Fonua Pole #257

[Kelce68]

Maybe he's replaceable maybe he's not but ask majority of WT fans this time last year who you thought our two long term props would be & 95% would've said Stef & Pole. If they both leave it'll show that two of our most promising young forwards don't see a future for themselves at this club which isn't a good thing when you're trying to rebuild from the bottom up.

Sure. It's a valid point.

But Stef's choice is his own. As is Fonua's.

For every young player we've got earmarked for a future with us, we've now got the Makasinis of the world doing the opposite and showing faith in the system and wanting to be part of it from inside the club and the Turuvas and Luais of the world doing the same externally.

I really want to keep Pole. My only point was the sky won't fall if he, too leaves.

Only winning matters and neither he, nor Stef, have moved the needle enough thus far to get us off last position for 3 years, so maybe they're not as spectacularly essential as some make out.

 

[tigermate]

Let’s be clear

If we hadn’t won 3 wooden spoons in a row and had a coach who he believed in - he would probably have signed already

Can’t blame a player for wanting out of a theee time wooden spoon team with still the worst coaching roster in the league

 

[Needaname]

Sorry if that came across as if I was saying you didn’t know.
It was as much as me just repeating and saying how much I hate it.
Just another way that makes a contract seem pointless.
We might as well shake hands and hope they honour their word. And if you get that from me it’s as good as a contract.

So true.
Someone mentioned that in 2016 the contract rules changed I’m curious what that was.

My memory of a significate change was in 2014 after they reviewed the James Maloney deal to the roosters. From memory he was signed 18months in advance but the Roosters were allowed to include him on their 2012 cap. Anyone recall this better?

 

[Buttface]

So true.
Someone mentioned that in 2016 the contract rules changed I’m curious what that was.

My memory of a significate change was in 2014 after they reviewed the James Maloney deal to the roosters. From memory he was signed 18months in advance but the Roosters were allowed to include him on their 2012 cap. Anyone recall this better?

Yeah vaguely remember something about that. We were in free fall from 2012, I was about to kill the tv with every loss that year. So outside noise was irrelevant at the time.

 

[jirskyr]

The situation with Poke is as follows.
He is contracted for 2025.
He has been offered a massive upgrade to extend.
He has told the club he still wants to test the market.
So for all His talk about how much he loves the club and he owes everything to the club blah blah blah, he is just like Stef. He has a huge opinion of himself and despite having achieved very little so far in his career he thinks he deserves elite player money.
He may stay and that’s fine. But I am getting a bit tired of players whose contribution is modest but they want star treatment.

It would appear that, increasingly, you are describing a majority of players.

 

[BAGNF05]

The million dollar question is how much will our current middles improve when we add wingers who actually do some grunt work.

 

[jirskyr]

Let’s be clear

If we hadn’t won 3 wooden spoons in a row and had a coach who he believed in - he would probably have signed already

Can’t blame a player for wanting out of a theee time wooden spoon team with still the worst coaching roster in the league

Can't blame him, no, but if everyone abandons teams that do not have success then it becomes less and less about the salary cap "not doing its job" and more and more about players forgoing money for personal success/branding. Not everyone can play for the premiers.

 

[The Chad]

Like @Kelce68 says- don't want to lose Pole, but if we do, it's not the doom of the club we are talking about here.

He's simply the furthest along of the 'promising middles'.

I actually thought he would have a cracking 2024, only to watch him drift in & out of form. He's good at gaining metres, but as we have seen, he's possibly the worst reader of defence of all our middles.

My concerns on Pole are mainly to do with attitude on the field. Same issue I think most had with Utoikamanu- there's no apparent 'need' to excel in the defensive aspect of the game. Seems to love running the ball, but there are 2 sides to this coin.

I do not see how the Klemmer contract is 'killing the club'. We have plenty of cap space, and the 'poor play' of Klemmer is extremely overstated. Added to that- he actually shows a desire to contribute in the defensive aspects of the game.

If the club cannot 'buy' success from outside, then we need 2-3 of the promising guys to develop into regular players. Johannssen looks promising. Sione Fainu obviously. Young Tofaeono looks good. Aho & Miller are rated. Seyfarth is constantly overlooked.

We need players that hold the middle together & capitalise on whatever our upgraded outside backs can offer. Think Canterbury if that is an easy comparison. The Dolphins are my go-to. Not a lot of star power in that squad- but they keep the team in every game.

