Evans' Tour victory beyond question, says Hamilton

[Citizen_Tiger]

Australians make judgements about this sport looking through their footy and cricket glasses. Very few have any real idea of the sport, they just apply their own sense of morality, assuming that the cycling landscape is like that of every other sport they follow. It's not. No other sport asks of it's participants what cycling does. Take the time to do a little reading about the history of Pro Cycling.

Ian Thorpe returned two irregular tests. FINA ordered Swimming Australia to re-open their investigations twice, or they would take the matter to the Court for Arbitration in Sport. Only for the French newspaper L'Equipe, we never would have heard about this. In any case, there was not one media outlet in Australia that followed this through. The Victorian Horse Racing Industry, according to their Police, is rotten to the core and currently under detailed investigation. Similarly Harness Racing and the Dogs in NSW are reckoned to be a hotbed of organised crime. It is a ridiculous irony that the same people screeching about Armstrong are probably being fleeced every week at the TAB

 

[happy_tiger]

Australians make judgements about this sport looking through their footy and cricket glasses. Very few have any real idea of the sport, they just apply their own sense of morality, assuming that the cycling landscape is like that of every other sport they follow. It's not. No other sport asks of it's participants what cycling does. Take the time to do a little reading about the history of Pro Cycling.

Ian Thorpe returned two irregular tests. FINA ordered Swimming Australia to re-open their investigations twice, or they would take the matter to the Court for Arbitration in Sport. Only for the French newspaper L'Equipe, we never would have heard about this. In any case, there was not one media outlet in Australia that followed this through. The Victorian Horse Racing Industry, according to their Police, is rotten to the core and currently under detailed investigation. Similarly Harness Racing and the Dogs in NSW are reckoned to be a hotbed of organised crime. It is a ridiculous irony that the same people screeching about Armstrong are probably being fleeced every week at the TAB

We probably have had our cover ups in NRL

Joey Johns for example ,chances are he possibly had a positive test go missing , especially seeing players complain about supplying samples after a game and as many as they do after games ,pre season etc

 

[Yossarian]

Ian Thorpe returned two irregular tests. FINA ordered Swimming Australia to re-open their investigations twice, or they would take the matter to the Court for Arbitration in Sport. Only for the French newspaper L'Equipe, we never would have heard about this. In any case, there was not one media outlet in Australia that followed this through.

As I understand it he had one test that showed abnormal levels of two naturally occurring substances. It was investigated by ASADA and WADA, neither of whom took any action due to a lack of evidence. It was actually ASADA who sat on their hands for a while prompting FINA to get involved rather than Swimming Australia.

 

[T-REXX]

its like Armstrong though..

there is still no 100% IRON CLAD PROOF He has taken the drugs.. its all based on testimony.. doesnt mean he hasnt done it

 

[Yossarian]

its like Armstrong though..

there is still no 100% IRON CLAD PROOF He has taken the drugs.. its all based on testimony.. doesnt mean he hasnt done it

It's not like it at all. In Armstrong's case there a string of witnesses lining up to testify he was taking banned drugs. There is nothing against Thorpe apart from one test that was investigated and dismissed.

You can't really compare the two cases at all.

 

[T-REXX]

Well you can.. its just the depth that varies

the one is Tour of Sussie, the tester to did it has come out publicly and said he had the results to SHOW POSSIBLE EPO use but was not enough to make it a POSITIVE TEST.. in the USADA report there is no mention of a POSITIVE Test or the proof of it. Its all based on Eye witnesses and testimony.

Thorope has had the same thing,, tested was sus but not enough to amount to a Positive test…

its the same thing...

 

[Yossarian]

Well you can.. its just the depth that varies

the one is Tour of Sussie, the tester to did it has come out publicly and said he had the results to SHOW POSSIBLE EPO use but was not enough to make it a POSITIVE TEST.. in the USADA report there is no mention of a POSITIVE Test or the proof of it. Its all based on Eye witnesses and testimony.

Thorope has had the same thing,, tested was sus but not enough to amount to a Positive test…

its the same thing...

A positive test is not necessary for a reasonable degree of proof. If 20 people see you shoot someone they don't need the gun test results to prove you fired it. People have given evidence under oath that Armstrong was taking performance enhansing drugs and there are many more ready to give further evidence. That degree of evidence is nowhere near as substantial in Thorpe's case.

With respect, I'd firmly suggest it is not the same thing at all.

 

[innsaneink]

Gotta laugh at people lauding these cheats, frauds, thieves and con men…and the attitudes going with it.
"I know" ...."you dont know"

Methinks some poor attempt at personal justification after realizing they too had been conned all these years following this sport

Its OK to be disappointed in your heroes :unamused:
Dont make excuses for them though

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

Ian Thorpe returned two irregular tests. FINA ordered Swimming Australia to re-open their investigations twice, or they would take the matter to the Court for Arbitration in Sport. Only for the French newspaper L'Equipe, we never would have heard about this. In any case, there was not one media outlet in Australia that followed this through.

As I understand it he had one test that showed abnormal levels of two naturally occurring substances. It was investigated by ASADA and WADA, neither of whom took any action due to a lack of evidence. It was actually ASADA who sat on their hands for a while prompting FINA to get involved rather than Swimming Australia.

