Poor bloke looked very concussed. Thoughts are with him. Great fella.
Might be best for him to call it a career after tonight. He’s taken a lot of head knocks and has no 2021 contract. It would be the best for him and his family in my view if he considered ending it. If that’s it for him I wish him all the best.
I like to create parameters or filters when it comes to change projects. Signings and resignings qualify as change projects. Here is a rough idea of a 5 pronged filter.
If a signing does not fall into this category I do not make it.
For instance a Brent Naden could qualify as a 4 or a 5. The qualifier for Brent is that we do not sign him on more than a 1 year low cost liability. We cannot afford to allow our desperation to attract talent to disrupt our mindset towards roster management. The outcome for doing so is to get Josh Reynolds or BJ Leilua on your rosters overpaid and on long contracts.
Using this filter system to analyse some of our recent signings you can see whether or not it was a good signing.
James Roberts - Is a 4. He’s on a 1 year deal and he isn’t paid that much, so the signing is astute regardless of the outcome.
Stefano Utoikamanu - Is a 2. Fine signing. Throw in Daine Laurie, Shawn Blore, Jake Simpkin, Tuki Simpkins, Jock Madden, Alex Seyfarth etc. into this category. We are actually excelling in this area mostly.
David Nofoaluma resigning - He is a 3. Bad signing. David is not a marquee transformative player. Re-signing him the way we did was a desperation move and a bad business decision.
BJ Leilua - Is a 3. Bad signing. He is actually a 4 and did not qualify because of his contract requirements. Should not have made this signing.
Tom Amone - Is a 5. Can’t really fault this signing. Low risk, potentially high reward.
Joe Ofahengaue - He is a 1. It’s not an amazing 1 but it is a 1 all the same. Low end 1 bordering on a 4. It’s acceptable.
Adam Douehi - He was signed as a marquee and fortunately he actually may be turning into one. I have been impressed. He’s a lower end marquee talent but it could have gone quite poorly because he didn’t really profile as one going in due to relative inexperience. I would have probably got this one wrong if I was in the war room as I would have advised we offer less money than we did.
Analysing our signings using this lens reveals that we have a pretty typical pattern. There seems to be largely an intelligence to our signings that occasionally veers into questionable desperation signings. This is the effect of long term failure and a pressure to win now. Signings like Nofoaluma, Leilua etc. are signings we really should not be making as we are in a rebuild. Nofoaluma and Leilua will not make the difference to a rebuilding side. The on field value of these two players is on par with the same output you can get hitting on a 2, 4, and even a 1. They were overvalued.
Let’s say we signed Reimis Smith instead of BJ Leilua. Would our on field performance be better? I would say yes. Not only would it be, but Reimis has higher upside than BJ and would have cost us less.
Let’s say we kept Corey Thompson instead of Nofoaluma. Would our on field performance be better? Probably not, but it’s close. But we would have paid a lot less and probably got similar output which would have allowed us to invest in other areas.
It appears the Tigers have gotten very astute at identifying young talent but lack when identifying the value of the players they already possess and lack at assessing the value of senior talent, or at the very least take too many risks in that regard.
We have been spoken of as in the market for, or potentially in the race for a couple of signings and I’ll assess them on these parameters.
Brent Naden - In our roster he should be viewed as a 4. This limits him to getting a 1 year offer (2 maybe with the team option), and low money. This should be our offer and we shouldn’t budge. If we don’t get him so be it. We can’t be taking more risks. Our success at identifying younger talent should give us the confidence that if we don’t get him that we should be able to nail a youngster that gives equal output on the field.
Adam Reynolds - He is a genuine 3. I question whether he actually is a quality 3 though primarily due to his age. I don’t really think it is healthy for the Wests Tigers to be making signings that we can’t perceive contributing to success 3-4+ years down the track. Can Adam Reynolds make us go from also rans to win right now? If so then sure. If he can take us to the finals at the very least I can see an argument for making the signing even knowing he won’t be here because gradual improvements will help the club with slow transformation. I would be inclined to throw our hat into the ring but I wouldn’t be hanging my hat on the signing either.
There are a LOT of other players off contract and here are some of the players that I personally would ensure we submit an offer for along with comment.
John Asiata (1) - 1-2 year deal.
Xavier Coates (3) - min 3 year deal. This kid is a genuine emerging superstar. I would make a real effort to get him.
Kotoni Staggs (3) - min 3 year deal. Similar to Coates but I think Coates is actually the better player long term and also I don’t think I’d be willing to offer Staggs the money that he would get elsewhere, but I’d still make an offer.
Caleb Aekins (5) - 1-2 year deal. He would be good roster depth at the right price. Definitely not a bidding war though.
Sebastian Kris (2) - 2-3 year deal. This kid looks like the real deal. I wouldn’t be inclined to go anywhere near marquee money, but we should offer him a deal that pays him around the same as we’re paying Laurie.
Dunamis Lui (1) - 1-2 year deal.
Harley Smith-Shields (2) - 2 year deal. I don’t think we’d match the market for him but I do think we should be diligent and ensuring that we are issuing contracts and sounding out as many of these types of players as we can. If we happen to nab one of these talents because their existing club can’t afford them and other clubs just haven’t got their eyes on him then that’s a major coup. Similarly to how we landed Ryan Matterson in the first place.
Nick Meaney (1) - 1-2 year deal.
William Kennedy (3) - Min 3 year deal. This is an interesting one for me. I know he plays the same position as Laurie, but Kennedy has shown star potential this year and this might be the last year anyone can get him for non marquee money. The Sharks have a lot of roster management to deal with this season and his dad played for Balmain. If we managed to get Kennedy here now I would welcome that and I would be okay with figuring out what to do with him and Laurie as a tandem later because they’d instantly be our best two attacking players anyway. Laurie to 6 and Douehi to centre, backrow or lock maybe.
