What a wretched thread this is, I’ve just read it start to finish with the benefit of hindsight.

So many fans so quick to cast a judgement without the facts, then waste time analysing the “intent” or “hidden meaning” of club press releases.

It starts to border on twitter-type toxicity, frankly. Even the earlier suggestion, along the lines of “what can’t his wife drive herself!?!?” and it gets 4 or 5 thumbs-up. Toxic.

You have to wonder, honestly, people complain so much about the apparent fragility or “lack of mental toughness” of players during football games, but think nothing of heaping crap on those same players week on week, or at a moment’s notice based on something they think they read in the paper. As if the two aren’t related, as if the player won’t do better if there is less external noise.

Esp during COVID year, without precedent. I suppose everyone outside of football is doing just great, no fighting with the wife, no stress or pressure, no unique challenges, no mistakes made or difficulty concentrating on the immediate task.

@Russell said in Matterson unhappy at Tigers?:

@Tiger_Steve said in Matterson unhappy at Tigers?:

@Russell said in Matterson unhappy at Tigers?:

@Tiger_Steve said in Matterson unhappy at Tigers?:

@Harvey said in Matterson unhappy at Tigers?:

I will be cancelling my membership rollover tomorrow. Want to see how this plays out

I’m doing the same. I sent an email to WestsTigers AFTER I rolled over my membership stating how disenfranchised I felt as a member. I listed many ways that I felt the club showed no respect for members. I also listed ways to turn members into advocates for the club. I received back an explanation that simply justified everything they did.
Now, yet again, we are in the middle of a crap fight. This garbage never happens at Melbourne or roosters.
I’ll always support the club and I’ll watch every game but I’m showing my disappointment by pulling my membership. Sad thing, the club couldn’t care less.

Doesn’t rolling over the m’ship mean you are renewing?

If so, did you say in your email that you are opting out?

I initially opted in. I’ve since said not to renew my membership

Sad Steve, Think we four may end up doing the same.

I don’t get you guys. Cleary backstabs Tigers and now Matto might be doing the same, and your response is to withdraw membership and penalise the club.

I don’t know what you expect the club to do. Damned in all directions if your key signing suddenly wants more money and kicks stones to get his way.

“This never happens at the Storm or Roosters”. Well, firstly, go support those damned clubs if that is the benchmark. Secondly, no, teams currently in the top 1 or 2 clubs tend to not have too many upset players.

But actually contract nonsense happens at every club, that’s unfortunately part of the deal with sports. Folau backstabbed Melbourne to sign a 4-year deal with Broncos after his debut season. Justin Hodges sought out a mid-year transfer to Broncos from the Roosters in 2004. Ryan Cross strung the Roosters along for a while then defected to rugby. Will Chambers defected to rugby after the 2009 GF. RTS turned down a Roosters deal to take on a lucrative one at Warriors. Rarely do players publicly weasel their way out of deals, but they “backstab” clubs all the time.

“I’ll still support the club and watch every game”, but, you know, I won’t part with any money, to show Tigers how disappointed I am. That’s such a disappointing outlook. I understand if money is a problem, but to quit on the Tigers when they need support the most. I mean, bandwagoning is easy, easy as pie to ride with the successful team. But the club needs strong supporters when times are tough.

Apparently we need tougher management and a tough coach, but supporters can just quit.

A couple of things:

(1) There was no Pooper warning, please remember the regulations.

(2) Looks like 95% of fans are united that we back the coach, and it’s not so common to have unity amongst fans, so at least that’s a good thing.

(3) Players SHOULD be walking on eggshells fearing the outcome of repeat poor performances. The opposite is complacency.

(4) There hasn’t been a single player unduly dropped in 2020. They’ve all had plenty of opportunity and the coach has always stuck strong for a decent period.

(5) The team lacks toughness, that’s our primary issue. There is some talent, there is effort, but we lack toughness in those difficult moments, particularly season 2020 where the rules have changed (literally) and COVID has affected everyone’s preparation. So many teams in 2020 are fragile, but it’s not something we should be excusing.