If Pole is a long term solution- fantastic. If he's not, I don't think it's as bad as we might want to convince ourselves. I fear a long term contract, coupled with no additional development (particularly in defense) is FAR worse than losing him as an incomplete player.

 

[Kelce68]

The million dollar question is how much will our current middles improve when we add wingers who actually do some grunt work.

At least we know that is an area that we have unequivocally improved. In Skelton and Turuva, the punch out of the back is immediately better.

 

[Kelce68]

Like @Kelce68 says- don't want to lose Pole, but if we do, it's not the doom of the club we are talking about here.

He's simply the furthest along of the 'promising middles'.

I actually thought he would have a cracking 2024, only to watch him drift in & out of form. He's good at gaining metres, but as we have seen, he's possibly the worst reader of defence of all our middles.

My concerns on Pole are mainly to do with attitude on the field. Same issue I think most had with Utoikamanu- there's no apparent 'need' to excel in the defensive aspect of the game. Seems to love running the ball, but there are 2 sides to this coin.

I do not see how the Klemmer contract is 'killing the club'. We have plenty of cap space, and the 'poor play' of Klemmer is extremely overstated. Added to that- he actually shows a desire to contribute in the defensive aspects of the game.

If the club cannot 'buy' success from outside, then we need 2-3 of the promising guys to develop into regular players. Johannssen looks promising. Sione Fainu obviously. Young Tofaeono looks good. Aho & Miller are rated. Seyfarth is constantly overlooked.

We need players that hold the middle together & capitalise on whatever our upgraded outside backs can offer. Think Canterbury if that is an easy comparison. The Dolphins are my go-to. Not a lot of star power in that squad- but they keep the team in every game.

If Pole is a long term solution- fantastic. If he's not, I don't think it's as bad as we might want to convince ourselves. I fear a long term contract, coupled with no additional development (particularly in defense) is FAR worse than losing him as an incomplete player.

Great post mate.

 

[tigermate]

Can't blame him, no, but if everyone abandons teams that do not have success then it becomes less and less about the salary cap "not doing its job" and more and more about players forgoing money for personal success/branding. Not everyone can play for the premiers.

We’re in a rut that’s for sure.

Only hope is we start strong next year and use luai pulling power.

Otherwise 2025 will be a write off. We’ll lose galvin which will dominate the news as a club that juniors don’t want to be at, we’ll sack benji and get a new coach and it’ll take 2026 to rebuild again for 2027.

Pray that benji can coach.

 

[Tiger_Yoshi]

We’re in a rut that’s for sure.

Only hope is we start strong next year and use luai pulling power.

Otherwise 2025 will be a write off. We’ll lose galvin which will dominate the news as a club that juniors don’t want to be at, we’ll sack benji and get a new coach and it’ll take 2026 to rebuild again for 2027.

Pray that benji can coach.

pretty much the way it is...

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

For you.

 

[tig_prmz]

Can't blame him, no, but if everyone abandons teams that do not have success then it becomes less and less about the salary cap "not doing its job" and more and more about players forgoing money for personal success/branding. Not everyone can play for the premiers.

I don't think any player is expecting to play for the premiers. They do want a shot at it though.

Stefano spent 4 years here and Pole has spent about 3.

Losing takes its toll on players. I look at the players at training, pre-game, post game etc and they just look unhappy.

You need to be a certain type of character to stick it out with this team after playing 50 or so games. You need to be a leader and have a want to change. The guys leaving aren't leaders, they're followers. I don't know if we have any leaders.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Luai is a leader

 

[jirskyr]

I don't think any player is expecting to play for the premiers. They do want a shot at it though.

Stefano spent 4 years here and Pole has spent about 3.

Losing takes its toll on players. I look at the players at training, pre-game, post game etc and they just look unhappy.

You need to be a certain type of character to stick it out with this team after playing 50 or so games. You need to be a leader and have a want to change. The guys leaving aren't leaders, they're followers. I don't know if we have any leaders.

No I understand that entirely as a human being, but Pole for example is barely an established first grader, so if he wants out for an easier path to gameday success, it only ever makes it more difficult for struggling teams.

Stefano is somewhat the same. Yes he put in 4 years at Tigers but he was signed on the fringe of first grade and missed most of his second season. He signed a 3-year deal and extended it for 2 more, before executing a clause that allowed him to leave early. 2024 was far from his best season and he seemed quite willing to look for the exit. Tigers paid him a lot of money to be a pack leader and he generally failed to maintain that role in the back half of his contract. It is a fact he jettisoned early to join one of the top clubs. We came last 3 of the 4 seasons Stefano was part of the side and he's a key component of that failure, it's not simply on everyone else.