Nene MacDonald (4) - 1 year deal. Nene is a great talent and the type of player we never seem to have (big, athetlic outside back). Obviously his injury history is terrible but if we can get him cheap as a project I think he’d be worth a year.
Billy Magoulias (5) - 1 year deal. Billy is a good footballer and I think he makes a good prospect for a 13 in this current meta. He’s also someone that I could easily see blooming a bit late. I’ve had my eye on him a while.
Siosifa Talakai - (5) - 2 year deal.
Patrick Herbert - (1) - 2 year deal. - I like the way he plays. He hits hard, runs hard, and never stops trying. We need more of his kind in our club.
Dale Finucane - (3) - 3 year deal. - Getting someone like Finucane is a perfect signing for us. Professional, high class forward from a great system. I would have a good crack at getting him in.
Bunty Afoa - (1) - 2-3 year deal. - Bunty is still quite young and has probably got his best years ahead of him. Pretty good recent track record of under the radar forwards leaving the Warriors and becoming more successful. We need more guys who run hard with fast leg speed. He’d help our middle a lot.
Peta Hiku - (1) - 2 year deal. I often wonder whether we’d have more success if we made more purely defensive signings. Hiku is one of the better defensive centres in the game. Plug him into one of our centre positions and yeah he might not break a game open but he can sure help us with defensive fragility which will keep us in more games for longer.
Adam Pompey - (2) - 2 year deal. I like the size and athetlicism of Pompey as competing for a centre or wing spot at the Tigers. He’d be an upgrade on most of what we have at those positions.
Lachlan Fitzgibbon - (1) - 3 year deal. Probably entering his prime. I would expect Newcastle will give him more money than he should get paid so we probably wouldn’t get him but I’d put a contract on the table. I like his personality as a fit with Madge. Would be our second best backrower immediately (maybe even first depending on how you feel about Looch).
Nathan Brown - (1) - 3 year deal. I’d love to bring him back. He’s the exact type of player we lack. He’d be one of my main targets if I was running the shop. I wouldn’t give him marquee dollars though. Set and forget 13 and Twal goes back to the prop rotation. Big win for us.
Ray Stone - (5) - 1 year deal. Another I’d like to bring back. A bit of a Nathan Brown backup plan. I love the way Ray plays also and he’d give similar to our roster at a budget.
Brent Naden - (4) - 1 year deal with a TO. I do think he’s a less risky version of the Roberts signing. Let Roberts go and bring him in if the price is right and we probably are better off.
Adam Reynolds - (3) - 3 year deal. Go for it, why not? He’s the best player on the market. I don’t really want to get into a bidding war for him though if the likes of North Queensland want to give him Morgan’s money or something. We’d need to get him on account of the Madge effect or if he doesn’t want to leave Sydney and no other Sydney teams are in the race. It would also require us to find someone to take Brooks off us and take quite a bit of his salary also.
Jaydn Su’a - (1) - 3 year deal. Su’a would be a great fit for us as a backrow option. Hits hard, runs hard. Would be an upgrade.
Fletcher Baker (2) - 3 year deal.
Egan Butcher (2) - 3 year deal.
Angus Crichton (3) - 3-4 year deal.
Issac Liu (1) - 2-3 year deal.
Billy Smith (2) - 2 year deal.
Daniel Tupou (1) - 2-3 year deal.
Sam Walker (3) - 5 year deal. Here is one I would sort of break my own rules for because he could genuinely change our fortunes for the next decade if we hit on him. We should be prepared to give him marquee money. I don’t care about the risks here. At 18 he stepped in and looked like an immortal 2 games straight. This kid is going to be insanely good and we can’t afford to let the Roosters lock him down for the next several years on a cheap contract or they will reset their legacy. At the very least we need to be in there setting his market value at a point where it forces the Roosters to consider letting go of some of the aforementioned names, of which I would take any/all if we could. If the Roosters can get Walker on under $400k the rest of the teams in the NRL are insane. I don’t care about the Politis effect, make the offer. I want to take on the Roosters big time this salary season because they have the best off contract talent and the trick to getting access to it is through Walker.
Thomas Mikaele (2) - 1 year extension. I think he’s still got improvement to come. He’s the only off contract player of ours I’d resign right now. Maybe Amone if he comes good.
I’m told Latrell will be a Tiger by the end of this week. Source is good.
The success of this is going to entirely depend on whether Maguire and Sheens have synergy together, which is going to come down to whether they like and respect one another. If they have or can build a mutual respect and friendship this will work out very well for us. Two premiership-winning coaches running this footy club can only mean good things.
Correlation is causation. Liddle goes out there and we score three tries in ten. We won the last game he started. He’s an absolute weapon.
For me he seems the logical choice to be captain of this side. He has the most passion, he puts in the most effort and if we need a big time play out of anyone in the side he is who I would be giving the ball to. For me he ticks every box.
I actually think we’ve been victimised by our own good nature a lot.
Never had a blip when it comes to PEDs, seem to get physically overmatched year in year out.
Never had a serious salary cap issue.
Victimised by Cleary, Farah, Marshall, Matterson, Woods, Moses, Tedesco, Issac Moses and now Aloiai.
Everything I see from our club has been that we just do what’s right. We did everything with JAC by the books and Melbourne even thanked us for it. Got nothing out of it except more embarrassed by the miss. Let Matterson go because he wasn’t “happy” and probably moreso so he wouldn’t poison the playing group, got nothing for it and seems to have just made other players want to do it.
Really ticks me off that we have this reputation all because we’ve just done the “right” thing.
Apologies Aloiai but I’m with Lee. Play for the Tigers and do your best or enjoy reggies.
This is awesome news. A great player. Professional clubman. Someone who works hard and bleeds for the club. Remember this is a bloke that Madge DROPPED and that came back afterwards and was our player of the year and Dally M Winger of the Year a season later. Re-signing him was necessary as it says a ton about our culture, our club and our coach.
