Moltzen and Sheens question and rant

W

watersider

Well-known member
My question is: Accepting that Sheens is a very good judge of talent, why has Moltzen been let go when he still was under contract? Was this judgement made on early season form? Or does he have a better player in mind? Because I just don't get it. Moltzen isn't the best fullback in the game and even now, in good form, has been stacking up the errors. But, he simply suits our style of play perfectly. He is fast, creative and has an eye for the tryline. He is so good that he has become a legitimate playmaker option in a backline that contains Marhsall, Lui and Farah. So why are we letting him go?

And now for my rant:

I posted the topic 'Moltzen is the best option at fullback' somewhere around the tenth round and regularly disagreed with what felt like the majority who were demanding a change of coach and to 'blow up' the first grade side in favour of steve Georgalis and the under 20s squad. Do many of you who expressed these views realise now how over the top criticism of Sheens and Moltzen has been?

Moltzen was recovering from a serious injury and was low on fitness and confidence. It took half a season but he returned to good form when it mattered. This is typical of players recovering from serious injury. The constant criticism of him lacking heart and regular suggestions that he regain form in reserve grade have clearly been proven wrong.

Similarly, the hysteria about Sheens' tactics have also been proven wrong. While other teams started with great promise only to plummet once other sides figured them out, the Tigers have steadily improved despite a horrid injury run. On top of all this the tigers have won playing the most entertaining brand of footy in the competition.

Now, I'll shut up about being right. But, maybe next time we can all try to be a little more cautious and less hysterical in our assessment of players and tactics and recognise that this is a 26 round competition.
 
Apparantly he's on 220,000 a season, not sure if thats true, it can't be but he certainly hasn't shown enough to be on that sort of money.

Maybe the Dragons offered him some good coin since Boyd is leaving.

I imagine we made an offer for what he is worth and we were out bidded.

I would much prefer our dollars go on the young forwards and Lui rather than Moltzen, thats for sure.

I agree about Sheens, our style of play certainly is a plus not just on the field but off it to, very popular with the fans
 
watersider ur right he has been good the last 4-5 weeks but he allways has me with my heart in my mouth, i dont trust him at the back, and he has boomed some good try scoring chances, He nearly bombed the 1st try against the sharks, sorry but iam still happy to see him go. :deadhorse:
 
Nah, he won't be missed, sorry mate. In my personal opinion, I don't think you are right, however in the spirit of a forum, I relish your point of view.

Moltzen has been riding the coattails of the rest of the team getting their heads together. That is my opinion.

Although his confidence has returned, he does only seem to show up when a try is on for himself, and he is STILL NOT CATCHING BOMBS.

I'll put this to you:

Role back the clock and put Mitch Brown to fullback, and practice the same support game plays with him throughout the year that the Tigers would have with Moltzen and you would have a faster, stronger fullback who DOES pass the ball to support players, who does contest bombs, who does run the ball back at the oncoming defenders.

The amount of tries Moltzen has butchered this year is incredible, and he has an almost Willie Tonga-esque reluctance to passing the ball, however he doesn't have Willie Tongas' Strength to get through players to the try-line. Could you imagine the foul look Brett Morris would give Moltzen if on a kick return he jogs it up a couple of paces then spirals a 20m pass to him? (If Morris catches it that is.. :smiley🙂

Can't wait to see the bombs rained on him next year and for him to bomb tries for the Dragons. However without having Benji there to prop his cause up, he'll be playing for Shellharbour before he knows it, unless he starts to listen. I don't want to see him fail, however if he keeps the same game he has kept with us for the last three years, he will be found out.
 
My guess is that they've persisted with Moltzen for several years and decided he isn't the long-term player they want for the money he is on. He is an inferior halfback to Lui (and probably Miller) and he isn't setting the world on fire at fullback. He definitely isn't a centre.

I would also guess they've decided there are better options in the juniors or from some astute purchases. We have to remember that if some hot shot kid is coming through the ranks, like a Chris Lawrence, they need a path to FG within 2-3 years or they'll leave if stuck behind someone. Also if we take the Dugan rumour as an example, perhaps there are other movements behind the scenes to sign another FB.

Or maybe we simply needed to free up money in a hurry under salary cap and Moltzen was considered one of the more expendable.
 
@underdog said:
Nah, he won't be missed, sorry mate. In my personal opinion, I don't think you are right, however in the spirit of a forum, I relish your point of view.

