Messenger, Brown, Burge, Provan, Meninga announced as Immortals

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Re: Messenger, Brown, Burge, Provan, Meninga announced as Immortals

Post by jirskyr » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 9:56 am

I don't get why people are getting upset about who the panel chose. The NRL didn't choose the Immortals, the panel did - Wally Lewis, Bozo, Joey, Unca Wayne, Gus, Rabbs, Ian Heads and Norm Tasker.

If you have different opinions than that group, fine, but surely you can recognise it's a pretty esteemed group of football minds.

As to admitting 5 total in one night - let's be honest they only admitted 2 post-war "regular" Immortals in Provan and Meninga, and they've done it at that frequency before.

The other 3 played 100 years ago and if you don't recognise them now, when are you going to do it? The Immortals concept was made up by Rugby League Week, they cast their votes at the pub and used the opportunity to sell vintage port - hardly a consistent or robust approach.

If you reckon that Messenger, Brown or Burge are not Immortals of the game, then you haven't truly absorbed any rugby league history IMO.

13 players out of 10,000 is hardly weakening the concept.


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Post by Golden_Boots » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 10:15 am

The silly Immortals concept should have been retired when RLW died. It was only a promotion to sell Port after all. If naming players every few years they just end up naming most of your Hall of Fame anyway eventually. I find it all a yawn.

Anway just looking at the Hall of Fame, I do not see Benny Elias name and there have been over 100 players named. Laughable. Greatest hooker to ever play the game and easily in the top 20 players of all time.

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Post by Fade To Black » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 11:22 am

Russell wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 8:55 am
I will put my two cents worth in because I think there are people pushing their own player/agendas and at least i can weigh the scales back to level.

Those that think Big Norm Provan is not worthy of a place in the "Immortals" probably never saw him play. He was a giant of the game in more ways than one, a great second rower (especially when teamed with Kel O'Shea - what a combination), an inspirational captain and a knowledgeable coach. Saying others should have been there before him is folly - I say he should have been there before others e.g. Gasnier, Langlands and Fulton.

Dally (The Master) Messenger, Frank Burge and Dave Brown get no argument from me.

The story I always loved about Brown was the fact that as a centre, the usual practice was to make a break, run to the full back, pass to the winger and he would score. Not Dave, he would make a break, pass to the winger and let him draw the full back, back up, take the inside pass and score under the posts. That is one of the main reasons he scored so many tries.

There seems to be plenty of animosity against Mal (I dislike him as well) but people saying Gene Miles, Andrew Ettingshausen, Steve Renouf (Paul McGregor - please) as centres should have been inducted before him, seriously have agendas. Disagree he should have been inducted before Peter Sterling, (Kenny not in it imo), Keith Holman, Steve Rogers, Ray Price, Steve Mortimer, Alan Langer etc.

Just an opinion - we all have favorites - but let's keep "Immortal" something that is very special in Rugby League and not hand places out to just good players.
Where has anybody here said Ettingshausen, Miles, Renouf or McGregor should of been inducted before Meninga? Not one person has stated that.
IMO those players mentioned had it all over Meninga in terms of pure ability, it's not even close. So it makes one wonder whether the Immortals concept recognizes playing ability or just popularity/football political correctness? I'd say the latter has over-ridden the former in Mal's case. Sterling would of been a better option for example.

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Post by yeti » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 11:55 am

Meninga is not immortal of the game in my opinion. Hall of Fame certainly - not immortal.
I never saw Provan play, but plenty who did were less than glowing in their opinion of his playing talent. But his leadership was second to none - apparently. So I won't argue against his inclusion.
One omission that is unforgivable - because he will never get another chance now - is Ken Irvine. His try scoring prowess was second to none. Probably the fastest winger to ever play the game. It's an absolute disgrace he will now never have the opportunity to join that exclusive club - a more deserving recipient than some already there.

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Post by jirskyr » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 1:58 pm

Golden_Boots wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 10:15 am
The silly Immortals concept should have been retired when RLW died. It was only a promotion to sell Port after all. If naming players every few years they just end up naming most of your Hall of Fame anyway eventually. I find it all a yawn.

Anway just looking at the Hall of Fame, I do not see Benny Elias name and there have been over 100 players named. Laughable. Greatest hooker to ever play the game and easily in the top 20 players of all time.
Barnsey are you just saying this because you aren't a look in for the Immortals yourself?

