Nathan Cleary

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Re: Nathan Cleary

Post by Tiger Steve » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:08 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:52 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:41 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:36 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:32 pm
I’m so over this s***. We have an awesome halfback - re-sign him to a long deal. Fix the roster and get some decent bloody players. Extend Ivan or piss him off. One or the other. Oh and Justin, don’t go on holidays until this is all done!
I dont get this mindset...I know all the talk and theories around it, players wont come, his heart wont be in it blah blah...i think thats rubbish myself, he will go eventually one way or the other just let him continue to do what hes building.
he doesnt deserve an extension (that hes unlikley to agree to anyway) yet and he doesnt deserve the arse
Mate I’ve had a few beers!!

BUT I think we need long term commitment to encourage good players and build our squad. If Ivan is going to Penrith in 2021, Go now. Find a coach who will not just talk about being on the bus but will actually do it. I’d prefer Ican to be that man, so extend him. If he won’t commit- bye bye!
Honestly don't think you've given this much thought.

Cleary has 2 full seasons to run on his contract, to end 2020. We are all aware. Is that not enough to entice new players over? Some might only be signed for 2 seasons anyway, and there's currently no guarantee that Ivan stays or goes in 2021. Does anyone really think Penrith will for sure sign Ivan now for 2021 if Tigers continue to fail to make any impact on the finals the next 2 years? They gave him the flick once and he hasn't got a team to the finals since - hardly a stellar track record, and they gave him the flick for a reason.

But above all this, how many coaches are actually contracted beyond 2020, i.e. how many of the other 15 head coaches have a deal with more surety than Ivan, for their players to mull on?

The answer is 3 coaches! Bellamy just extended to end 2021, Green to end 2021 and Robinson to end 2022, and those are all extensions from this season. So if you are a player wanting assurances of the coach beyond 2020, you currently have 3 choices.

How many coaches with even contracts as long as Ivans, to end of 2020? Just another 4 - Barrett (and he's leaving apparently), Garth Brennan, Brownie, Sticky. Hardly a list of success-guaranteed clubs.

All the other coaches unsigned beyond 2019 - Brad Arthur, Ciraldo, Bennett, Flanagan, Kearney, Mary, Dean Pay, Seibold.

In summary - Ivan has a contract length equal to or better than 12/15 = 80%.
Actually I’ve given this a lot of thought.

Since this latest challenge in the development of Wests Tigers presented itself I have been very restrained in my posts and thoughts. I’ve let it play out. I’ve reserved judgement.

So, after careful consideration I have formed the opinion that we need a long term coach to build our on-field success. We need someone with a vision to build our roster and brand thus attracting top line players. If you’ve read my posts over time you’ll know I value the importance of building a roster with top class players. For us to do this we need a long term coach - otherwise these players will not come.

I want Ivan to be that coach.

But if he wants to be with his son in 2021 or earlier - he is not what we need.

So, I may not agree with your thoughts and ideas but rest assured I have given it quite a lot of thought
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Post by innsaneink » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:08 pm

...But above all this, how many coaches are actually contracted beyond 2020, i.e. how many of the other 15 head coaches have a deal with more surety than Ivan, for their players to mull on?

The answer is 3 coaches! Bellamy just extended to end 2021, Green to end 2021 and Robinson to end 2022, and those are all extensions from this season. So if you are a player wanting assurances of the coach beyond 2020, you currently have 3 choices....
Thnx, thats where im comin from
They talked about this on NRL 360, more or less said the same thing, the club needs to go straight to Ivan and ask him to extend, if he declines, work out a settlement, because we will in affect have an interim coach.
Haha...the moment the club starts taking advice from Kent & co is the moment we die

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Post by Nucky Thompson » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:22 pm

I get what you're saying I think we could be less hesterical about it. 

The same scenario with us could happen at souths with sebold maybe going to Brisbane because has family in Queensland.

But I think most people want a coach who wants to be here and Maguire could be that man and has the passion to not jump ship.

If we can get Maguire I'd be happy to let ivan go. If it's not Maguire I'm happy to hold ivan to his contract.

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Post by jirskyr » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:27 pm

Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:08 pm
Actually I’ve given this a lot of thought.

Since this latest challenge in the development of Wests Tigers presented itself I have been very restrained in my posts and thoughts. I’ve let it play out. I’ve reserved judgement.

So, after careful consideration I have formed the opinion that we need a long term coach to build our on-field success. We need someone with a vision to build our roster and brand thus attracting top line players. If you’ve read my posts over time you’ll know I value the importance of building a roster with top class players. For us to do this we need a long term coach - otherwise these players will not come.

