The calls. Good and bad

Warble
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Re: The calls. Good and bad

Post by Warble » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 7:44 pm

The calls were frustrating for a one-eyed fan. I don't feel it was consistent for both teams.
We did play poorly compared to earlier weeks but it was positive to see our tries come from well worked moves, instead of tries from penalties that swung momentum.
We're a fiercely competitive side compared to previous years. I still reckon $26 to win the premiership is a great price. Get on!


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Post by Blaze » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 8:12 pm

Was sitting at the ground aiming parra supporters, I gotta say, they are some of the whingingest mob I’ve ever been around.... every play the we’re b**** about us being off side... lol it’s like they only knew one rule and just kept repeating it all arvo... and the ground announcer.... dear lord.... I understand pumping up the crowd, but let me concentrate on the game for God’s sake....

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Post by TCL » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 8:18 pm

they were forward passes and the refs got it wrong in MIO.

But we should have better

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Post by razor7 » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 8:24 pm

Yep if I was a Parra supporter and had to listen to that ground announcer(screamer) every week I simply would not attend games. It was that bad.

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Post by Blaze » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 8:47 pm

Even playing music two to three tackles in after a break! Did my head in...


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sideline eye
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Post by sideline eye » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:43 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Mon 30 Apr, 2018 4:27 pm
sideline eye wrote:
Mon 30 Apr, 2018 3:14 pm
I think the issue of whether or not the ball was passed backwards out of the hands needs to be simplified by making the rule... if the ball travels forward, then it is a forward pass. Don't bring in the position of the the passer's hands at all. This game is based around the ball being thrown backwards and anything that contravenes that is a blight on the game; forward is forward. It is almost impossible to defend against forward passes.

As to whether the bunker can or cannot rule on forward passes, if a line on the field can be seen by the camera, surely all the video ref has to look at is whether the ball is travelling towards or away from that line. I just can't see the difficulty in it.
I wrote a big thing earlier, but in summary, a forward pass doesn't travel in a single plane. Imagine if I throw the ball perfectly straight up into the air - how does it travel in relation to an observable line on the field? Well, wrt a camera on half-way and I'm at either end (normal setup), it appears to move away from the lines behind me and towards the lines in front of me. In fact it may even cross a few lines if I throw it high enough.

What if I'm standing on the halfway line with the camera? It moves exactly up and down the halfway line.

Given that the ball went exactly up and neither forward nor backwards, by my definition, it is not a forward pass and yet it would meet your definition of a ball moving towards or away from a line.

It might seem a stupid example, but the point is that passes don't always travel exactly parallel to the ground, they have elevation, like a ball thrown up in the air does. e.g. The Hooth passing from his own chest to Corey Thompson's chest. Elevation influences the appearance of forward or backward motion in a pass.

As to "ball travelling forward = a forward pass", watch the youtube video. Anyone running imparts forward momentum on a football, and if you throw that football sideways whilst running, it retains that forward momentum. Many many passes on a footy field, especially those from line breaks, are actually moving forward in absolute respect to the ground, but not in respect to the bloke passing it.

Or try it for yourself - try throwing a tennis ball out of a moving car window and see how backwards the ball goes.
OK, I accept that, so how can we simplify the adjudication? If we can't go by the direction the ball travels over the ground, we need to look at something else. So, what if we say that the bunker can rule on forward passes in the same way that they rule on offside plays. That is, if the passer throws the ball to another player who is in front of the passer at the moment of release, then that is deemed a forward pass; indeed it means that the receiver is offside. All it takes is for the replay to be frozen at the point of release and the relative positions of the passer and receiver checked just as happens now with kicks.

I saw in the Australian Rugby video that a truly forward pass would be almost impossible to catch but I also noted that they used the example of two players some metres apart and running at near top speed. I don't disagree with that but if the players were closer together, for instance with a short offload, this no longer applies; the ball can easily be caught and it would show up in the replay whether the receiver was offside or not.

If this was done when the referee goes to the bunker for confirmation of the try, a penalty should be given when the receiver is in front of the passer, just the same as any other offside play. I'd be interested to know what others think of this, my never ending quest for truth, justice, the American way and the detection of forward passes and offside play.

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Post by Tiger Steve » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:49 pm

Blaze wrote:
Mon 30 Apr, 2018 8:12 pm
Was sitting at the ground aiming parra supporters, I gotta say, they are some of the whingingest mob I’ve ever been around.... every play the we’re b**** about us being off side... lol it’s like they only knew one rule and just kept repeating it all arvo... and the ground announcer.... dear lord.... I understand pumping up the crowd, but let me concentrate on the game for God’s sake....
What about all the music in between plays - drove me nuts. Thought I was at the big bash!
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Post by sideline eye » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:52 pm

Blaze wrote:
Mon 30 Apr, 2018 8:12 pm
Was sitting at the ground aiming parra supporters, I gotta say, they are some of the whingingest mob I’ve ever been around.... every play the we’re b**** about us being off side... lol it’s like they only knew one rule and just kept repeating it all arvo... and the ground announcer.... dear lord.... I understand pumping up the crowd, but let me concentrate on the game for God’s sake....
Yes, something absolutely needs to be done about ground announcers, especially at grounds such as ANZ where the sound system is so good that it was giving me a headache yesterday. They should only be allowed to speak during breaks in play.

On the subject of crowd penalties, there were a few yesterday and we all do it but surely the referees should be professional enough to ignore supporters, given that most only have a meagre understanding of the rules at best.