(6) Where a team lacks toughness, you bring in a tough coach. I don’t care about “losing dressing room” or “lack of delicate man management” if the toughness is missing, first and foremost. Talk to me about improved player management when they are tough first.

(7) Broncos are a prime example of a team full of talent, playing like busteds and lacking the mental toughness to do anything about it. Seibold is a snowflake and the roster has responded by failing to do any hard work. That is not the direction Tigers need to go, and we are on a knife’s edge right now of getting better or far worse.

(8) This is a rare opportunity to do the opposite of Tigers 2012-2019 - back the coach, work out a new single-stadium deal and double-down on culture development, player strength and conditioning, junior investment. Identify the trouble-makers and weak-minded and put them on the sidelines.

@Madge said in Pascoe and madge pull an ivan:

@avocadoontoast 100%

Some fans so quick to stick the boot into the club again. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it, stop complaining.

Yes it’s pretty amateur, it’s probably two dudes using a company laptop and some mikes they bought on ebay, but who cares. Have a laugh if you find it amusing, don’t get upset.

Consider it an insight into the shoestring budget this club might be operating under.

Are other clubs doing live Q&As? They didn’t have to do it live, they could have edited it, played safe, posted it up next week. In fact they didn’t have to do it at all.

I’ve read a lot of folks past few weeks demanding the club comment on the off-field stuff happening right now and plans for 2020, so they make this effort, and same or other fans say - pointless.

Got an essay here

I want to start by saying this thread prompted me to have a think about what’s going on with Tigers fans pre-season 2020. We’ve finished 9th a million times and not played finals most years, but there appears to me to be an unprecedented doom and gloom on here.

Personally, how one might have had optimism in the first year of, say, the Potter or Jason Taylor reigns, but have lost it now, I don’t know. I’m pretty convinced that Madge is a far better calibre of coach than those two and, dare I say it, the best credentialed coach we’ve ever had besides Tim Sheens.

Similarly, @avocadoontoast posted, re hoisting the white flag

“I’d be ok hoisting it now to be honest. I’ve just about had enough.

Why this year? Tigers have struggled for as long as I’ve been alive, but why 2020 is it now too much?

Clearly the team needs to be better and that either comes from improving the current players, or improving the roster. I have a strong impression that this whole Latrell business has really gotten to some people, simply because there was this opportunity of rapidly and handsomely improving the roster in one single shot, and now it appears to have been lost, and it’s crushed a few people.

These people otherwise have no confidence in improving the current players, because that’s been a long-term strategy that hasn’t worked out, and Madge simply managed to repeat the previous middle-ground 9th, same as always. I get that.

So I was thinking about the OP for a while, and the question I ask is: how many clubs sign “elite” players at all? Assuming there’s some significant amount of elite player trade and the Tigers are one of the few teams unable to get involved.

Let’s define “elite” as Origin representative quality or better. Then let’s look at the Origin sides in Game 1 2019:

Kalyn Ponga – signed by Newy the year he debuted Origin
Corey Oates – still at original club
Michael Morgan – still at original club
Will Chambers – still at original club
Dane Gagai – signed by Newy 3 years before playing Origin, signed by Souths 3 years after playing Origin
Cameron Munster – still at original club
Daly Cherry-Evans – still at original club
Jai Arrow – signed by Titans the year he debuted Origin
Ben Hunt – signed by Dragons the year after his Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Josh Papalii – still at original club
Felise Kaufusi – still at original club
Matt Gillett – still at original club
Josh McGuire – signed by Cows 4 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Moses Mbye – signed by Tigers year before Origin debut
Joe Ofahengaue – still at original club
Dylan Napa – signed by Dogs 2 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Easts)
David Fifita – still at original club

