Flogging a dead horse, but Right side defence again

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happy tiger
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Re: Flogging a dead horse, but Right side defence again

Post by happy tiger » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:16 pm

stevetiger wrote:
Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
Exactly. We could change our defensive structures but I think we would get caught out in other ways.

There is no easy solution. I personally think at this point the best solution is to stick with what we have and hopefully it starts working better.
But I thought we had a pretty good squad Steve

I get so mixed up reading your posts , the theme and ideas seem to change quicker than the wind does


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Post by Bones » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:20 pm

Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
The current backline is a good attacking unit.
If you brought MKC into centre and Sirro playing 2nd row on that edge then you minus the strength of Alioia and the speed of Kev. Plus you get Sirro's overall minimal workrate. So there are no easy solutions.
Is Aloiai's work rate any better than Sirro? I'd be surprised if there is a big difference.

In my opinion it would be well worth sacrificing attack for defense. I know Kev does some good things but i don't think he is creating that much to offset his defense.

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Post by happy tiger » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:24 pm

Bones wrote:
Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
The current backline is a good attacking unit.
If you brought MKC into centre and Sirro playing 2nd row on that edge then you minus the strength of Alioia and the speed of Kev. Plus you get Sirro's overall minimal workrate. So there are no easy solutions.
Is Aloiai's work rate any better than Sirro? I'd be surprised if there is a big difference.

In my opinion it would be well worth sacrificing attack for defense. I know Kev does some good things but i don't think he is creating that much to offset his defense.
Aloiai is a work in progress at the moment , his workrate isn't probably as good as Sirro's but to build his motor up we need to leave him in the NRL side

He has penetration carrying the ball , we especially need back rowers with impact and if he develops as we think he might it could save us a lot of money down the track buying 2 quality backrowers

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Post by Bones » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:31 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Bones wrote:
Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
The current backline is a good attacking unit.
If you brought MKC into centre and Sirro playing 2nd row on that edge then you minus the strength of Alioia and the speed of Kev. Plus you get Sirro's overall minimal workrate. So there are no easy solutions.
Is Aloiai's work rate any better than Sirro? I'd be surprised if there is a big difference.

In my opinion it would be well worth sacrificing attack for defense. I know Kev does some good things but i don't think he is creating that much to offset his defense.
Aloiai is a work in progress at the moment , his workrate isn't probably as good as Sirro's but to build his motor up we need to leave him in the NRL side

He has penetration carrying the ball , we especially need back rowers with impact and if he develops as we think he might it could save us a lot of money down the track buying 2 quality backrowers
I don't disagree entirely, i think he has potential. The fact he is being selected is more of a reflection on our lack of options than anything. As i said i think he should be coming off the bench at the moment and i worry that he isn't mobile enough for the edges, that could just be a fatigue thing though.

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Post by Nors05 » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:32 pm

We need a Beau Scott style back rower on the right edge. Someone who can go 80 mins and help Moses out where needed.

I used to think that we should move Naiqama to the left wing and bring in a new centre, but attacking wise Naiqama is pretty dangerous there. Maybe a seasoned back rower will help.


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Post by Love the WestsTigers » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:39 pm

Nors05 wrote:We need a Beau Scott style back rower on the right edge. Someone who can go 80 mins and help Moses out where needed.
Maybe a seasoned back rower will help.
You need a mad man there. a real aggressor who is over protective of his smaller men
Any number of them out there but Beau Scott and Greg Bird are the 2 better ones at this role.

Ellis did this for a while for us too, protecting the smaller more fragile guys

I personally believe that might be the best option to stop the points leakage on that side.. Might not be long term but a bandaid fix for now

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Post by Harvey » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:43 pm

Not sure you need a mad man. That is one option that will make the opposition think about running those lines, but the other option is a one on defender that can skide and cover ther poor defence of Brooks and Moses. I am not sure that Lawrence or Aloiai cover either of these options

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Post by Love the WestsTigers » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 8:49 pm

Harvey wrote:Not sure you need a mad man. That is one option that will make the opposition think about running those lines, but the other option is a one on defender that can skide and cover ther poor defence of Brooks and Moses. I am not sure that Lawrence or Aloiai cover either of these options
The reason why neither would be suited is they are very 1 dimensional 2nd rowers.
They do their job well but not so well to recover from others errors.
ET has a missile lock when he defending but he is too far in the middle to be asked to cover that edge.
We needs someone with that awareness to help out.