Anyone complaining about this needs to pull their head out of the sand and actually be a supporter for once instead of a Chicken Little sky is falling dipstick all the time. This is one of the greatest Tigers of all time, our current best damn player and he re-signed in his prime on a reasonable contract. If you’re gonna complain about this then I feel bad for those around you honestly.
I’ll preface this by saying this ended up a lot longer and a lot more preachy than I intended when I started so please be kind…
Back when we were all clamouring for Tim Sheens to leave the Tigers I recall having a fleeting moment of clarity right here on this very forum. I remember saying something to the effect of “if we do let him go, we had better be willing to stick by/pick someone good to be his replacement or we may find ourselves in a coaching merry go-round”. The reason I had that fleeting thought is because I got the impression that Tim Sheens’s madness was very specifically designed to make a team that represented a club devoid of any competitive edge, to be as competitive as it could be, and letting go of that madness might cause a bigger issue than we realised. It was a fleeting thought, as I was swept up in the hysteria of missing the top 8 in 2012 much like the rest and joined the chorus of fans calling for his head.
Fast forward nearly ten years and I believe I was correct. Whether or not Tim Sheens intended for his methods to cover up cracks in the club they had that effect. Maybe he was mad for different reasons, washed-up or eccentric in his ways, but in 2005, 2010 and 2011 at least, his methods, gameplans, roster management and coaching style allowed for a side that was light on comparable talent, facilities and importantly identity, to compete with the better run clubs. Sheens essentially reset at the end of every season and attempted to hack the NRL. Sadly that was not sustainable. He was unable to sustain it year to year himself let alone in a way to created prolonged success. It was always inevitable that the Wests Tigers would need to go through real metamorphosis in order to become consistently competitive. Consistently competitive meaning that we’d make the finals 50% of the time at least. Statistically probable in a 16 team comp with 8 finalists.
Here we are now under Michael Maguire. A hard nosed, premiership winning coach who has worked with some of the all time greats and is rated a good coach by most. He’s a coach with a reputation for being a hard task master, and I think that he’s a good choice. I premise this entire musing by saying that ultimately it is my view that we need to stick with Maguire, granted that I see certain changes in his approach.
Back in 2016, the Wests Tigers had Jason Taylor at the helm of a rebuild. The second coach since we let go of Sheens. Taylor had been given the reigns of a cornucopia of young talent. A group of kids that most experts rated as undeniable. The Wests Tigers would be on the verge of a legacy with this lot. We’re talking Teddy, Moses, Brooks and co. Attack, as was the case back when we had Sheens at the helm, was not the problem. Much like with Potter, Clear and even now Madge, defense was our issue. Defense was also our issue the entire time Sheens was in charge, but Sheens didn’t seem to care. He preferred to just hack the game to get wins. Maybe because defense requires physicality, will and mentality that he knew this club itself just didn’t possess. It is a club that at it’s core has had massive culturally issues not just since it was established in 2000, but prior to that with both the foundation clubs beforehand being the biggest disappointments of the entire nineties.
At the same time another team was planning their own rebuild. The San Francisco 49ers. Not long before being a Superbowl team, had just gone from the penthouse to the outhouse. Off field issues, shock retirements, issues in the front office, white anting in the coaches room. The club was in ruins.
While the Wests Tigers had Jason Taylor as head coach, the 49ers made a decision to bring in a brilliant young coach by the name of Kyle Shanahan. Untested as a head coach, but the son of one of the all-time great coaches and someone that had been touted as a future head coach for his entire adult life. Comparatively, we had Jason Taylor, someone well tested and found wanting already; both as a head coach and as a man manager.
There is a similar thread running through every appointment in Wests Tigers history in fact. We usually take our head coaches off the scrap heap. Sheens himself came off the scrap heap. Cleary and Maguire off the scrap heap. The only one who didn’t was Mick Potter and he was the one given the hardest job, the least assistance and the shortest attempt to do so.
At the 49ers Shanahan was able to rebuild everything from the ground up, and he was given five years to do so. A huge vote of confidence from day 1. He was able to bring in front office guys that were his guys, so he knew that he could trust them. He was able to be in charge of every facet of everything and redefine what the 49ers were from the ground up. The 49ers were not an attractive destination for free agents, so he brought in high character guys that were older, to help show the young guys how to prepare. Success was not required. Effort was required. The 49ers got pummeled from pillar to post in year one, but nobody complained. There was optimism. But there wasn’t rhetoric. The players expressed their pain, but it was always in a positive way and they always spoke of knowing that the process would work. They understood Kyle’s vision for the franchise, and they all bought in.
In year three of the 49ers rebuild through Kyle Shanahan, the 49ers made the Superbowl largely using unheralded or overlooked guys like Raheem Mostert (an undrafted journeyman), Richard Sherman (an old player they signed off an injury), Jimmy Garroppolo (a QB that was untested that came up behind Tom Brady at New England) with a sprinkling of lightning in a bottle talent (George Kittle, a fifth round draft pick) and one or two genuine knockout superstar youngsters (Nick Bosa, Fred Warner, Deforest Buckner). But pound for pound their roster was not meant to make the Superbowl at the start of the year. They were meant to come last in their division. By the end of the season the NFL media considered their roster unfairly strong. I attribute literally all of it to the appointment of Kyle Shanahan. That one guy, and the trust the head office placed in him to see his plan through.
That is how important the head coach appointment is. Or at the very least the person in charge of football management at a club. Kyle Shanahan is more than a head coach. He has the last say on everything. He’s the GM, offensive coordinator, defensive quality control guy and head coach all rolled into one and everyone there are his people.
When I compare Maguire to Kyle, there are a lot of differences and not many similarities, but that might not matter all that much so long as his process proves right for this club.