James Tedesco – signed by Easts 2 years after playing Origin (debuted with original club Tigers)
Nick Cotric – still at original club
Latrell Mitchell – still at original club
Josh Morris – signed by Bulldogs same year as Origin debut
Josh Addo-Carr – signed by Storm 1 year before Origin debut
Cody Walker – still at original club
Nathan Cleary – still at original club
David Klemmer – signed w Newy 4 years after Origin debut
Damien Cook – signed by Dogs 4 years before Origin debut, signed by Souths 2 years before debut
Paul Vaughan – signed by Dragons 1 year before Origin debut
Boyd Cordner – still at original club
Tyson Frizell – signed with Dragons 3 years before Origin debut
Jake Trbojevic – still at original club
Jack Wighton – still at original club
Payne Haas – still at original club
Cameron Murray – still at original club
Angus Crichton – signed with Easts year after Origin debut

What is striking in this example is that 19/34 (56%) players are still with their debut club. A further 9 (26%) players signed with their second NRL club before their Origin debut, i.e. were not rep-level players at the time they signed.

That leaves just 6/34 (18%) players who moved to a second club after becoming Origin players.

You look at those in further detail, you have:
Hunt – headhunted for $1M by Dragons, you can fairly say hasn’t worked out
McGuire – signed by Cows after being released by Broncos
Napa – signed by Dogs after being released by Roosters
Tedesco – headhunted for $1M by Roosters
Klemmer – released by Dogs for personal reasons, signed for $850K
Crichton – headhunted by Roosters for close to $1M

So 50% of the players who joined a second club after their Origin debut were released by their incumbent, and the other 50% are all $1M headhunting efforts, mostly by the Roosters.

This data indicates that it’s much more likely to have an Origin player developed from within your club, than sign such a player from another club. I.e. the player either debuted for your side or joined your side before being selected for Origin.

You can argue that some players were signed on the cusp of, or with expectation of, playing Origin, which is fine, but then Moses Mbye and probably Ryan Matterson fit that description, in which case the Tigers DO sign elite-level players.

The other striking feature of these Origin players is that I believe only 3 have had more than 2 clubs – Gagai, Josh Morris and Cook, and Cook was is a technicality because he only played 2 games on debut for the Dragons. Josh Morris has only just completed 1 year with Sharks and only played 2 seasons with Dragons before leaving. Gagai is really the only example in this list of a player headhunted by a 3rd club after being an Origin rep.

Therefore even if you try to sign an Origin-calibre player, the data suggests they are unlikely to move clubs more than once.

Fundamentally, the data suggests that there isn’t a particularly large trade in elite players, and actually most rep-level players are developed from within, or tactically headhunted before they reach Origin level. This would then say that Tigers primary focus should not be signing elite players, but rather developing our own elite players, or astutely buying players who may be elite propositions within a few seasons.

To try and actually sign an existing and established elite player, you typically need $1M or need to be on the lucky end of a secured release, which is the Latrell situation. The secured release is risky, because it says that the incumbent club WANTS to be rid of the player.

And finally, to be headhunting these elite players, the only real clubs to do it successfully in the current crop of rep players are Easts, Souths and, funnily enough, Newcastle.

So is it really the situation that Tigers are consistently unable to secure elite talent, or is it more accurate to say that elite talent infrequently moves around, and when it does, there are a shortlist of clubs that have the success / pulling power to jag these elite players. And then when elite players do move, it will cost you $1M.

@Demps said in Salary Cap Detail 2019 & 2020:

too much time on your hands.
try going outside.

Don’t be a douchebag, if someone takes the trouble to analyse and discuss something that they are interested in. If you are personally disinterested, move on.

@avocadoontoast said in Deja Vu - Crawley article:

I hate Crawley but most of what he’s written is correct unfortunately.

Half correct if he’s lucky. Incorrect or pure opinion:

• 300K spending money
• Tigers trying to offload all of Mbye, Brooks, Packer, Reynolds
• BJ and Doueihi being bad signings
• Tigers trying to play JAC at fullback
• “Heavy lifting” by Shane Richo and Johnny Lang at Souths - they got Souths to 9th and 10th both of Lang’s years, but that’s exactly what Fatso is criticising Madge for in the article
• tremendous squad including John Sutton - “including” Sutton yes, by way of fact, but tremendous = no
• In “January Harry Grant was coming” - the deal was not done until March 21 and until then it was pure theory with NRL no guarantee to allow the move

Typical DT crap to troll fans, with broad swipes of semi-fact mixed in with rumours, opinions and un-named quotes.