Totally Off-Topic but how quick is Frizzle for a 2nd rower.

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Post by Boonboon2 » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 9:02 pm

Bones wrote:
Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
The current backline is a good attacking unit.
If you brought MKC into centre and Sirro playing 2nd row on that edge then you minus the strength of Alioia and the speed of Kev. Plus you get Sirro's overall minimal workrate. So there are no easy solutions.
Is Aloiai's work rate any better than Sirro? I'd be surprised if there is a big difference.

In my opinion it would be well worth sacrificing attack for defense. I know Kev does some good things but i don't think he is creating that much to offset his defense.

Just to anwser your question
Aloia Mins / Tackle or Hitup =1.47
Sironen Mins/ Tackle or Hit up = 1.82

Aloia makes 6.8 hit ups per match in only 33 mins while Sironen makes 6.9 per match in 55 mins
Sironen does more work in defence with a tackle every 2.1 mins as opposed to 2.3 minutes for Aloia.

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Post by stevetiger » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 10:49 pm

happy tiger wrote:
stevetiger wrote:
Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
Exactly. We could change our defensive structures but I think we would get caught out in other ways.

There is no easy solution. I personally think at this point the best solution is to stick with what we have and hopefully it starts working better.
But I thought we had a pretty good squad Steve

I get so mixed up reading your posts , the theme and ideas seem to change quicker than the wind does
We do have a pretty good squad. I'd even state it's better than pretty good. That doesn't mean that you get a squad full of 100% perfect players.

I think that your opinion is that you need the best player in every position to give the coach a chance. I just think when you watch the game you are so desperate for the coaching staff to be the best in the universe and every mistake in the game is the player's fault that it clouds your judgement.

I find your opinion on our centres interesting. Simona to me is a gun. Naiqama is good as well. Naiqama makes some mistakes defensively but if you watch the game you can see it's not just him. It's our defensive structure in tandem with Moses and Nofo who are both poor defenders.

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Post by stevetiger » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 10:59 pm

Boonboon2 wrote:
Bones wrote:
Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
The current backline is a good attacking unit.
If you brought MKC into centre and Sirro playing 2nd row on that edge then you minus the strength of Alioia and the speed of Kev. Plus you get Sirro's overall minimal workrate. So there are no easy solutions.
Is Aloiai's work rate any better than Sirro? I'd be surprised if there is a big difference.

In my opinion it would be well worth sacrificing attack for defense. I know Kev does some good things but i don't think he is creating that much to offset his defense.

Just to anwser your question
Aloia Mins / Tackle or Hitup =1.47
Sironen Mins/ Tackle or Hit up = 1.82

Aloia makes 6.8 hit ups per match in only 33 mins while Sironen makes 6.9 per match in 55 mins
Sironen does more work in defence with a tackle every 2.1 mins as opposed to 2.3 minutes for Aloia.
It's not a big difference though. Aloiai makes some great hit-ups but he hasn't busted the line. Sironen defensively is a player who typically makes his tackles but he can come up with a poor defensive read.

I do think a really good defender on that edge would help but at the same time we play compressed and basically invite them to go around us. We then hope that we can scramble and have Nofo or Naiqama come up and in and somehow stop the play. Basically even if we had a good defender there with the defensive structure that we play points would still be scored down that edge.

If we fix that right hand side and don't play as compressed then we may open up more closer in or leave Moses more exposed.

I honestly think it just comes down to working on it to minimise the number of points scored against us but playing a positive all round game.

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Post by tiga4eva » Mon 11 Jul, 2016 11:13 pm

I've heard Woods and Halatau both say how hard Aloiai hits in defense. He has that over Siro I'd say.

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Post by coopy » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 12:41 am

Goose wrote:
I think that Moses seemed to be the main culprit
I reckon you have the answer there. It's a domino effect. Once one players goes up the rest must follow. The real question is why?

In my opinion, the biggest issues for Moses are not his decision making but his size and technique. I read somewhere else on the forum the he was the smallest player in the NRL (80kg). I think he comes out of the line to negate players running at him at speed which obviously makes them even more difficult to tackle for a small man.

When he does hit, he tends to go high which is an attempt to stop the ball being promoted but also makes vulnerable to being pushed off hence his high missed tackle numbers.

I am not sure what the answer is. Does anyone think perhaps getting him to defend in another position would work? Wing for example would at least put him up against smaller bodies (not in all cases)

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Post by stevetiger » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:01 am

coopy wrote:I am not sure what the answer is. Does anyone think perhaps getting him to defend in another position would work? Wing for example would at least put him up against smaller bodies (not in all cases)
I don't think we can change things around now. Can you imagine having to learn a new defensive structure right now.