So what has the Maguire regime done right and what has he done wrong?
Right:
Recruitment of young players. Our best players this season are all players that have been at the Tigers for 2 years or fewer. Daine Laurie, Luciano Leilua, Adam Douehi, Stefano Utoikamanu. This is very exciting and very good signs that the office has some very good talent identification and is able to sell itself to young stars well.
Sweeping the old out. Letting Farah and Marshall go was necessary. We need a blank canvas.
Brought in experienced heads to show the youngsters how to perform. I particularly applaud the signing of James Tamou in this regard. And I don’t really care how Tamou performs off the field because his reported salary is lower than Chris McQueen’s was. Tamou is a leader in the locker room, and in a rebuild you need guys like that (we actually need more of them, we didn’t sign enough of them).
Corporate performance appears to be going well. For now.
Wrong:
Brought in and/or retained the WRONG experienced heads. In a club that is rebuilding and searching for identity and shaping itself there is no place for BJ Leilua and James Roberts. Leilua and Roberts are not older heads you want younger guys looking towards as role models. It might not be a nice sentiment but it’s glaringly obvious. Leilua has been a problem everywhere he has gone and Roberts has more issues than a box of tissues. Both signings were desperate moves to get results now and bringing them in was a tremendous mistake and worries me deeply about how Maguire really feels about his job security to make such desperate decisions.
Onfield gameplanning. Our defensive structures are abysmal and our attacking plans archaic. But defense has been a problem at this club for longer than he’s been around, and as much as it seems abstract I believe it could be more of an issue with our cultural identity than necessarily the coach not knowing how to coach defense.
Re-signing Luke Brooks as our marquee playmaker. The message that re-signing Brooks sent was very negative. Even at the end of 2018, the writing was on the wall that Brooks was not going to take this side to the heights it needed to go. Rewarding him with a giant contract tells everyone that performance is optional at the Wests Tigers and it continues to send that message. In my opinion playmakers that are paid top money have ONE contract to show they can rule the roost or they should be gone. It’s imperative that it be handled this way or the culture collapses in a steaming heap (see Anthony Milford at the Broncos, Shaun Johnson at the New Zealand Warriors etc.)
Our identity. What is it? Who are our fans supporting? What are our values? Brand is something that nobody in the front office seems to have a clue about and culture is something that they don’t seem to understand either. We are the “Joint Venture” and it’s spoken of almost insultingly by people who describe us that way. 21 years on and really we are still Balmain and the Wests Magpies. Whenever something comes up related to the JV the old crap resurfaces. It’s ridiculous. Why can’t we be the Unity Club? Why can’t we lean into what we are. Yes we are the JV. We have 200% the history to draw on than any other club. We have twice as many legends of the game in our backstory. We have twice as many ghosts we have to perform for. We are a club where every grade trains together. We have people in our club from all over the world. We take our women’s football seriously. We support our local areas. Take the message all the way. Sell the Wests Tigers this way. Drill it in to the players at every level.
I could go into more detail but I’ve prattled on to the point of essay here. In summary I think what I would like to see from the Wests Tigers most is the following:
Bunker in. Minimal media from anyone. We’re not listening. We’re going to figure this out on our own. Our players and coaches need to bind and everyone needs to become across the goals set and everyone understand the part they are meant to play
No more signing yesterday’s heroes (unless they are paid next to nothing and come from strong clubs). If we sign Mitchell Pearce I am going to march on Concord.
More youth development. I want results KPIs on the General Manager of Football that extends to SG Ball, Jersey Flegg, NSW Cup.
A rebrand. Logo and all. By next year I want to see a new identity for the Tigers, corporate and football. Figure out who we are and scream it from the rooftops. May I recommend “The Unity Club” and focus on promoting the JV as the positive that it is?
I want us to sign another 3 or 4 solid vets from other clubs. Under the radar signings. Help turn the culture over. No overpays.
If we do decide we need a new coach. It needs to be someone untried but well regarded and they need to be given the rule of the roost. Like Shanahan was at the Niners, and like Maguire was at Melbourne. I personally give Madge until the end of next season not to get us to the finals but to make the process visibly different.
We all know by now that we are supporting a broken club in need of complete restoration. Fans and the media demand success now, and it drives us nuts to see year after year no results. But what’s worse is when you see things like what happened on Sunday in particular. And for me we will only be able to summon the likes of Tommy, or the spirit of Leichhardt, or whatever ghost of rugby league it needs to, when the club actually embraces it’s identity as a positive thing and believes it.
@needaname said in Recruitment:
@facepalmer said in Recruitment:
@needaname said in Recruitment:
@facepalmer said in Recruitment:
I mapped out the way I would handle recruitment strategy in a post back in April. I actually think now I’d probably even just completely ditch targeting marquees at all because our club is forced to pay premiums for any of them if we want them and we just really shouldn’t do it. Maybe one day we can land marquee talent at market value but not while our club is in the shape it is.
https://weststigersforum.com/topic/32217/recruitment-strategy-for-2021-and-beyond?_=1626863349472
What’s your call on Newcastle?
Interesting how you mentioned you only go all out if you think you have a shot at the premiership.
Did they ditch their initial rebuild strategy too early. Which was through their juniors whilst recruiting quality experienced players around them.
In one year they went from signing Kurt Mann and Jacob Lillyman to signing Mitchell Pearce and David Klemmer.
Did they jump the premiership window gun too soon?
Would they been better off holding out a couple more years for some of those young players they ditched to build a better squad core and depth?I ask because I feel like we are at that point right now where they were, ‘crying foul that even though Jack Bird promised them the world he went for a higher profile club with a perceived better outcome.’
From that moment though they hit the switch and just bought every discard.
100% correct. They should never have signed Klemmer especially on big money. Nor probably Connor Watson either. They are in a very similar boat to us, but they have further to go to get out of it.