I want Ivan to be that coach.

But if he wants to be with his son in 2021 or earlier - he is not what we need.

So, I may not agree with your thoughts and ideas but rest assured I have given it quite a lot of thought
OK fair enough I may have stated my position a bit harshly.

I personally would not extend any coach beyond the current 2 years remaining without having first made the finals. Improvement is good, but Ivan should not be re-signed until we make the finals, and frankly we need to do it both of the remaining seasons that he has. I don't care if he has ambitions beyond 2020 - I am confident all head coaches have a similar sort of ambition, it just may not be in the public conscious.

E.g. Craig Bellamy has either had serious thoughts, several times now, about going to Broncos... or at least mentioning the Broncos to leverage more money out of Storm. He can do that because he's Craig Bellamy, but I reject the idea a coach has to want to be there long-term to be of any good, or will lack motivation if he has long-term plans. What we need is not a dreamer, we need a bloke to take us to the finals with some consistency, and if he leaves at some point, or we fire him, leaves the club in better shape than when he came.

I'd love a long-term coach to build on-field success, but the reality is that most coaches are not long-term. It's too cut-throat. Would love to sign a Bellamy, Robinson or Bennett, because they are really the only coaches who have terms of the type you are speaking. Everyone else is 2-3 years at a time, then they roll over if success is not forthcoming.

And recalling that the last long-term coach we had won 1 comp and made 3 finals in 10 seasons - widely considered insufficient, and if not for the premiership, arguably laughable. Good bloke, good coach, smart operator, strong history of coaching... and lacked overall success for Tigers.

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Post by Nucky Thompson » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:34 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:27 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:08 pm
Actually I’ve given this a lot of thought.

Since this latest challenge in the development of Wests Tigers presented itself I have been very restrained in my posts and thoughts. I’ve let it play out. I’ve reserved judgement.

So, after careful consideration I have formed the opinion that we need a long term coach to build our on-field success. We need someone with a vision to build our roster and brand thus attracting top line players. If you’ve read my posts over time you’ll know I value the importance of building a roster with top class players. For us to do this we need a long term coach - otherwise these players will not come.

I want Ivan to be that coach.

But if he wants to be with his son in 2021 or earlier - he is not what we need.

So, I may not agree with your thoughts and ideas but rest assured I have given it quite a lot of thought
OK fair enough I may have stated my position a bit harshly.

I personally would not extend any coach beyond the current 2 years remaining without having first made the finals. Improvement is good, but Ivan should not be re-signed until we make the finals, and frankly we need to do it both of the remaining seasons that he has. I don't care if he has ambitions beyond 2020 - I am confident all head coaches have a similar sort of ambition, it just may not be in the public conscious.

E.g. Craig Bellamy has either had serious thoughts, several times now, about going to Broncos... or at least mentioning the Broncos to leverage more money out of Storm. He can do that because he's Craig Bellamy, but I reject the idea a coach has to want to be there long-term to be of any good, or will lack motivation if he has long-term plans. What we need is not a dreamer, we need a bloke to take us to the finals with some consistency, and if he leaves at some point, or we fire him, leaves the club in better shape than when he came.

I'd love a long-term coach to build on-field success, but the reality is that most coaches are not long-term. It's too cut-throat. Would love to sign a Bellamy, Robinson or Bennett, because they are really the only coaches who have terms of the type you are speaking. Everyone else is 2-3 years at a time, then they roll over if success is not forthcoming.

And recalling that the last long-term coach we had won 1 comp and made 3 finals in 10 seasons - widely considered insufficient, and if not for the premiership, arguably laughable. Good bloke, good coach, smart operator, strong history of coaching... and lacked overall success for Tigers.
Totally agree with extending ivan contract

With sheens There's so many varibles

Clubs in a much strong position financially now and sheens may do a lot better now. For example there a lot more people to help with cap, recruitment and admin and he could focus on coaching.

What do you think about Mcguire. ?


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Post by The Queen » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:36 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:27 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:08 pm
Actually I’ve given this a lot of thought.

Since this latest challenge in the development of Wests Tigers presented itself I have been very restrained in my posts and thoughts. I’ve let it play out. I’ve reserved judgement.

So, after careful consideration I have formed the opinion that we need a long term coach to build our on-field success. We need someone with a vision to build our roster and brand thus attracting top line players. If you’ve read my posts over time you’ll know I value the importance of building a roster with top class players. For us to do this we need a long term coach - otherwise these players will not come.