Moltzen has been riding the coattails of the rest of the team getting their heads together. That is my opinion.

Although his confidence has returned, he does only seem to show up when a try is on for himself, and he is STILL NOT CATCHING BOMBS.

I'll put this to you:

Role back the clock and put Mitch Brown to fullback, and practice the same support game plays with him throughout the year that the Tigers would have with Moltzen and you would have a faster, stronger fullback who DOES pass the ball to support players, who does contest bombs, who does run the ball back at the oncoming defenders.

Spot on underdog!…Moltz finish off your WT career with a premiership, it will be your career highlight and good luck at the Dragons....you wont be missed

The amount of tries Moltzen has butchered this year is incredible, and he has an almost Willie Tonga-esque reluctance to passing the ball, however he doesn't have Willie Tongas' Strength to get through players to the try-line. Could you imagine the foul look Brett Morris would give Moltzen if on a kick return he jogs it up a couple of paces then spirals a 20m pass to him? (If Morris catches it that is.. :smiley🙂

Can't wait to see the bombs rained on him next year and for him to bomb tries for the Dragons. However without having Benji there to prop his cause up, he'll be playing for Shellharbour before he knows it, unless he starts to listen. I don't want to see him fail, however if he keeps the same game he has kept with us for the last three years, he will be found out.
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again just dont get the anti-moltzen stuff…..
he has taken a heap of bombs, even billy doesn't grab them all.

he has been pretty good the in recent weeks and blokes on here still look for the negative.

he'll be missed IMO, at this point we dont even have a fullback for next year.

You cant keep them all, so we have had to let him go, I know the Saints camp are very excited to get him.
 
haha nice 'pat yourself on the back' thread Watersiders….

The criticism of both was well and truly warranted IMO, just as the praise has been lately.

No one who was critical jumped the gun...a few went overboard as is their right. Moltz is playing ok at the moment as a footballer....not necessarily a fullback, and Sheens has started naming proper benches and has coached the side very well over the past few months.
 
@stryker said:
haha nice 'pat yourself on the back' thread Watersiders….

The criticism of both was well and truly warranted IMO...Sheens has started naming proper benches and has coached the side very well over the past few months.
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Sorry stryker, I know it looks bad but I couldn't resist the pat on the back. In my defense the response to my support for Sheens and Moltzen went on for pages. But, now that i've posted this message Sheens will probably name three wingers on the bench and Moltz will have a stinker.

As for the criticism being warranted…which criticisms of Sheens do you believe are warranted? The main argument against sheens was his team selections and yet his team hasn't changed. They haven't changed their style of play all season so what leads you to say that he is coaching them well now but was coaching them badly before? As far as I see, the only change has been the fact that gun players are available and match fit. Give me some analysis of how he is now coaching the side 'very well' as opposed to his early season poor coaching.

I also don't think its fair to criticise a player coming back from injury. On both counts I thought the criticism was completely off the mark and unwarranted.
 
To all the other replies, I'm glad you aren't worried about losing Moltzen. I agree with you all that he is no sure thing to do well at St.George, but my point was that he really suits the Tigers style of play.

I also think he is really developing into a genuinely talented fullback. He had previously been poor under the high ball and in defense, but he is covering most bombs and has made some excellent try saving tackles of late. His support play has also been very good this past month. Add that to his ability to play in the halves and you have one hell of a prospect. He also only has a couple seasons experience and has only this season been given a chance in the one position so one would expect that he is only going to get better.

Oh well, I'm glad no one seems too anxious to lose him. I see his support play and crisp play in the backline and really regret the fact that he is going. Hopefully, Sheens will be proven right once again on Moltzen.
 
From what I understand Chunk is on the money and Moltzen is on some very decent coin a fair bit over the $200k mark. Sheens would never be that naive to release Moltzen because he was lacking confidence after a serious knee injury. I think the reality is that Moltzen is on a good chunk of money and in having to release a few players Sheens thought this:

- Who is taking up a good chunk of our salary cap?
- Out of these players, who can we not afford to lose?
- Out of those are left who could we replace with the talent available from the rest of our roster and 20's?

Reality is that Brown would be on considerably less money and would provide just as much value if not more value then what Moltzen is at the moment. Don't get me wrong i'm a Moltzen fan and think in the last few weeks he is finally showing signs of what he CAN actually do on a footy field but lets look at the options. We have Brown at fullback who is on our roster for another 1-2 years coupled with probably the most promising/talented player coming out of Toyota Cup in Tedesco as well as Tuqiri and to a lesser extent Ryan who can fill in if injuries warrant.