Testosterone and leutinizing hormone, both naturally occurring, yet so is blood. You're right, it was in fact ASADA and not SA that were told to re-open the investigation by FINA. Not once, but twice mind you. The absence of media attention during that period was telling, as was the stampede to print editorials about Evans being 'clean'. Xenophobia and naivety at it's finest.

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

Nothing to say about horse racing, harness or greyhounds? Was expecting much more moral outrage, after all Lance doesn't affect your hip pockets in the same way, surely?

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

This thread isn't about horse racing or the TAB ripping off punters.

Defend rife doping all you like, but at the end of the day it is still cheating. As someone who has followed cycling for all those years, you'd think you would be the first to lambast those who have made a mockery of the sport.

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

As I've said a couple of times, the culprits aren't the riders and I've been vocal in my criticism of the UCI, Race Organisers and Team Management. There's few in here with the patience to develop a little understanding of the sport, yet they're enthusiastic in promoting their moral outrage. May as well be discussing angular momentum

Local sports that are corrupt or local sportsmen that have avoided conjecture because of their iconic status have everything to do with it, it just highlights the hypocrisy

 

[T-REXX]

Yoss, your still missing the point..

im not talking about what the evidence has shown.. im talking about the tests.. all im saying is both athletes have come back with abnormal tests both showing signs of doping.. Thats all..

Ink, your right .. i am dissappointed. Actually im gutted that this has come to light.. But facts remain his is being made a scape goat. The USE of EPO in the pro peleton was so used among all riders, it was joked about. The other cheats who have come forward are getting very little slack.. The other CHEATS who come forward to testify against Armstrong got 6 mths DELAYED bannings. And in some cases they got let off. Other riders who have DOPED and come forward all are getting little to know press.. the USADA process was a witch hunt and nothing else. If they were serious about coming out with the truth, ALL the people who testified should have also been given a LIFETIME BAN.. No ifs or butts. If they want to rid the sport of DRUGS, they should BAN EVERY RIDER FOR LIFE That has been involved.. But no, they come forward and get given 6 mths (when half of them are retiring this year) and Armstrong is given Life…USADA always said it was about the TRUTH.... well they may have uncovered it, but they have failed to come out with the overall seriousness of it. The ARMSTRONG case is the TIP of the iceberg.. But they have now given it a CASE CLOSED

Well you can.. its just the depth that varies

the one is Tour of Sussie, the tester to did it has come out publicly and said he had the results to SHOW POSSIBLE EPO use but was not enough to make it a POSITIVE TEST.. in the USADA report there is no mention of a POSITIVE Test or the proof of it. Its all based on Eye witnesses and testimony.

Thorope has had the same thing,, tested was sus but not enough to amount to a Positive test…

its the same thing...

A positive test is not necessary for a reasonable degree of proof. If 20 people see you shoot someone they don't need the gun test results to prove you fired it. People have given evidence under oath that Armstrong was taking performance enhansing drugs and there are many more ready to give further evidence. That degree of evidence is nowhere near as substantial in Thorpe's case.

With respect, I'd firmly suggest it is not the same thing at all.

 

[innsaneink]

Like anything Rexx…..Joe the plumber pees on a wall....no one cares
NRL player Camroux L Johnson does it its front page news
High profile
CT drop your ahole attitude....youre impressing no one

 

[Citizen_Tiger]

Messy. What do you think about this…..
the Grand Tours to either be reduced in length (to say 15 days), and/or the stages reduced in length to around 150km on average. Obviously this would reduce the physical stress on the riders. Reduce the number of riders in each team to say 6 per race. This prevents one team from totally controlling the race as per US postal in the past and more recently, CSC and Sky. This would put more emphasis on the best riders coming to the for as opposed to the best teams. It would also mean that teams can either reduce the numbers of riders they contract, (making economic sense) or reduce the load on each rider by having more riders available to spread across the events.
I think the racing as a result would be more unpredictable which would be a good thing, and more dynamic because of the shorter stages. (I actually found this years' Tour to be among the more boring in recent times simply because of the complete dominance of one team). Your thoughts CT?

There's the potential to reduce the length of stages, but remember that French towns pay the Societe for the privilege of the TDF passing through. Similarly stages of the Tour are now televised world wide and six hours is worth more to the organisers and the UCI than four. Reducing the Tour to fifteen days would be so fundamental a change that it may well destroy the very nature of the event. So much of the Tour is about history, the heroics, the suffering, overcoming odds etc. The reduction in team numbers and an additional two or three rest days may well work. With fewer team members, the peloton may well ride a little more conservatively. I think the days of riding three big cols in a day should be consigned to history though and I'd like to see a total of fourr TT's, two team, two individual.

The magnitude of the calendar is the major issue though, as are the expectations of European sponsors in a tough economic environment. It's January to November, can't see the UCI sacrificing revenue, just to ease the suffering of the riders. In more than 100 years the riders have remained second class citizens. If it were not for Lemond shudder to think what the average salary would be.

 

[T-REXX]

they will never cut a Grand tour down in size.. the financial loss would be huge as would the appeal to spectators.

they have already reduced the length of Stages.. and total km in the tour..