I want Ivan to be that coach.

But if he wants to be with his son in 2021 or earlier - he is not what we need.

So, I may not agree with your thoughts and ideas but rest assured I have given it quite a lot of thought
OK fair enough I may have stated my position a bit harshly.

I personally would not extend any coach beyond the current 2 years remaining without having first made the finals. Improvement is good, but Ivan should not be re-signed until we make the finals, and frankly we need to do it both of the remaining seasons that he has. I don't care if he has ambitions beyond 2020 - I am confident all head coaches have a similar sort of ambition, it just may not be in the public conscious.

E.g. Craig Bellamy has either had serious thoughts, several times now, about going to Broncos... or at least mentioning the Broncos to leverage more money out of Storm. He can do that because he's Craig Bellamy, but I reject the idea a coach has to want to be there long-term to be of any good, or will lack motivation if he has long-term plans. What we need is not a dreamer, we need a bloke to take us to the finals with some consistency, and if he leaves at some point, or we fire him, leaves the club in better shape than when he came.

I'd love a long-term coach to build on-field success, but the reality is that most coaches are not long-term. It's too cut-throat. Would love to sign a Bellamy, Robinson or Bennett, because they are really the only coaches who have terms of the type you are speaking. Everyone else is 2-3 years at a time, then they roll over if success is not forthcoming.

And recalling that the last long-term coach we had won 1 comp and made 3 finals in 10 seasons - widely considered insufficient, and if not for the premiership, arguably laughable. Good bloke, good coach, smart operator, strong history of coaching... and lacked overall success for Tigers.




With Sheen's I think it's alittle unfair when you think of the best NRL Clubs year after year they spent the most money on player's they drive Ferraris and here at the Tigers we drive a Datsun 180B until they bring in a better and fair system you can pick right now 6 of the 8 who will be in the semi's right now for 2019

And next year I don't think the Roosters will struggle when they get Angus and made Marty added to the list of 30

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Post by Tiger Steve » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:51 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:27 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:08 pm
Actually I’ve given this a lot of thought.

Since this latest challenge in the development of Wests Tigers presented itself I have been very restrained in my posts and thoughts. I’ve let it play out. I’ve reserved judgement.

So, after careful consideration I have formed the opinion that we need a long term coach to build our on-field success. We need someone with a vision to build our roster and brand thus attracting top line players. If you’ve read my posts over time you’ll know I value the importance of building a roster with top class players. For us to do this we need a long term coach - otherwise these players will not come.

I want Ivan to be that coach.

But if he wants to be with his son in 2021 or earlier - he is not what we need.

So, I may not agree with your thoughts and ideas but rest assured I have given it quite a lot of thought
OK fair enough I may have stated my position a bit harshly.

I personally would not extend any coach beyond the current 2 years remaining without having first made the finals. Improvement is good, but Ivan should not be re-signed until we make the finals, and frankly we need to do it both of the remaining seasons that he has. I don't care if he has ambitions beyond 2020 - I am confident all head coaches have a similar sort of ambition, it just may not be in the public conscious.

E.g. Craig Bellamy has either had serious thoughts, several times now, about going to Broncos... or at least mentioning the Broncos to leverage more money out of Storm. He can do that because he's Craig Bellamy, but I reject the idea a coach has to want to be there long-term to be of any good, or will lack motivation if he has long-term plans. What we need is not a dreamer, we need a bloke to take us to the finals with some consistency, and if he leaves at some point, or we fire him, leaves the club in better shape than when he came.

I'd love a long-term coach to build on-field success, but the reality is that most coaches are not long-term. It's too cut-throat. Would love to sign a Bellamy, Robinson or Bennett, because they are really the only coaches who have terms of the type you are speaking. Everyone else is 2-3 years at a time, then they roll over if success is not forthcoming.

And recalling that the last long-term coach we had won 1 comp and made 3 finals in 10 seasons - widely considered insufficient, and if not for the premiership, arguably laughable. Good bloke, good coach, smart operator, strong history of coaching... and lacked overall success for Tigers.
Yep - get what you’re saying.

Agree that we must make the 8 next year. Nothing else comes close to a pass.

Agree that the coaching world is tumultuous.

But we need stability to attract personnel. Cleary and Pascoe seemingly were like minded and I bought into the package - together they would rebuild our club. Now I’m not so sure.

I don’t want to discover we’re not attracting talent because our coaching staff is not settled. Or that current players are not putting in because the coach they believed in is heading west (literally!!).