I agree with everything you said here.
Thanks.
It’s hard to say whether some of Newcastle’s recent recruitment choices were building blocks to give time to development or whether they were crucially bad decisions.
You could make a case for Klemmer being a leader for Safiti to build into the force his become.
Young Brailey is a talent and like Ponga was bought with a long term goal in mind after moving on from Levi and not giving Starling much opportunity.
Pearce though; they moved on their talented halves in Cocker, Lamb, and even young Madden and kept only Crossland.
Same goes for Meany being discarded as nothing but a backup for Ponga.
I believe in recruiting Frizzell last year they were expecting to be well in the race this year. Sure injuries have crippled them. As did it to Manly last year and 2018 where the teams depth was exposed.
The same thing is happening to the Knights this year. They’ve over spent on the top end of the cap and it’s affected the quality of the remainder of the squad.In part I see the Bulldogs either going down that path next year or following a similar trend to the Eels in 2018. On paper they looked top 4. But it didn’t work out that way for them.
Although there is also a chance they pull off a 2013 bought premiership but. The big factor that needs to change is the club itself. They are not the Roosters. Do they have it in them to think and achieve excellence and do each of their recruits believe it’s possible.
Exactly. For the Dogs strategy to work requires them to not have to test their depth because there isn’t going to be much. They’re going to have to gut their roster to fit the signings they’ve made in. Even then they just simply might not get over the hump. They may not gel. They may have culture issues. They may have off field concerns. JAC and TPJ in Sydney sounds fun!
Recruitment - Don’t pay overs. Sign young players from other clubs that have great qualities that are stuck behind quality first graders. Preferably good clubs. If you can get quality culture guys at good prices do it. We aren’t the Roosters, if we try to sign a top 10 NRL player we will pay a premium and ruin our cap.
Retention - Reward performance. Reward culture oriented behaviour. Don’t pay overs just because they are at your club.
Development - The prime focus of the Wests Tigers. Success in junior rep teams will breed success at the top grade. Poach quality kids from other clubs at a young age and develop them through our junior teams. Take advantage of our extremely large catchment. Continue to poach the eyeballs out of the massive SEQ catchment. Add more pathways in country NSW and NZ. Actually put energy and effort into winning the Matts, SG Ball and the Flegg. Maybe even worth running Wests Tigers teams in the former two comps so that our best players come up together rather than having the separation.
Don’t sign marquees. Stop actually trying to because it just frustrates the fans. Never pay overs whether to retain or sign. Keep poaching the eyeballs out of juniors.
I am confident that Hartigan is playing his part. That Pascoe is bringing Sheens back and signed Kimmorley indicates he is putting the focus on development too! Great stuff.
@geo said in Recruitment:
@facepalmer said in Recruitment:
@geo said in Recruitment:
@facepalmer said in Recruitment:
@geo said in Recruitment:
@pj said in Recruitment:
@geo said in Recruitment:
What makes everyone so sure that the current roster will play for a different coach…
Shouldn’t they want to play for personal performance and some pride in the jersey they put on…
Sure the Dogs recruitment has been out of this world on paper as was the Knights a few year back…it’s got them nowhere really…basically they went away from junior development to trying to buy success…hasn’t really worked out yet…doesn’t look like it’s going too
It’s yet to be seen if it does at the Dogs…could work…could flop massively…
Building from within does produce results if done properly… You develop Jake Simpkin to be our Harry Grant, Stefano Utoikamanu to be our Payne Hass, Tuki Simpkins to be our Pangia Jnr and so on… Sure that doesn’t mean if quality becomes available you don’t have a crack or even pay overs if they are exceptional quality Brandon Smith like…
Buying comps has never been as successful as building them…
Our club is great at finding and developing promising juniors. Unfortunately we are terrible at retaining them
Tim Sheens didn’t have that issue in retaining them… We were only terrible through the Potter/Taylor/Voldamort years…
That needs to change clearly they are putting measures in place to rectify those shortfalls…
Here’s an analogy.
You are the best at what you do. You win industry awards. But the company doesn’t grow and you can’t grow because of it. You look around you and your managers are dinosaurs or idiots with bad reputations. Suddenly GOOGLE sends you a message on LinkedIn. “We want you and will make you the highest paid employee in your entire industry”.
Do you leave or stay?
How many times in the Sheens era did we hear Farah and Benji state they stayed for less than they could have got elsewhere… yes it turned sour at the end…mainly because Sheens wanted to refresh the boys Club …The downhill slide really began and the Wests Tigers have never recovered…
If you believe in what you are doing you stay and make your mark but that’s me…
Farah and Benji stayed because they were paid a TON, massive overs, backloaded overs and we did that because we had a wide open premiership window between 2010 and 2012.
The main reason it turned sour is because we sacked Sheens after a single down year that mostly caused by injuries when in reality if you look at the Roosters (and ignore Melbourne), single down years when you have backloaded stars are a given eventually anyway. We chose to listen to the players and sacked Sheens whose long term plan to build us into a consistent contending team had actually just started to work (even though he was no doubt unusual and frustrating at times).
You will never stay at an organisation you don’t believe in, on unders. You may stay for massive overs. An exception would be if you were on the back nine and cared more about stability and security, didn’t believe you had much else to accomplish etc.