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Post by jirskyr » Tue 01 May, 2018 2:46 pm

sideline eye wrote:
Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:43 pm
OK, I accept that, so how can we simplify the adjudication? If we can't go by the direction the ball travels over the ground, we need to look at something else. So, what if we say that the bunker can rule on forward passes in the same way that they rule on offside plays. That is, if the passer throws the ball to another player who is in front of the passer at the moment of release, then that is deemed a forward pass; indeed it means that the receiver is offside. All it takes is for the replay to be frozen at the point of release and the relative positions of the passer and receiver checked just as happens now with kicks.

I saw in the Australian Rugby video that a truly forward pass would be almost impossible to catch but I also noted that they used the example of two players some metres apart and running at near top speed. I don't disagree with that but if the players were closer together, for instance with a short offload, this no longer applies; the ball can easily be caught and it would show up in the replay whether the receiver was offside or not.

If this was done when the referee goes to the bunker for confirmation of the try, a penalty should be given when the receiver is in front of the passer, just the same as any other offside play. I'd be interested to know what others think of this, my never ending quest for truth, justice, the American way and the detection of forward passes and offside play.
I understand where you are coming from, I just don't think it's feasible when you get to the nitty-gritty of it.

Offsides for kicks are one thing, because momentum of the kicker is irrelevant, as is the kick trajectory. But for passes, momentum of the passer is important, because as you noted, it is still possible to throw a pass backwards and have someone catch it in front of where you threw it.

So you are right, if the players were close together and not running at top-speed, it would be easier to use feet position as a marker of whether the pass went forward or not. But the question is how to make that call? How close do they have to be together and how slowly do they need to be running? Becomes pretty technical.

As I noted before, as far as I am aware, the most probable way of tracking forward passes is to have a GPS football with triangulation, so the ball itself can tell you where it moved from and take away the existing momentum. Ideally the football would constantly self-measure, be aware of the difference of being held / passed / dropped / kicked, and alert the ref when it went forwards.

But it hasn't happened yet. Maybe the physics of it is just too complicated or the measuring equipment too expensive / difficult to set up at every field?

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Post by tig_prmz » Tue 01 May, 2018 3:45 pm

i'd change it to:

the first point of contact of the ball after release needs to be behind the player's hands.

so whether the player drops it or passes it along the ground whatever it is- as long as the first contact (either with another player or the ground) is behind the player.
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Post by sideline eye » Tue 01 May, 2018 3:46 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Tue 01 May, 2018 2:46 pm
sideline eye wrote:
Mon 30 Apr, 2018 10:43 pm
OK, I accept that, so how can we simplify the adjudication? If we can't go by the direction the ball travels over the ground, we need to look at something else. So, what if we say that the bunker can rule on forward passes in the same way that they rule on offside plays. That is, if the passer throws the ball to another player who is in front of the passer at the moment of release, then that is deemed a forward pass; indeed it means that the receiver is offside. All it takes is for the replay to be frozen at the point of release and the relative positions of the passer and receiver checked just as happens now with kicks.

I saw in the Australian Rugby video that a truly forward pass would be almost impossible to catch but I also noted that they used the example of two players some metres apart and running at near top speed. I don't disagree with that but if the players were closer together, for instance with a short offload, this no longer applies; the ball can easily be caught and it would show up in the replay whether the receiver was offside or not.

If this was done when the referee goes to the bunker for confirmation of the try, a penalty should be given when the receiver is in front of the passer, just the same as any other offside play. I'd be interested to know what others think of this, my never ending quest for truth, justice, the American way and the detection of forward passes and offside play.
I understand where you are coming from, I just don't think it's feasible when you get to the nitty-gritty of it.

Offsides for kicks are one thing, because momentum of the kicker is irrelevant, as is the kick trajectory. But for passes, momentum of the passer is important, because as you noted, it is still possible to throw a pass backwards and have someone catch it in front of where you threw it.

So you are right, if the players were close together and not running at top-speed, it would be easier to use feet position as a marker of whether the pass went forward or not. But the question is how to make that call? How close do they have to be together and how slowly do they need to be running? Becomes pretty technical.

As I noted before, as far as I am aware, the most probable way of tracking forward passes is to have a GPS football with triangulation, so the ball itself can tell you where it moved from and take away the existing momentum. Ideally the football would constantly self-measure, be aware of the difference of being held / passed / dropped / kicked, and alert the ref when it went forwards.

But it hasn't happened yet. Maybe the physics of it is just too complicated or the measuring equipment too expensive / difficult to set up at every field?
Well, for instance in one of Parramatta's tries, there were two passes that seemed to be thrown to a player in front of the passer. If they were allowed, the bunker refs could have looked at it in freeze frame and if it was clear that the pass(es) were thrown to a player in front, they could have ruled no try. If it wasn't clear, they could do what they often do and say "not enough evidence". Of course, this would always be subject to the on field referee sending it to the bunker but I think they would do so fairly regularly if it was allowed.

Apart from the technicalities of adjudication, I just hate to see the game undermined by forward passes/ offside play when I do believe that it is possible to check at least a proportion of these plays.

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Post by TCL » Tue 01 May, 2018 4:54 pm

I was watching the game on the telly and right at the time we conceded soft try the crowed announcer started caring on like a pork chop,so i thought the tackle thad been completed and the ref had called held. It was rather confusing i thought the ref was going to call the play back.

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