It did work for Benji for a little bit and I remember Richards marking Gasnier and owning him for one game.

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Post by happy tiger » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:33 am

stevetiger wrote:
happy tiger wrote:
stevetiger wrote:
Tigerdon wrote:If you try to fix the problem by bringing in stronger defensive players then you create different problems elsewhere.
Exactly. We could change our defensive structures but I think we would get caught out in other ways.

There is no easy solution. I personally think at this point the best solution is to stick with what we have and hopefully it starts working better.
But I thought we had a pretty good squad Steve

I get so mixed up reading your posts , the theme and ideas seem to change quicker than the wind does
We do have a pretty good squad. I'd even state it's better than pretty good. That doesn't mean that you get a squad full of 100% perfect players.

I think that your opinion is that you need the best player in every position to give the coach a chance. I just think when you watch the game you are so desperate for the coaching staff to be the best in the universe and every mistake in the game is the player's fault that it clouds your judgement.

I find your opinion on our centres interesting. Simona to me is a gun. Naiqama is good as well. Naiqama makes some mistakes defensively but if you watch the game you can see it's not just him. It's our defensive structure in tandem with Moses and Nofo who are both poor defenders.
Worst centre combination in the NRL attack and defence wise , but because it suits your anti Taylor sentiment just say whatever and change it 3 days later when it doesn't suit then next argument

If our centre combination is that good why does every poster on this forum say we need new centres Steve ??

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Post by stevetiger » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 8:56 am

happy tiger wrote:
stevetiger wrote:
happy tiger wrote:
stevetiger wrote:
Exactly. We could change our defensive structures but I think we would get caught out in other ways.

There is no easy solution. I personally think at this point the best solution is to stick with what we have and hopefully it starts working better.
But I thought we had a pretty good squad Steve

I get so mixed up reading your posts , the theme and ideas seem to change quicker than the wind does
We do have a pretty good squad. I'd even state it's better than pretty good. That doesn't mean that you get a squad full of 100% perfect players.

I think that your opinion is that you need the best player in every position to give the coach a chance. I just think when you watch the game you are so desperate for the coaching staff to be the best in the universe and every mistake in the game is the player's fault that it clouds your judgement.

I find your opinion on our centres interesting. Simona to me is a gun. Naiqama is good as well. Naiqama makes some mistakes defensively but if you watch the game you can see it's not just him. It's our defensive structure in tandem with Moses and Nofo who are both poor defenders.
Worst centre combination in the NRL attack and defence wise , but because it suits your anti Taylor sentiment just say whatever and change it 3 days later when it doesn't suit then next argument

If our centre combination is that good why does every poster on this forum say we need new centres Steve ??
I have no anti-Taylor agenda. I have a winning games agenda and I'm realistic. I like our centre pairing and I don't see them as the issue in the team at all.

We need a good winger outside Simona but JAC to me fits the bill. We just don't have him next year. Personally I'd make a play for a quality winger and an impact forward or a good right edge backrower.

I view the centres as an area where we are good and definitely an area that doesn't require improvement for us to be a top 4 team.

I think it's pretty clear that you are the one with the agenda. You continually state how poor our squad is when it isn't. You continually state that boring non-attacking game plans will win us games when they don't. That is an agenda.

I can see that our right edge needs work but I'm also realistic to know that there isn't an easy solution. Simona is a weapon. Naiqama is great offensively but he is on the right hand edge which has some issues. Those issues aren't just his fault though.

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Post by happy tiger » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 9:31 am

No Steve I state defence wins big games

Qld proves that continually

All the top sides prove that continually year after year , look at the Roosters , the year they can't maintain their defensive intensity look where they are ??

Tell me one side that is continually attack minded , that treats defence as a second class citizen that is a regular Top 4 side ??

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Post by stevetiger » Tue 12 Jul, 2016 10:18 am

Happy - I'll explain it to you again and hopefully you can grasp this. You cannot win games without attacking. It's simply not possible. Having a good attack also means that you push the other team and they may not be able to attack you as well when they have the ball.

Yes defence is important. No one is stating that it isn't.

The problem that we've had for a large chunk of JT coaching us is that we haven't attacked and we have ended up making it too easy for the opposition to defend against us and then when they get the ball it's easy for them.

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