Yes there where on a ton but your hypothetical was if someone else offered more would you take it…they claimed they were offered more…
My analogy was more about James Tedesco anyway. The Roosters being Google and our show being a joke at the time. You can’t really compete with the Roosters when they really want a player. It’s just something we have to live with. Losing Papenhuyzen was really sad in hindsight but every team loses good young players (we have been feasting on other team’s juniors lately). The biggest misfire that we probably should cop on the chin is Addo-Carr given he apparently loved the club but again I put that down to the head coach at the time also for persistently not picking him in first grade. Moses leaving was completely on the head coach at the time so can’t really be counted against us (nor does anyone miss the dude, nor has he won a comp since or really achieved much). In my opinion Matterson and Aloiai both left because they were not treated like the marquees they thought they both were, and that’s an extension of how we treat new signings. Don’t pay overs just because they’re already at the club. Matterson has gone on to be worse at Parramatta and Aloiai is off the bench at Manly. No losses either of them really. Keeping either of them changes our fortunes none in my view.
Look at some of the other players we’ve moved on. Marsters has gone nowhere. McIntyre isn’t doing much.
My main point here is that even retention isn’t as bad as it looks. The biggest single reason we are suffering right now is because we made the mistake of giving Cleary carte blanche to make signings when we had a war chest and he went and paid massive overs on long contracts for players that were valued exceedingly badly. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad coach but he made a terrible mistake and cost us bigly. So long as we have the right coaches in our club actually developing our talent, and our systems and processes are on an equal playing field Hartigan’s approach to roster management is sustainable and will work. I am pretty dang sure of it.
@gnr4life said in Luke Brooks:
@facepalmer said in Luke Brooks:
@bigsiro said in Luke Brooks:
@cochise said in Luke Brooks:
@hobbo1 said in Luke Brooks:
@cochise said in Luke Brooks:
@bigsiro said in Luke Brooks:
@demps said in Luke Brooks:
@the_patriot said in Luke Brooks:
If for arguments sake we consider Scott Prince a 10. What score do you apply to Luke Brooks.
6
Don’t know how to consider Prince a 10.
Tried to think, I’m sure I missed a few here:
Johns would be the closest thing I have seen to a 10.
Thurston, Cronk, Stuart, Langer 9
Brandy, Sterlo, 8
Toovey, Stacey Jones, Wiz 7
Maybe Prince sits at this level at his absolute peak .Brooks isn’t anywhere near as good as those guys so I guess he must sit quite a few rungs down from there.
As far as Wests tigers halfbacks go, I’d put him below Robert Lui but above John Morris.
Below Lui?
For sure … Lui was good
Yeah he was, his inability to be a decent human being cost us greatly as he was critical in the success of the 2010 and 11 teams. I think Prince was the better player though.
Prince was better than Lui. I meant that Lui was better than Brooks. Remember that Lui only had a short stint with us and in that time we went pretty deep in finals. Having said that, if Brooks was in that team he might have done as good. It’s hard to ignore the fact that Benji was Golden Boot and he had the ability at the time to make everyone around him look incredible.
Lui was not better than Brooks. Brooks is clearly the superior player. Your eyes would have to be painted on to think otherwise. Lui was the ultimate turnstyle in defense and Benji practically carried that team. If Brooks played in that team instead of Lui we win the comp.
I was a fan of Lui, but Brooks is better on longevity alone.
There are two sides to a football game and Brooks is maybe the best in the game at defense and Lui was the worst. Someone may wish to make an argument that Lui is a better attacker, I disagree and think it’s clear, but even if he is it doesn’t make up the defensive gap.
@geo said in Recruitment:
@facepalmer said in Recruitment:
@geo said in Recruitment:
@pj said in Recruitment:
@geo said in Recruitment:
What makes everyone so sure that the current roster will play for a different coach…
Shouldn’t they want to play for personal performance and some pride in the jersey they put on…
Sure the Dogs recruitment has been out of this world on paper as was the Knights a few year back…it’s got them nowhere really…basically they went away from junior development to trying to buy success…hasn’t really worked out yet…doesn’t look like it’s going too
It’s yet to be seen if it does at the Dogs…could work…could flop massively…
Building from within does produce results if done properly… You develop Jake Simpkin to be our Harry Grant, Stefano Utoikamanu to be our Payne Hass, Tuki Simpkins to be our Pangia Jnr and so on… Sure that doesn’t mean if quality becomes available you don’t have a crack or even pay overs if they are exceptional quality Brandon Smith like…
Buying comps has never been as successful as building them…
Our club is great at finding and developing promising juniors. Unfortunately we are terrible at retaining them
Tim Sheens didn’t have that issue in retaining them… We were only terrible through the Potter/Taylor/Voldamort years…
That needs to change clearly they are putting measures in place to rectify those shortfalls…
Here’s an analogy.
You are the best at what you do. You win industry awards. But the company doesn’t grow and you can’t grow because of it. You look around you and your managers are dinosaurs or idiots with bad reputations. Suddenly GOOGLE sends you a message on LinkedIn. “We want you and will make you the highest paid employee in your entire industry”.
Do you leave or stay?
How many times in the Sheens era did we hear Farah and Benji state they stayed for less than they could have got elsewhere… yes it turned sour at the end…mainly because Sheens wanted to refresh the boys Club …The downhill slide really began and the Wests Tigers have never recovered…
If you believe in what you are doing you stay and make your mark but that’s me…
Farah and Benji stayed because they were paid a TON, massive overs, backloaded overs and we did that because we had a wide open premiership window between 2010 and 2012.
The main reason it turned sour is because we sacked Sheens after a single down year that mostly caused by injuries when in reality if you look at the Roosters (and ignore Melbourne), single down years when you have backloaded stars are a given eventually anyway. We chose to listen to the players and sacked Sheens whose long term plan to build us into a consistent contending team had actually just started to work (even though he was no doubt unusual and frustrating at times).
You will never stay at an organisation you don’t believe in, on unders. You may stay for massive overs. An exception would be if you were on the back nine and cared more about stability and security, didn’t believe you had much else to accomplish etc.
