As expected, shame AD is out
Sivo gets 10 mins and 1 week from smacking him across the jaw, AD misses 30 mins and a week. Hard to see how this is any more of a crackdown on high shots than anything in the past.
As expected, shame AD is out
Sivo gets 10 mins and 1 week from smacking him across the jaw, AD misses 30 mins and a week. Hard to see how this is any more of a crackdown on high shots than anything in the past.
How can anyone possibly be complaining about increased access to the inner-workings of the club, in any format? The off-season doco we produced a few years back under Cleary was very good, if comparatively short, and this can only be of high interest and information to league fans in general.
I’ve watched the Tottenham series; there are several others on NFL and Premier League teams, all make for compelling viewing when you actually get to see what footballers and club officials really go through day-to-day.
Anyone on here making snide comments - there are several of you - pull your heads in. You ask for more transparency, more innovation, more access; club goes ahead and takes this novel step amongst all league clubs, and all you can come up with is mockery. You must really wonder how much of a compulsive cynic you are.
I wonder if it also keeps News Ltd off our backs for a while, given that Steve Crawley’s equally slimy brother didn’t mind heaping on us last year and I haven’t heard from him in 2021.
What a wretched thread this is, I’ve just read it start to finish with the benefit of hindsight.
So many fans so quick to cast a judgement without the facts, then waste time analysing the “intent” or “hidden meaning” of club press releases.
It starts to border on twitter-type toxicity, frankly. Even the earlier suggestion, along the lines of “what can’t his wife drive herself!?!?” and it gets 4 or 5 thumbs-up. Toxic.
You have to wonder, honestly, people complain so much about the apparent fragility or “lack of mental toughness” of players during football games, but think nothing of heaping crap on those same players week on week, or at a moment’s notice based on something they think they read in the paper. As if the two aren’t related, as if the player won’t do better if there is less external noise.
Esp during COVID year, without precedent. I suppose everyone outside of football is doing just great, no fighting with the wife, no stress or pressure, no unique challenges, no mistakes made or difficulty concentrating on the immediate task.
I will be cancelling my membership rollover tomorrow. Want to see how this plays out
I’m doing the same. I sent an email to WestsTigers AFTER I rolled over my membership stating how disenfranchised I felt as a member. I listed many ways that I felt the club showed no respect for members. I also listed ways to turn members into advocates for the club. I received back an explanation that simply justified everything they did.
Now, yet again, we are in the middle of a crap fight. This garbage never happens at Melbourne or roosters.
I’ll always support the club and I’ll watch every game but I’m showing my disappointment by pulling my membership. Sad thing, the club couldn’t care less.
Doesn’t rolling over the m’ship mean you are renewing?
If so, did you say in your email that you are opting out?
I initially opted in. I’ve since said not to renew my membership
Sad Steve, Think we four may end up doing the same.
I don’t get you guys. Cleary backstabs Tigers and now Matto might be doing the same, and your response is to withdraw membership and penalise the club.
I don’t know what you expect the club to do. Damned in all directions if your key signing suddenly wants more money and kicks stones to get his way.
“This never happens at the Storm or Roosters”. Well, firstly, go support those damned clubs if that is the benchmark. Secondly, no, teams currently in the top 1 or 2 clubs tend to not have too many upset players.
But actually contract nonsense happens at every club, that’s unfortunately part of the deal with sports. Folau backstabbed Melbourne to sign a 4-year deal with Broncos after his debut season. Justin Hodges sought out a mid-year transfer to Broncos from the Roosters in 2004. Ryan Cross strung the Roosters along for a while then defected to rugby. Will Chambers defected to rugby after the 2009 GF. RTS turned down a Roosters deal to take on a lucrative one at Warriors. Rarely do players publicly weasel their way out of deals, but they “backstab” clubs all the time.
