that should have been done from day 1

Good post

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Post by swag tiger » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:37 pm

On a positive we haven't got the wooden spoon as yet. At least we haven't got 3 wooden spoons in a row.
I have family in Balmain and the Western suburbs so i guess that makes me a Balmain Westie

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:38 pm

hobbo wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm
Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !
This is seems to be the new trend, revisionists attempting to claim he inherited the squad.

Fake news.

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Post by MacDougall » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:39 pm

hobbo wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm
Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !
He came in after last year started so he was behind the 8 ball in negotiations from the get go. He is making signings for a club that few players would have high on their list of clubs they'd like to play for. He had to compete with the rest of the NRL signing players too. Then he had to deal with 3 of our stars walking out on us.

But tell me more about how he should be doing better than having us running 10th.

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Post by MacDougall » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:45 pm

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:38 pm
hobbo wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm
Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !
This is seems to be the new trend, revisionists attempting to claim he inherited the squad.

Fake news.
Let's see.

Josh Aloiai - SR, LK - Was here before
Luke Brooks - HB - Was here before
Michael Chee Kam - SR, CE - Was here before
Matt Eisenhuth - LK, PR, SR - Was here before
JJ Felise - PR - Was here before
Mahe Fonua - WG, CE - Cleary
Tyson Gamble - FE, HB - Cleary
Heath Gibbs - SR, CE - Cleary I think
Pita Godinet - HK, HB - Cleary
Tim Grant - PR - Was here before
Chris Lawrence (c) - SR, CE - Was here before
Jacob Liddle - HK - Was here before
Tuimoala Lolohea - FB, FE (gk) - Cleary
Benji Marshall (c) - FE, HB (gk) - Cleary
Esan Marsters - CE, SR (gk) - Was here before
Ben Matulino - PR - Was here before
Moses Mbye - FB, HB - Cleary
Matt McIlwrick - HK - Was here before
Sam McIntyre - CE, WG - Cleary
Chris McQueen - SR, LK - Was here before
Thomas Mikaele - PR - Was here before
Kevin Naiqama - CE, WG - Was here before
David Nofoaluma - WG, - Was here before
Russell Packer (c) - PR - Cleary
Josh Reynolds (c) - FE, HK - Cleary
Robbie Rochow - SR, PR - Cleary
Bayley Sironen - LK, FE - Was here before
Dylan Smith - FB - Cleary
Sauaso Sue - PR, LK - Was here before
Elijah Taylor (c) - LK, SR - Was here before
Corey Thompson - FB, WG - Cleary
Alex Twal - PR - Cleary
Malakai Watene-Zelezniak - WG, CE - Cleary

He sure inherited a large chunk of the squad no?

That's not even the point. I am blown away that people want to put it on the coach who has wooden spoon favourites running 10th and competing when he is year one into a rebuild. Support the club! He's only just started!

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Post by Eddie » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:47 pm

GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:38 pm
hobbo wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm
Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !
This is seems to be the new trend, revisionists attempting to claim he inherited the squad.

Fake news.
I think it is fair to question some of the signings.

However lets remember the place was a complete train wreak on and off the field.

Its not like people were lining up and Ivan had great choices.

Thats not to say I was thrilled with the length and age of some of the signings.

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:48 pm

MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:45 pm
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:38 pm
hobbo wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm


We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !
This is seems to be the new trend, revisionists attempting to claim he inherited the squad.

Fake news.
Let's see.

Josh Aloiai - SR, LK - Was here before
Luke Brooks - HB - Was here before
Michael Chee Kam - SR, CE - Was here before
Matt Eisenhuth - LK, PR, SR - Was here before
JJ Felise - PR - Was here before
Mahe Fonua - WG, CE - Cleary
Tyson Gamble - FE, HB - Cleary
Heath Gibbs - SR, CE - Cleary I think
Pita Godinet - HK, HB - Cleary
Tim Grant - PR - Was here before
Chris Lawrence (c) - SR, CE - Was here before
Jacob Liddle - HK - Was here before
Tuimoala Lolohea - FB, FE (gk) - Cleary
Benji Marshall (c) - FE, HB (gk) - Cleary
Esan Marsters - CE, SR (gk) - Was here before
Ben Matulino - PR - Was here before
Moses Mbye - FB, HB - Cleary
Matt McIlwrick - HK - Was here before
Sam McIntyre - CE, WG - Cleary
Chris McQueen - SR, LK - Was here before
Thomas Mikaele - PR - Was here before
Kevin Naiqama - CE, WG - Was here before
David Nofoaluma - WG, - Was here before
Russell Packer (c) - PR - Cleary
Josh Reynolds (c) - FE, HK - Cleary
Robbie Rochow - SR, PR - Cleary
Bayley Sironen - LK, FE - Was here before
Dylan Smith - FB - Cleary
Sauaso Sue - PR, LK - Was here before
Elijah Taylor (c) - LK, SR - Was here before
Corey Thompson - FB, WG - Cleary
Alex Twal - PR - Cleary
Malakai Watene-Zelezniak - WG, CE - Cleary

He sure inherited a large chunk of the squad no?

That's not even the point. I am blown away that people want to put it on the coach who has wooden spoon favourites running 10th and competing when he is year one into a rebuild. Support the club! He's only just started!
Besides Lawrence, Sue and Aloiai, he either signed or re-signed every one of those players listed. Meaning after he came on board, he extended the contracts of players off contract

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Post by MacDougall » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:50 pm

Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:36 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm
Geo. wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:30 pm
Low expectations Wests Tigers fan motto circa 2006..

soon to be followed by the 'next year' posts as we re build onwards and upwards..
We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.

Cleary recruited or re-signed more than 75% of the current starting 17..Yes I expected him to do better
*Looks at ladder*

*Sees us above Newcastle*

*Laughs*

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:51 pm

Eddie wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:47 pm
GNR4LIFE wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:38 pm
hobbo wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm
MacDougall wrote:
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:32 pm


We have had good years between 2006 and now.

If you expected Cleary to do better than he has with what he was given then you had irrational expectations in my view.
Cleary hasn’t been given anything ...
He purchased the friggin squad !
This is seems to be the new trend, revisionists attempting to claim he inherited the squad.

Fake news.
I think it is fair to question some of the signings.

However lets remember the place was a complete train wreak on and off the field.

Its not like people were lining up and Ivan had great choices.

Thats not to say I was thrilled with the length and age of some of the signings.
The day he signed everyone was over the moon (rightly so) believing that the big 4 would automatically re-sign and we could finally attract marque players. Well, 3 of the big 4 still left, and the players he signed aren’t proving to be popular among the supporters.

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