Look at this weeks teams: Easts, Sharks and Storm have coaching stability. Souths are the anomaly.

Just my opinion, that’s all.
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Post by momo&medo » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:53 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:52 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:41 pm
innsaneink wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:36 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 8:32 pm
I’m so over this s***. We have an awesome halfback - re-sign him to a long deal. Fix the roster and get some decent bloody players. Extend Ivan or piss him off. One or the other. Oh and Justin, don’t go on holidays until this is all done!
I dont get this mindset...I know all the talk and theories around it, players wont come, his heart wont be in it blah blah...i think thats rubbish myself, he will go eventually one way or the other just let him continue to do what hes building.
he doesnt deserve an extension (that hes unlikley to agree to anyway) yet and he doesnt deserve the arse
Mate I’ve had a few beers!!

BUT I think we need long term commitment to encourage good players and build our squad. If Ivan is going to Penrith in 2021, Go now. Find a coach who will not just talk about being on the bus but will actually do it. I’d prefer Ican to be that man, so extend him. If he won’t commit- bye bye!
Honestly don't think you've given this much thought.

Cleary has 2 full seasons to run on his contract, to end 2020. We are all aware. Is that not enough to entice new players over? Some might only be signed for 2 seasons anyway, and there's currently no guarantee that Ivan stays or goes in 2021. Does anyone really think Penrith will for sure sign Ivan now for 2021 if Tigers continue to fail to make any impact on the finals the next 2 years? They gave him the flick once and he hasn't got a team to the finals since - hardly a stellar track record, and they gave him the flick for a reason.

But above all this, how many coaches are actually contracted beyond 2020, i.e. how many of the other 15 head coaches have a deal with more surety than Ivan, for their players to mull on?

The answer is 3 coaches! Bellamy just extended to end 2021, Green to end 2021 and Robinson to end 2022, and those are all extensions from this season. So if you are a player wanting assurances of the coach beyond 2020, you currently have 3 choices.

How many coaches with even contracts as long as Ivans, to end of 2020? Just another 4 - Barrett (and he's leaving apparently), Garth Brennan, Brownie, Sticky. Hardly a list of success-guaranteed clubs.

All the other coaches unsigned beyond 2019 - Brad Arthur, Ciraldo, Bennett, Flanagan, Kearney, Mary, Dean Pay, Seibold.

In summary - Ivan has a contract length equal to or better than 12/15 = 80%.
Exactly ..... as I said on another thread, there is no guarantee that we still want him when his contract is up. Three years with one coach is enough. You need new ideas and approach.
Proof is Sheens who overstayed his welcome and use by date.
So all this long term extension is just rubbish as far as I am concerned.

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Post by supercoach » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:10 pm

So we extend Ivan so he is at Concord for 5 years, than next year the bus blows a head gasket and we get the spoon...what happens than??? Ivan gets dumped and we pay out a few million in compo.

Like players, coaches are replaceable. Let’s se how we are going in 12 months time and than we can start having a chat with Ivan or who ever about 2021 season and beyond

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:13 pm

Yep, premature to extend before even making the finals.

2 years is a long time. Hypothetically speaking we could be pushing for a premiership in two years time. No guarantees Penrith will, what does Ivan want more, to coach his son or be a premiership winning coach?
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Post by GNR4LIFE » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:15 pm

If we miss the finals again next year, questions will be asked. You can only blame the roster so long when you are the one assembling it.

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Post by Donald Trump » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:16 pm

It’s like my brother who said he always thought he’d get divorced just never thought it would happen this quick.

Cleary is planning on leaving. We want someone who we know is going to stay and more importantly, wants to stay.

Get rid of Cleary now.

Mmmmm
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Post by WT2K » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:16 pm

supercoach wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:10 pm
So we extend Ivan so he is at Concord for 5 years, than next year the bus blows a head gasket and we get the spoon...what happens than??? Ivan gets dumped and we pay out a few million in compo.

Like players, coaches are replaceable. Let’s se how we are going in 12 months time and than we can start having a chat with Ivan or who ever about 2021 season and beyond
Agree. Bit early to be talking about extending IC.
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Post by Donald Trump » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:16 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:13 pm
Yep, premature to extend before even making the finals.

2 years is a long time. Hypothetically speaking we could be pushing for a premiership in two years time. No guarantees Penrith will, what does Ivan want more, to coach his son or be a premiership winning coach?
Coach his son Bogan
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Post by Cultured Bogan » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:18 pm

Donald Trump wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:16 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:13 pm
Yep, premature to extend before even making the finals.