“I’ll still support the club and watch every game”, but, you know, I won’t part with any money, to show Tigers how disappointed I am. That’s such a disappointing outlook. I understand if money is a problem, but to quit on the Tigers when they need support the most. I mean, bandwagoning is easy, easy as pie to ride with the successful team. But the club needs strong supporters when times are tough.
Apparently we need tougher management and a tough coach, but supporters can just quit.
Mitch just pass the ball!
That’s actually the issue - all he does is catch and pass. Sometimes he goes looking for an opportunity in loose play and typically chooses to kick. You look at this stats, he has bugger-all line break assists (which are created by passes), but he has try assists, all from kicks.
He just spends all game catching and passing, then stands behind play to reef the footy. He does have a big kick on him but it’s mostly distance not accuracy. I don’t believe he has many forced restarts.
Issue last night is his catch and pass was all one-dimensional sideways. No straightening the attack, no guts to take the ball into the line. That’s where Cleary and Adam Reynolds earn their stripes, previously Cronk as well - really digging right into the line to force the defence to set and commit. This opens space for your outside runners, either holes or space for footwork. Just look how deep Reynolds runs into the defence to then give Cody Walker the time and space to make his pass selection; it only ends up being a fraction of a second, but it’s enough for Walker and hence why Souths LHS attack is so lethal. Reynolds wears a tonne of late shots for his trouble.
Moses, he just catches and passes. He’s too afraid and self-preserving to take it into the line. He wore a couple of early shots last night, including one from Welch and that knock-down collision with Holmes, and was too shaken up to take any more offensive risks.
In the end Tedesco started to get heavily involved at first receiver, calling the shots over Moses. But as per Wests Tigers circa 2017, Tedesco is best getting the ball later in the backline, not first or second receipt. When he starts to overplay his hand, he is less effective and easier for the opposition to predict/defend.
I’ve been saying it for years: Moses has spent his career passing the ball to better footballers. His upside at Eels is he has always had guys like Gutherson, Dylan Brown, M Jennings, Sivo, Radradra to pass to.
Got an essay here
I want to start by saying this thread prompted me to have a think about what’s going on with Tigers fans pre-season 2020. We’ve finished 9th a million times and not played finals most years, but there appears to me to be an unprecedented doom and gloom on here.
Personally, how one might have had optimism in the first year of, say, the Potter or Jason Taylor reigns, but have lost it now, I don’t know. I’m pretty convinced that Madge is a far better calibre of coach than those two and, dare I say it, the best credentialed coach we’ve ever had besides Tim Sheens.
Similarly, @avocadoontoast posted, re hoisting the white flag
“I’d be ok hoisting it now to be honest. I’ve just about had enough.
Why this year? Tigers have struggled for as long as I’ve been alive, but why 2020 is it now too much?
Clearly the team needs to be better and that either comes from improving the current players, or improving the roster. I have a strong impression that this whole Latrell business has really gotten to some people, simply because there was this opportunity of rapidly and handsomely improving the roster in one single shot, and now it appears to have been lost, and it’s crushed a few people.
These people otherwise have no confidence in improving the current players, because that’s been a long-term strategy that hasn’t worked out, and Madge simply managed to repeat the previous middle-ground 9th, same as always. I get that.
So I was thinking about the OP for a while, and the question I ask is: how many clubs sign “elite” players at all? Assuming there’s some significant amount of elite player trade and the Tigers are one of the few teams unable to get involved.