The big deal at the moment in the NRL is unlike the 2000s, we've only had 3 teams win the Grand Final in the past 8 seasons. Obviously Panthers 4 straight which is unheralded in my lifetime. If you extend it to 13 seasons (2012) you only have 6 clubs win, i.e. even over a decade ago it's still the Roosters and Storm winning the Grand Final.

If you go back 22 seasons (since 2002) 11 clubs have won the premiership, but 7 of those clubs only managed it once, Manly managed it twice and the rest are held by just 4 clubs: Roosters (4), Storm (5 - 2 of those cancelled) and Penrith (5).

Even simply contesting the Grand Final, where the biggest clubs can knock each other out of contention, there have only been 8 clubs contest the Grand Final the past 8 years.

Why has the dominance emerged? I think one very big reason is the consolidation of both playing and coaching talent, because, understandably, players will cop a few seasons at a losing club before wanting to join a "successful" one. By definition it's self-fulfilling if the best players all want to play in the best teams, it becomes very much like European football where the same top clubs win every year because they dominate the talent and continued success ensures income.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

As a human being you would have to understand that your happiness does not rely on theirs. Is that fair to say?

 

[Tom Shines]

Can't blame him, no, but if everyone abandons teams that do not have success then it becomes less and less about the salary cap "not doing its job" and more and more about players forgoing money for personal success/branding. Not everyone can play for the premiers.

We are talking about trying to keep young guys that have already been at the club a few years and are playing for a team that has won 14 of its last 80 games or so … any other team would probably seem more appealing to them …its not necessary about trying to get a job at Penrith …although if the likes of them or Roosters or Melbourne come calling than this must be hard for them to resist ..

It won’t be “everyone” … every year we still manage to attract some of the over the hill gang looking for one last pay day …yes ..I know we got JL ,but they have certainly paid through the nose for him, and he has already had considerable success in his career

IMO ..the record of the WT in particular is a worry trying to keep these young guys … that other teams are not facing to the same extent …the team is constantly ridiculed in the media and public …even the Gold Coast must seem more appealing to them…

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

If there was a team in Thailand then God help us all.

 

[tigermate]

No I understand that entirely as a human being, but Pole for example is barely an established first grader, so if he wants out for an easier path to gameday success, it only ever makes it more difficult for struggling teams.

Stefano is somewhat the same. Yes he put in 4 years at Tigers but he was signed on the fringe of first grade and missed most of his second season. He signed a 3-year deal and extended it for 2 more, before executing a clause that allowed him to leave early. 2024 was far from his best season and he seemed quite willing to look for the exit. Tigers paid him a lot of money to be a pack leader and he generally failed to maintain that role in the back half of his contract. It is a fact he jettisoned early to join one of the top clubs. We came last 3 of the 4 seasons Stefano was part of the side and he's a key component of that failure, it's not simply on everyone else.

The big deal at the moment in the NRL is unlike the 2000s, we've only had 3 teams win the Grand Final in the past 8 seasons. Obviously Panthers 4 straight which is unheralded in my lifetime. If you extend it to 13 seasons (2012) you only have 6 clubs win, i.e. even over a decade ago it's still the Roosters and Storm winning the Grand Final.

If you go back 22 seasons (since 2002) 11 clubs have won the premiership, but 7 of those clubs only managed it once, Manly managed it twice and the rest are held by just 4 clubs: Roosters (4), Storm (5 - 2 of those cancelled) and Penrith (5).

Even simply contesting the Grand Final, where the biggest clubs can knock each other out of contention, there have only been 8 clubs contest the Grand Final the past 8 years.

Why has the dominance emerged? I think one very big reason is the consolidation of both playing and coaching talent, because, understandably, players will cop a few seasons at a losing club before wanting to join a "successful" one. By definition it's self-fulfilling if the best players all want to play in the best teams, it becomes very much like European football where the same top clubs win every year because they dominate the talent and continued success ensures income.

its not up the players to choose to play for the bottom teams so that we dont create european football.

They dont care

They just want to win.

The salaray cap is meant to even it out

But if we offer Pole $600K per year and another team that he thinks will have more success offers him similar money he'll go.

Can't blame him.

Players want the feeling that comes from winning. They play to win. and chase the high they get.

UNLESS the money is soooo tempting to choose money over winning.

Hence "welcome to the tigers"