2 years is a long time. Hypothetically speaking we could be pushing for a premiership in two years time. No guarantees Penrith will, what does Ivan want more, to coach his son or be a premiership winning coach?
Coach his son Bogan
I'm not so sure about that.
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Post by Needaname » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:27 pm

Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:18 pm
Donald Trump wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:16 pm
Cultured Bogan wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:13 pm
Yep, premature to extend before even making the finals.

2 years is a long time. Hypothetically speaking we could be pushing for a premiership in two years time. No guarantees Penrith will, what does Ivan want more, to coach his son or be a premiership winning coach?
Coach his son Bogan
I'm not so sure about that.
Ivan wants the best for his son.

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Post by tigerap » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:37 pm

TonyTiger wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 6:16 pm
avocadoontoast wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 1:21 pm
TigerTiger wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 1:16 pm
If Nathan signs with Gus and the Panthers after all they put his father through, then my opinion of the kid is so low he may as well be playing for the Roosters.
Unless Ivan ends up back at the Panthers..
Next marker will be how the panthers approach the next 2 years coaching role. If they appoint someone for more than 2 years then Ivan is out of the interim equation, however I’m assuming Nathan has agreed long term there with assurances that Ivan will be fast tracked over there, so interim coach most likely - seems Nathan is calling the shots. In any case who cares, this whole Nathan/Ivan has been a big distraction for us. Time to move on.
So over this IC/NC stuff... for 2 years we were strangled as a club as we worked through the big 4 saga, now it appears we are going through 2-3 years of Ivan Cleary will he or won’t he saga... sheezzz sick of all this BS that us fans have to wade through....

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Post by magpiecol » Tue 18 Sep, 2018 10:45 pm

Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:51 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:27 pm
Tiger Steve wrote:
Tue 18 Sep, 2018 9:08 pm
Actually I’ve given this a lot of thought.

Since this latest challenge in the development of Wests Tigers presented itself I have been very restrained in my posts and thoughts. I’ve let it play out. I’ve reserved judgement.

So, after careful consideration I have formed the opinion that we need a long term coach to build our on-field success. We need someone with a vision to build our roster and brand thus attracting top line players. If you’ve read my posts over time you’ll know I value the importance of building a roster with top class players. For us to do this we need a long term coach - otherwise these players will not come.

I want Ivan to be that coach.

But if he wants to be with his son in 2021 or earlier - he is not what we need.

So, I may not agree with your thoughts and ideas but rest assured I have given it quite a lot of thought
OK fair enough I may have stated my position a bit harshly.

I personally would not extend any coach beyond the current 2 years remaining without having first made the finals. Improvement is good, but Ivan should not be re-signed until we make the finals, and frankly we need to do it both of the remaining seasons that he has. I don't care if he has ambitions beyond 2020 - I am confident all head coaches have a similar sort of ambition, it just may not be in the public conscious.

E.g. Craig Bellamy has either had serious thoughts, several times now, about going to Broncos... or at least mentioning the Broncos to leverage more money out of Storm. He can do that because he's Craig Bellamy, but I reject the idea a coach has to want to be there long-term to be of any good, or will lack motivation if he has long-term plans. What we need is not a dreamer, we need a bloke to take us to the finals with some consistency, and if he leaves at some point, or we fire him, leaves the club in better shape than when he came.

I'd love a long-term coach to build on-field success, but the reality is that most coaches are not long-term. It's too cut-throat. Would love to sign a Bellamy, Robinson or Bennett, because they are really the only coaches who have terms of the type you are speaking. Everyone else is 2-3 years at a time, then they roll over if success is not forthcoming.

And recalling that the last long-term coach we had won 1 comp and made 3 finals in 10 seasons - widely considered insufficient, and if not for the premiership, arguably laughable. Good bloke, good coach, smart operator, strong history of coaching... and lacked overall success for Tigers.
Yep - get what you’re saying.

Agree that we must make the 8 next year. Nothing else comes close to a pass.

Agree that the coaching world is tumultuous.

But we need stability to attract personnel. Cleary and Pascoe seemingly were like minded and I bought into the package - together they would rebuild our club. Now I’m not so sure.

I don’t want to discover we’re not attracting talent because our coaching staff is not settled. Or that current players are not putting in because the coach they believed in is heading west (literally!!).

Look at this weeks teams: Easts, Sharks and Storm have coaching stability. Souths are the anomaly.

Just my opinion, that’s all.
They also have the best players.

Locked