Let’s define “elite” as Origin representative quality or better. Then let’s look at the Origin sides in Game 1 2019:
Kalyn Ponga – signed by Newy the year he debuted Origin
Corey Oates – still at original club
Michael Morgan – still at original club
Will Chambers – still at original club
Dane Gagai – signed by Newy 3 years before playing Origin, signed by Souths 3 years after playing Origin
Cameron Munster – still at original club
Daly Cherry-Evans – still at original club
Jai Arrow – signed by Titans the year he debuted Origin
Ben Hunt – signed by Dragons the year after his Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Josh Papalii – still at original club
Felise Kaufusi – still at original club
Matt Gillett – still at original club
Josh McGuire – signed by Cows 4 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Broncos)
Moses Mbye – signed by Tigers year before Origin debut
Joe Ofahengaue – still at original club
Dylan Napa – signed by Dogs 2 years after Origin debut (debuted with original club Easts)
David Fifita – still at original club
James Tedesco – signed by Easts 2 years after playing Origin (debuted with original club Tigers)
Nick Cotric – still at original club
Latrell Mitchell – still at original club
Josh Morris – signed by Bulldogs same year as Origin debut
Josh Addo-Carr – signed by Storm 1 year before Origin debut
Cody Walker – still at original club
Nathan Cleary – still at original club
David Klemmer – signed w Newy 4 years after Origin debut
Damien Cook – signed by Dogs 4 years before Origin debut, signed by Souths 2 years before debut
Paul Vaughan – signed by Dragons 1 year before Origin debut
Boyd Cordner – still at original club
Tyson Frizell – signed with Dragons 3 years before Origin debut
Jake Trbojevic – still at original club
Jack Wighton – still at original club
Payne Haas – still at original club
Cameron Murray – still at original club
Angus Crichton – signed with Easts year after Origin debut
What is striking in this example is that 19/34 (56%) players are still with their debut club. A further 9 (26%) players signed with their second NRL club before their Origin debut, i.e. were not rep-level players at the time they signed.
That leaves just 6/34 (18%) players who moved to a second club after becoming Origin players.
You look at those in further detail, you have:
Hunt – headhunted for $1M by Dragons, you can fairly say hasn’t worked out
McGuire – signed by Cows after being released by Broncos
Napa – signed by Dogs after being released by Roosters
Tedesco – headhunted for $1M by Roosters
Klemmer – released by Dogs for personal reasons, signed for $850K
Crichton – headhunted by Roosters for close to $1M
So 50% of the players who joined a second club after their Origin debut were released by their incumbent, and the other 50% are all $1M headhunting efforts, mostly by the Roosters.
This data indicates that it’s much more likely to have an Origin player developed from within your club, than sign such a player from another club. I.e. the player either debuted for your side or joined your side before being selected for Origin.
You can argue that some players were signed on the cusp of, or with expectation of, playing Origin, which is fine, but then Moses Mbye and probably Ryan Matterson fit that description, in which case the Tigers DO sign elite-level players.
The other striking feature of these Origin players is that I believe only 3 have had more than 2 clubs – Gagai, Josh Morris and Cook, and Cook was is a technicality because he only played 2 games on debut for the Dragons. Josh Morris has only just completed 1 year with Sharks and only played 2 seasons with Dragons before leaving. Gagai is really the only example in this list of a player headhunted by a 3rd club after being an Origin rep.
Therefore even if you try to sign an Origin-calibre player, the data suggests they are unlikely to move clubs more than once.
Fundamentally, the data suggests that there isn’t a particularly large trade in elite players, and actually most rep-level players are developed from within, or tactically headhunted before they reach Origin level. This would then say that Tigers primary focus should not be signing elite players, but rather developing our own elite players, or astutely buying players who may be elite propositions within a few seasons.
To try and actually sign an existing and established elite player, you typically need $1M or need to be on the lucky end of a secured release, which is the Latrell situation. The secured release is risky, because it says that the incumbent club WANTS to be rid of the player.
And finally, to be headhunting these elite players, the only real clubs to do it successfully in the current crop of rep players are Easts, Souths and, funnily enough, Newcastle.
So is it really the situation that Tigers are consistently unable to secure elite talent, or is it more accurate to say that elite talent infrequently moves around, and when it does, there are a shortlist of clubs that have the success / pulling power to jag these elite players. And then when elite players do move, it will cost you $1M.
Why’s everyone complaining?