But it’s an easy target to harangue middle-of-road clubs, you could write the same opinion piece about Sharks, Manly, Titans, Broncos, Souths, Dragons, Warriors etc. and it would all be “somewhat” true, based solely on # wins and nothing else.

But you’ll not find Crawley writing anything against Souths on account of his husband Bennett providing them a shield.

Forum: can’t coach speed, Tigers lack speed, speed is power, please buy speed

Tigers: Interested in Sami and will table offer

Forum: yeah he’s fast but what else does he have?

@hammertime said in Matterson unhappy at Tigers?:

If true, hopefully Madge can admit fault, apologise and promise to be better going forward.

Or, if true, Madge can say “that’s what we need of you mate, you are one of our best players”. Why should the coach be apologising for asking players to extend themselves?

Are Tigers supposed to be a tough team that does whatever it takes to win, or do we go about apologising to players for asking them to exert themselves? Exactly what type of club are we aspiring to be?

There’s this persistent criticism of Madge that he “lost the players” at Souths and needs to learn something or other about his expectations and man-management. Yet, by all accounts, he learned this side of coaching from Craig Bellamy, who is the greatest coach of all time. So then we appear to be asking Madge to not try to emulate Craig Bellamy.

Madge has been removed from 1 team total, so it’s a sample of 1. Maybe he trained Souths too hard or maybe they got lazy.

Personally, Madge has proven he can take an average side and fashion them into contenders. He got a premiership by doing this. I really don’t care which players fall by the wayside if he can achieve this for Wests Tigers. If he can get us 1 premiership and then be let go for being too tough after 5 or 6 seasons, so be it.

@GNR4LIFE said in Pascoe and madge pull an ivan:

@jirskyr said in Pascoe and madge pull an ivan:

@Madge said in Pascoe and madge pull an ivan:

@avocadoontoast 100%

Some fans so quick to stick the boot into the club again. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it, stop complaining.

Yes it’s pretty amateur, it’s probably two dudes using a company laptop and some mikes they bought on ebay, but who cares. Have a laugh if you find it amusing, don’t get upset.

Consider it an insight into the shoestring budget this club might be operating under.

Are other clubs doing live Q&As? They didn’t have to do it live, they could have edited it, played safe, posted it up next week. In fact they didn’t have to do it at all.

I’ve read a lot of folks past few weeks demanding the club comment on the off-field stuff happening right now and plans for 2020, so they make this effort, and same or other fans say - pointless.

Good point. Have a laugh, but why get upset? Lighten up

As for what was discussed. Sounds like a fizzer.

I don’t reckon a fizzer, not really any different than Cleary and Pascoe, except less buffoonery.

They updated the CoE and gave much firmer dates - Tigers moving out of Concord now, demolish Q1 2020, expect to be back in for 2022 season. Artist’s impression put up on screen, Pascoe confirmed $60M facility with $20M dedicated to Tigers. Pascoe said the original ideas started before his time and has taken up a lot of his 4 years at Tigers, will continue to do so, as even moving to demountables is a huge amount of work. “Not the demountables we remember as kids”.

Tigers are at Bankwest specifically to fulfill the contract we have with Venues NSW (the NSW government) because ANZ is being vacated. We are in or have completed (wasn’t clear) 6 years of 10 total.

Tigers working with all Macarthur Councils - Pascoe rattled them off v quickly, which indicated good knowledge of the groups down there. Hopes to ultimately build an Academy at Campbelltown. Said Tigers invests a lot of resources in the area. Said looking forward to unified Wests Tigers junior geographies that is unfolding.

Tigers are cap compliant at this time and aren’t actually in a “mess”. However cap space comes available 2021, Tigers also looking to make astute signings.