@needaname said in Recruitment:
@facepalmer said in Recruitment:
I mapped out the way I would handle recruitment strategy in a post back in April. I actually think now I’d probably even just completely ditch targeting marquees at all because our club is forced to pay premiums for any of them if we want them and we just really shouldn’t do it. Maybe one day we can land marquee talent at market value but not while our club is in the shape it is.
https://weststigersforum.com/topic/32217/recruitment-strategy-for-2021-and-beyond?_=1626863349472
What’s your call on Newcastle?
Interesting how you mentioned you only go all out if you think you have a shot at the premiership.
Did they ditch their initial rebuild strategy too early. Which was through their juniors whilst recruiting quality experienced players around them.
In one year they went from signing Kurt Mann and Jacob Lillyman to signing Mitchell Pearce and David Klemmer.
Did they jump the premiership window gun too soon?
Would they been better off holding out a couple more years for some of those young players they ditched to build a better squad core and depth?I ask because I feel like we are at that point right now where they were, ‘crying foul that even though Jack Bird promised them the world he went for a higher profile club with a perceived better outcome.’
From that moment though they hit the switch and just bought every discard.
100% correct. They should never have signed Klemmer especially on big money. Nor probably Connor Watson either. They are in a very similar boat to us, but they have further to go to get out of it.
I agree with everything you said here.
@bigsiro said in Luke Brooks:
@cochise said in Luke Brooks:
@hobbo1 said in Luke Brooks:
@cochise said in Luke Brooks:
@bigsiro said in Luke Brooks:
@demps said in Luke Brooks:
@the_patriot said in Luke Brooks:
If for arguments sake we consider Scott Prince a 10. What score do you apply to Luke Brooks.
6
Don’t know how to consider Prince a 10.
Tried to think, I’m sure I missed a few here:
Johns would be the closest thing I have seen to a 10.
Thurston, Cronk, Stuart, Langer 9
Brandy, Sterlo, 8
Toovey, Stacey Jones, Wiz 7
Maybe Prince sits at this level at his absolute peak .Brooks isn’t anywhere near as good as those guys so I guess he must sit quite a few rungs down from there.
As far as Wests tigers halfbacks go, I’d put him below Robert Lui but above John Morris.
Below Lui?
For sure … Lui was good
Yeah he was, his inability to be a decent human being cost us greatly as he was critical in the success of the 2010 and 11 teams. I think Prince was the better player though.
Prince was better than Lui. I meant that Lui was better than Brooks. Remember that Lui only had a short stint with us and in that time we went pretty deep in finals. Having said that, if Brooks was in that team he might have done as good. It’s hard to ignore the fact that Benji was Golden Boot and he had the ability at the time to make everyone around him look incredible.
Lui was not better than Brooks. Brooks is clearly the superior player. Your eyes would have to be painted on to think otherwise. Lui was the ultimate turnstyle in defense and Benji practically carried that team. If Brooks played in that team instead of Lui we win the comp.
@weststigerman said in Pangai Junior:
Correction. TPJ has got 1 point this year.
Still behind about 15-20 other back rowers though.
Where does Luciano Leilua score?
@avocadoontoast said in Pangai Junior:
@weststigerman said in Pangai Junior:
Just saw an interesting stat around TPJ. Hasn’t scored a Dally M point since 2018. No origin, no winning, no Dally M points - his manager has done an amazing job to get 750k per season.
I didn’t go back that far but Finucane has only scored 2 points since 2020 and half the forum is absolutely frothing over him. I don’t think dally m points mean anything really.
Finucane is a different type of player. They’d never get Dally M points. TPJ’s meant to be a Fifita esque gamebreaker. How many Dally M points has Fifita scored in that timeframe? Or Haas for that matter?
He is a great miss. Luciano Leilua is without doubt better and more consistent than him. Legit. Leilua is a far better player even with his flaws. TPJ has the same flaws and more.
@bagnf05 said in Recruitment:
@facepalmer said in Recruitment:
We are not an attractive club. News at 11. The reason? We’re poorly run, disorganised, have a bad culture. Our best players have to scrape and beg for respect. Sometimes they leave and suddenly they’re considered superstars. There are other clubs that struggle similarly for different, more permanent reasons.
North QLD - Location mostly.
Warriors - Also location unless you’re a Kiwi.
Canberra - Location.These clubs have had successful periods, none of which came from massive recruitment drives. In actuality let’s look at the last 20 NRL premiership winning sides and see how many of these sides had genuine stars they threw the chequebook at.
2000 Brisbane Broncos - Almost entirely local products and very few star signings with the exception of Gorden Tallis and Luke Priddis.
2001 Newcastle Knights - A single sorta marquee signing but not really because he mostly fulfilled his potential once he got here, Ben Kennedy. The rest were Newcastle products or randoms.
2002 Sydney Roosters - Almost entirely mercenaries. A few guys they blooded that they found from the bush and Western Sydney + Bryan Fletcher and Luke Ricketson make up the rest. Names like Brett Mullins, Brad Fittler, Justin Hodges, Adrian Morley. A genuinely bought premiership.
2003 - Penrith Panthers - Surprisingly did have a few quality signings that weren’t produced at Penrith including Wesser, Girdler, Campbell, Priddis plus a few other lesser lights that they signed. Smart signings though and still had a ton of developed talent.
2004 - Bulldogs - I suppose you could say they poached Andrew Ryan maybe.
2005 - Tigers - We know this one. Hobbled Scott Prince and a few other tried horses plus a bunch of Tigers produce.
2006 - Broncos - Brisbane products.
2007 - Storm* - Marquee signing Anthony Quinn?
2008 - Manly - Jamie Lyon coming off a stint in the ESL, Steven Bell and Josh Perry are the only signings at all. Could hardly call any of them marquee signings.
2009 - Storm* - Scrapheap Brett Finch the big signing.
2010 - Dragons - They bought this premiership by buying Wayne Bennett who dragged his son along with him as well as Neville Costigan. Aside from that, pretty much all development.