So in reality Moltzen is and will be a good first grade player but for the money he is on, Sheens can't justify keeping him on the books. :sign:
 
I hope Moltzen is as solid as a rock during the upcoming finals games the team will need him to be. I read in another thread that Brown is signed for next year so unless Sheens has someone else in mind, Brown will cover fullback giving Tedesco time to further mature as a player and add some bulk, he is a great prospect.
 
There are two aspects of his coaching that I have never liked. First is his insistence to not replace a player with a 'like' player. For example on Saturday he replaced a prop with a fullback. To get Macca on the field he shifted Moltz from fullback to the centers which then shifted Aysh to second row which then shifted Ellis to prop so that Groat could come off. At that time he had BMM and Woods on the bench. This happened up until 2 months ago and at times it was ridiculous. A particularly bad one involved about half a dozen changes for one bloke. I think MacDougal has it on here as his sig. From memory I didnt get too vocal about it this year due to all the injuries he was copping but it has been a mainstay of his selections from year dot.

The other one is his selections of small benches. This makes no sense. Gall would come off and immediately we would lose forward momentum and field position as those replacing him were backrowers. Again he had a lot of forward injuries but the young blokes who were waiting in the wings have proven that they were worth the gamble. He got a few noses out of joint during the contract negotiations period when he stated that he wanted a big side as he was sick of us getting pummelled in the forwards. Not hard to see why when your bench contains 3 backrowers and a winger. I'm pretty sure we took the field in one game with 2 wingers on the bench.He has taken a chance with the young guns over the past couple of months and they are working out great. Gal comes off and is replaced by Woods….thats a good 'like' replacement.

As for Moltzen, 99% of people on here have always stated that they think he is a good player....just not a fullback. After 26 rounds only a brave man would say that they are wrong.
 
Moltzen has had some ok games in the last month.

He still lacks heart.

He still should have been in reserve grade two months ago when he was offering zilch.

And he still loves going himself.
 
I like Moltz, always have. He is dynamic and has good ball skills and speed. However he is a half or 5/8 and not a fullback. He is the most expendable player in our side. We have enough halves with Benji, Lui, Miller and Sironen coming through the ranks.

Reddy was signed short term to give Tedesco time to come through, and also that he can cover a number of positions in the back line. I was always worried that we would lose Moltz to the Bears, but in the end I am only slightly disapointed that he is leaving. If we needed to free up cap space, then I would have thought that he would have been a more obvious choice than Gibbs.

Underdog, do you really think Brown is faster than Moltzen? I don't know how quick either of them actually are, but would have though Moltz would have him covered pretty well.
 
moltzen looks decent in attack against average sides

he will still cost us at fullback in big games

on the weekend he could of stopped the mills try from a smith grubber but he didnt want to get in he contest for a ball on the ground. because we won this was over looked.

if we plays great in the finals then i will admit i was wrong, however i have severe doubts.
 
Watersider you mentioned that Tim has eyes for the try line He certainly does have eyes for the try line
Unfortunately he doesn't have eyes for his support players around him The Mitch Brown try if he looks inside he hits Robbie and if Robbie is run down and hits Benj 6-0
Instead he tries to go himself , realized he was going to get run down and throws a speculator that Mitch does remarkably well to catch about a metre in from the sideline
Still think Moltzen has positional issues the try against the Titans where he knocks on leading up to the kick there was only one way the Titans were going on that play If you look at the footage the Titans were on the open side all standing flat
A fullback with any eyes for the game realizes they are up flat and then they go back blind
Watch the footage ,Tim only starts chasing after he kicks it too bad so sad
He has improved under the high ball but he had no choice did he in the end If he kept letting balls bounce like he was previously Sheens would of got rid of him
Tim has improved greatly the last month (even I gave him a point last game ) But we can do a lot better in my opinion fullback wise
 
Mate, you might be going off a bit early about Moltzen. He has yet to perform in a big game. He will be tested to the max this final series and I am worried if he will be able to handle it….probably more than anyone else in the team.

As for a Sheens and why he has moved him on....i think you need to trust him on this one. You can't have it both ways.
 
I've said it before there is far to much man love on this forum for Mitch Brown, ill give it to him hes solid, but he has never done anything to catch my eye. Motlz offers so much more as a fullback
 
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