They lost friend and cordner this year… they’re under the cap…
Yeah, when you consider those losses you’d like to think that they’re under the cap. And then you look at the rest of their squad being littered with Origin players and internationals and you start to realise there is no way in hell that they’re under the cap. Sure, they lost a few key players but that doesn’t account for the fact that nearly every single player in their starting 13 is a rep level player. Can’t believe there are people actually trying to vouch for the Roosters being under the cap just because they lost a few players.
Exactly. It’s laughable.
Its never about who they lose its about who they have got. They never lose players to stay under the cap they lose players that they no longer want or retire, and replace them with equally good ones or better.
Lose Pearce gain Cronk. Lose RTS gain Tedesco. Lose Friend gain Cheese. It’s like a constant upgrade system but never seems to cost them any extra money.
In a decade or so the Roosters spine will be Jesus, Zeus, Hercules and Superman, and all 4 will claim they are playing for the chance of a premiership and the Roosters professionalism.
A couple of things:
(1) There was no Pooper warning, please remember the regulations.
(2) Looks like 95% of fans are united that we back the coach, and it’s not so common to have unity amongst fans, so at least that’s a good thing.
(3) Players SHOULD be walking on eggshells fearing the outcome of repeat poor performances. The opposite is complacency.
(4) There hasn’t been a single player unduly dropped in 2020. They’ve all had plenty of opportunity and the coach has always stuck strong for a decent period.
(5) The team lacks toughness, that’s our primary issue. There is some talent, there is effort, but we lack toughness in those difficult moments, particularly season 2020 where the rules have changed (literally) and COVID has affected everyone’s preparation. So many teams in 2020 are fragile, but it’s not something we should be excusing.
(6) Where a team lacks toughness, you bring in a tough coach. I don’t care about “losing dressing room” or “lack of delicate man management” if the toughness is missing, first and foremost. Talk to me about improved player management when they are tough first.
(7) Broncos are a prime example of a team full of talent, playing like busteds and lacking the mental toughness to do anything about it. Seibold is a snowflake and the roster has responded by failing to do any hard work. That is not the direction Tigers need to go, and we are on a knife’s edge right now of getting better or far worse.
(8) This is a rare opportunity to do the opposite of Tigers 2012-2019 - back the coach, work out a new single-stadium deal and double-down on culture development, player strength and conditioning, junior investment. Identify the trouble-makers and weak-minded and put them on the sidelines.
Some fans so quick to stick the boot into the club again. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it, stop complaining.
Yes it’s pretty amateur, it’s probably two dudes using a company laptop and some mikes they bought on ebay, but who cares. Have a laugh if you find it amusing, don’t get upset.
Consider it an insight into the shoestring budget this club might be operating under.
Are other clubs doing live Q&As? They didn’t have to do it live, they could have edited it, played safe, posted it up next week. In fact they didn’t have to do it at all.
I’ve read a lot of folks past few weeks demanding the club comment on the off-field stuff happening right now and plans for 2020, so they make this effort, and same or other fans say - pointless.
too much time on your hands.
try going outside.
Don’t be a douchebag, if someone takes the trouble to analyse and discuss something that they are interested in. If you are personally disinterested, move on.
Thing about yesterday’s game, there may have been some unrealistic expectations about what the Tigers are currently capable of. Yes Tigers were pretty ordinary in attack, pretty flat, but you are not going to be on song with a record of 1 W 6L. That’s unrealistic. Obviously the team is struggling for cohesion and fluidity.
All you can ask in those circumstances is that every player turns up and does their best, does their job. And then if you can’t win pretty, win ugly.
For example Tigers had some 57% of possession and there will be those folks who criticise that for only resulting in 16 points. OK sure, but that also misses the fact that by having 57% of possession you restrict the opposition to 43% of possession. In other words, you don’t have to score 30 points if you can keep your opposition to less than 10 points. In fact, if you keep your opponent to < 10 points you win 95% of matches.