2011 - Manly - Pretty much no new signings since 2008 though they had developed some more talent that wasn’t present in 2008 such as Foran and DCE. Impressive that they won a comp with an entirely different halves pairing a mere 3 seasons after they had already won one. Brought through a new generation of leaders without sacrificing performance. Orford and Lyon even still playing in the NRL at the time. Competence par excellence.
2012 - Storm* - The team that found it so difficult to compete with the salary cap they had to cheat even though they signed nobody because no RL players actually want to live in Melbourne (seriously they all move away the minute they retire). They had no new marquee signings. A few fringe guys they turned into quality like Waqa yeah. Widdop had come through to replace Scrapheap Finch. That’s what they do, they still do it.
2013 - Roosters - Another bought premiership by the Roosters though to their credit they had developed a fair bit of talent to go along with poaching targets such as Michael Jennings, Sonny Bill Williams, Luke O’Donnell and James Maloney. Some of their own product that year included SKD, RTS, Jake Friend, Mitchell Pearce and Boyd Cordner among others. But the pattern is clear. The Roosters can’t develop talent. They are pretty decent at poaching talent from elsewhere at young ages such as Minichiello (Sam Walker anyone), but they can’t win comps unless they steal the best players in the NRL from other teams. They are literally the only club who actually can do this and it can only be one of two ways. They either cheat the cap, or players sign for unders because of the secret society they get to join that is worth more than money because they get to drink the blood of virgins on offshore superyacht parties. Or both. It is probably definitely both.
2014 - Souths - Kind of a miracle team tbqh. You could argue they bought it… but outside of GI it was mostly developed talent coupled with the Burgess acquisitions and Ben Te’o. England players are wildcards tbh. In actuality stacking your side with English forwards is a pretty good indicator of success when you look at what players like Adrian Morley, Gareth Ellis, James Graham and the Burgii have done for sides. But they still had Keary, Reynolds and Koro in the spine who were Souths development successes.
2015 - Cowboys - I mean, looking past the fact that the 2014, 15 and 16 premierships were literally the NRL rigging them for fairytales (don’t pretend you weren’t there), the Cowboys had signed zero marquee players from elsewhere at all.
2016 - Sharks - A little bit like that early century Penrith side. They actually did have a few buys, but it wasn’t exactly marquee talent. Ben Barba was a bit of a scrapheap signing because of off field drama, Jack Bird was a youth poaching, Jimmy Maloney wasn’t really rated that highly at the time. Tbh in a sliding doors universe we could have been the premiers that year had we landed Luke Lewis, picked right between Fifita and Groat and signed James Maloney or something. Long story short, a little more bought than usual.
2017 - Storm - Same old Storm. All their singing were just incredible coups like Addo-Carr, Curtis Scott, one dimensional players they get running through walls like Dale Finucane or wily vets like Will Chambers.
2018 - Roosters - Roosters gonna Rooster. They bought Tedesco, Keary, Cronk and Fergo and they bought another premiership.
2019 - Roosters - Add Brett Morris to replace Blake Ferguson and see above.
2020.- Storm - Paps (youth coup), Vuni (talent ID), Olam (talent ID), Brenko (scrapheap), JAC (coup), Munster (talent ID), Hughes (scrapheap), Bromwich (talent ID) etc. etc. etc.
What does this all say.
Well, very very occasionally a team wins a premiership by filling out their roster with good quality first graders they sign from elsewhere. In almost all cases it gets them one premiership and is followed by a lull. This heavily indicates that the teams that do this (02 Panthers, 14 Souths, 16 Sharks) redline very hard to do so and probably also heavily backload contracts sacrificing future seasons. Which is a Roosters special. They don’t do it as good as the Roosters because the Roosters have a Roosters quality about them that is some mystery and I solved it, it’s actually Nick Politis is Satan. Anywho point being, the Roosters can and do buy premierships. They are the only side that seemingly can just decide to go get the best player in the NRL and then win a comp in doing so. Every other team that does anything like this ends up overpaying in doing so, ruins their squad depth and they don’t succeed.
Almost every premier in the last 20 years were strategically developed squads comprised mostly of junior talent they themselves brought through, with a very small sprinkling of quality but not top signings from outside. Wildcard of English forwards winning comps.
We are not the Roosters. We don’t have a secret society at our club. We cannot buy our way to a premiership. We CAN and absolutely SHOULD develop our way there. Sheens knows that and knows how to rebuild our pathways. I do hope that is exactly what he is here to do. Because that is in fact our strength. With the Centre of Excellence coming we will at least finally be able to compete on an even playing field in those terms, but that’ll only bring us up to square with Parramatta and Penrith. It won’t make us the Roosters. Hartigan is an actual genius. There is no point making overpaid marquee signings. If your ultimate goal is to come 4th or 5th every year I suppose you could do that. Say hello to the Parramatta Eels for the last several years. If you want sustained, continual actual performance. Just be patient, set your development pathways, get your off field right, get your coaching right and it will come. So it didn’t work with the “Big 4”. It doesn’t matter. One misfire doesn’t offset the data. The results do not lie. We do not buy our way out of this. We tried that, it was dumb. Stop complaining about recruitment woes. We are active in the market, we have our prices, we are looking for value, we are unwilling to compromise. This is a good thing. Don’t let the likes of James Hooper and other fellow numpties psychologically manipulate you into adding to the beating drum that leads to nowhere.
Our 2022 Roster has good composition. It might not win a comp, but it patterns to be quite typical of the rosters of many of the teams that have won comps over the last 20 years. Except Mbye we have to get rid of him so bad, and definitely don’t sign the CO for Joey Leilua. The rest is good. More of the same.
Monster post jeez. I’d take 4th or 5th every year.
You would right now because of how much it has sucked but once you get there and can’t win a comp it begins to feel exactly the same or worse. Ask any Eels fan.