Asked whether we were looking at Frizell - Pascoe says we look at any quality players, every day of the week. There are separate “football committee” and data analysis teams that look into potential signings and roster needs.

Benji and Lawrence likely to tidy up and announce soon.

Grub pencilled in for hooker moving forward because Benji/Brooks is working.

Billy Walters and/or Brittain. Madge said definitely NOT signing a prominent hooker, as we have Grub, the new signings (Walters), didn’t reference Simpkin, but did mention Liddle is still in plans. Also Mbye has hooker capacity.

Tigers just finished training today, players were happy to be there but also happy for their break.

Madge thinks 2019 was not a success, but a platform.

All stuff I’d not heard confirmed before, all worthwhile hearing for me. Puts a bit of clarity outside of the media fuzz we’ve had lately. Kind of like a healthy conversation with your work boss, where your concerns are given due consideration, feedback is received and you realise things aren’t perhaps as bad as you’ve been thinking.

@cochise said in David Nofoaluma re-signs until 2025..:

@The_Doc said in David Nofoaluma re-signs until 2025..:

Has anyone with a bit of inside knowledge either confirmed or denied the 2 mil + figure that was mentioned in the paper. I really am hoping that figure is well wide of the mark it’s far too much money to have tied up to a winger.

Paper figures are usually wide of the mark, main reason is they usually come from managers trying to market themselves to other players.

I don’t know what he is getting paid but trust the people involved enough to be confident they wouldn’t have overpaid.

Also - doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter because nobody can confirm the figure beyond doubt, and doesn’t matter once he’s signed on, he’s getting paid.

@geo said in Player Dramas in the NRL Off-Season (Silly Season):

@jirskyr said in Player Dramas in the NRL Off-Season (Silly Season):

@Geo said in Player Dramas in the NRL Off-Season (Silly Season):

Who gets gaoled for allegedly beating a man

No longer alleged once you are convicted?

This is what the article said tho…quote…He previously spent a year in jail in 2014 for allegedly assaulting a man in Manly.

Yeah I get it, the paper is wrong.

@Geo said in Player Dramas in the NRL Off-Season (Silly Season):

Who gets gaoled for allegedly beating a man

No longer alleged once you are convicted?

@Fade-To-Black said in Player Dramas in the NRL Off-Season (Silly Season):

than grown adults

Many of them are borderline adults.

@TigerWest said in Signing Suggestions & Rumours:

Some of the boys looking fit and happy.

Quality, Twal has a cedar tree on the front of his budgies.

@Tiger_Pete1 said in David Nofoaluma re-signs until 2025..:

@Geo said in David Nofoaluma re-signs until 2025..:

TRY causes stat gets brought up in relation to singling out players…individually…

When you look at it from a team and number of games interestingly can give you a better perspective…

For example Melbourne Storm conceded 53 TRYs in the season of which TRY causes attributed to the back 3 were 34 or 64% of TRIES scored against, Rorters had 55 of which 37 or 67% against WESTS Tigers had 98 of which 49 or 50% attributed to the back 3…

That stat looks at the back 3 as a group, but our right side is the main offender when it comes to try causes. Agree that we are also weak up the middle though!

Parra wising up to why Ferguson and esp Waqa Blake were let go. What a horrendous f/a try ratio for a finals side edge defence.

@balmain-boy said in David Nofoaluma re-signs until 2025..:

’d be gobsmacked if we caved into Nofs demands, especially right after a club interested in him went with someone else.

It is possible that Souths went with Mansour because Nofo turned them down, rather than the other way around.

@Speed2burn said in Signing Suggestions & Rumours:

Nothing a game of golf can’t fix.

You should have seen how badly Lee was hitting them yesterday, must have lost every hole he played with Nofa.

He apologised for his lack of competition with a bottle of Grange over dinner.

Nofo is replaceable. Let’s do the deal or move on.

@GNR4LIFE said in David Nofoaluma:

If teams above us on the ladder are willing to pay him good money, maybe we should take that as a hint.

That they need a player in his position?