What the team did yesterday was similar to the performance against Souths - just kept turning up, kept digging in. The primary difference between the two matches was that Souths have match-turning players that St George do not have. Also, with our defence being solid and ability to get repeat sets, we won the arm-wrestle with Saints over 80 mins, to the point that they were struggling to mount any meaningful fightback even when they were able to get their run of possession. Injuries notwithstanding, even Ennis in commentary, about 10 mins to go, said “Dragons are on the ropes here”.
The main point underlying the whole match was if Tigers play like that every week, we put ourselves in the position to win every week. It’s what Madge keeps saying. Doesn’t mean we are playing great, but it means we graft out matches, develop confidence, iron-out the kinks in our play, work hard for each other, make oppositions nervous to play us, get respect from the fans. What we can’t afford are the Cowboys and Manly games in-between the better efforts.
My top 5 take-aways from live viewing:
Brooks can definitely get the job done with a strong platform. Barely put a foot wrong and had time to develop his plays. I never knew he was a goal kicker, though he has some mad hook (L to R) on his kicks.
Luch was a monster, just unstoppable on left edge, offloading outside and in, cutting back across the play, going for an-old fashioned hitup. Manly’s line speed was average and Leilua looked like a Harlem Globetrotter.
Doueihi should be the first-choice 5/8th. Madden was alright but he hasn’t that next level of threat that Doueihi has. Even to the point where if he just decides to tuck it under his arm for a carry, he’s tall and hard to bring down. HOWEVER some lingering concerns of the way he slots into the RHS defence.
Kelma Tuilagi impressed me greatly, what a unit. Effective in both hit-ups and wide-running. I’d dare say a few of these young blokes like Tuilagi, Simpkins, Stefano are pretty close to (or already have) over-taking the older brigade like Seyfarth, Garner, MCK, Mikaele.
Daine Laurie has obvious football class about him, just in the right place all the time, lovely soft hands. He’s one of those footballers that seems to do the basics without breaking a sweat, so his energy can instead go into above-average football. I also love how comfortable he is at the back handling the football.
Bearing all this in mind, Manly were absolutely horrible and let us get on the front foot all match. Maybe we were just too strong and fast, but we had an enormous platform no matter which forwards rotation we used and it was a carve-up whenever we shifted the football. It may have been a very different story if Manly played all their best players, who may have put more starch into the defence and done more with the early attacking football they had. Credit to the boys however, you can only play what is in front of you.
I hate Crawley but most of what he’s written is correct unfortunately.
Half correct if he’s lucky. Incorrect or pure opinion:
Typical DT crap to troll fans, with broad swipes of semi-fact mixed in with rumours, opinions and un-named quotes.
But it’s an easy target to harangue middle-of-road clubs, you could write the same opinion piece about Sharks, Manly, Titans, Broncos, Souths, Dragons, Warriors etc. and it would all be “somewhat” true, based solely on # wins and nothing else.
But you’ll not find Crawley writing anything against Souths on account of his husband Bennett providing them a shield.
If true, hopefully Madge can admit fault, apologise and promise to be better going forward.
Or, if true, Madge can say “that’s what we need of you mate, you are one of our best players”. Why should the coach be apologising for asking players to extend themselves?
Are Tigers supposed to be a tough team that does whatever it takes to win, or do we go about apologising to players for asking them to exert themselves? Exactly what type of club are we aspiring to be?
There’s this persistent criticism of Madge that he “lost the players” at Souths and needs to learn something or other about his expectations and man-management. Yet, by all accounts, he learned this side of coaching from Craig Bellamy, who is the greatest coach of all time. So then we appear to be asking Madge to not try to emulate Craig Bellamy.
Madge has been removed from 1 team total, so it’s a sample of 1. Maybe he trained Souths too hard or maybe they got lazy.
Personally, Madge has proven he can take an average side and fashion them into contenders. He got a premiership by doing this. I really don’t care which players fall by the wayside if he can achieve this for Wests Tigers. If he can get us 1 premiership and then be let go for being too tough after 5 or 6 seasons, so be it.