Benny Elias great footballer but best hooker of all time? Surely you jest. Noel Kelly, Ian Walsh, Ken Kearney, Cameron Smith all arguably above him. Then you've got Buderus, Steve Walters, Max Krilich, John Lang, Steve Edge all somewhere on par for different reasons. I'd even say in his best years, Robbie Farah was every bit as good as Benny in his best years.


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Post by The Patriot » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 2:24 pm

Meninga might not be in the same class as Lewis and Johns etc but im fairly confident people have his coaching career mixed up with his playing career.


Its an opinion!

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Post by fibrodreaming » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 2:32 pm

Russell wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 8:55 am

Those that think Big Norm Provan is not worthy of a place in the "Immortals" probably never saw him play. He was a giant of the game in more ways than one, a great second rower (especially when teamed with Kel O'Shea - what a combination), an inspirational captain and a knowledgeable coach. Saying others should have been there before him is folly - I say he should have been there before others e.g. Gasnier, Langlands and Fulton.
I saw Provan play (quite a bit) and I don't rate him as one of the best forwards I have seen (not even close). I watched the great Saints teams play Wests many times and I never lost any sleep over what Provan might do to us. It was Raper, Gasnier and Langlands that worried me.

I'm glad the 3 pre-war players were included, particularly Dave Brown. He was a super star of the 1930s and a point scoring freak.

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Post by cktiger » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:10 pm

Would have had Coote before either Provan or Meninga.
Having seen all three (only a kid when Provan was finishing) it would be Coote by a mile.
Fantastic player.

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Post by Go You Good Things » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:33 pm

Mal should have had a line put through his name once he made his feelings on the game publicly clear.
But, the way people think today, you can tell the game to go F itself on TV, then be rewarded with the highest honour the game has just a few short years later.
Or maybe I missed his apology. Either back then when he said it, in the years since, or did he give one in his acceptance speech ?

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Post by Russell » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:40 pm

Fade To Black wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 11:22 am
Russell wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 8:55 am
I will put my two cents worth in because I think there are people pushing their own player/agendas and at least i can weigh the scales back to level.

Those that think Big Norm Provan is not worthy of a place in the "Immortals" probably never saw him play. He was a giant of the game in more ways than one, a great second rower (especially when teamed with Kel O'Shea - what a combination), an inspirational captain and a knowledgeable coach. Saying others should have been there before him is folly - I say he should have been there before others e.g. Gasnier, Langlands and Fulton.

Dally (The Master) Messenger, Frank Burge and Dave Brown get no argument from me.

The story I always loved about Brown was the fact that as a centre, the usual practice was to make a break, run to the full back, pass to the winger and he would score. Not Dave, he would make a break, pass to the winger and let him draw the full back, back up, take the inside pass and score under the posts. That is one of the main reasons he scored so many tries.

There seems to be plenty of animosity against Mal (I dislike him as well) but people saying Gene Miles, Andrew Ettingshausen, Steve Renouf (Paul McGregor - please) as centres should have been inducted before him, seriously have agendas. Disagree he should have been inducted before Peter Sterling, (Kenny not in it imo), Keith Holman, Steve Rogers, Ray Price, Steve Mortimer, Alan Langer etc.

Just an opinion - we all have favorites - but let's keep "Immortal" something that is very special in Rugby League and not hand places out to just good players.
Where has anybody here said Ettingshausen, Miles, Renouf or McGregor should of been inducted before Meninga? Not one person has stated that.
IMO those players mentioned had it all over Meninga in terms of pure ability, it's not even close. So it makes one wonder whether the Immortals concept recognizes playing ability or just popularity/football political correctness? I'd say the latter has over-ridden the former in Mal's case. Sterling would of been a better option for example.
Ok F to B I must have been dreaming when I read in your previous post "strictly on personal playing ability he was certainly no better of a centre than Steve Renouf, Ettingshausen or Paul McGregor from his era alone (Throw Brad Fittler into that mix as well)."

From that sentence I would suggest seeing you are saying he was no better than those guys - they should have been made an "Immortal" before Mal. Did I miss something?

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Post by tsjonathan » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:43 pm

anyone seen Dally Messenger play live?

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Post by Fade To Black » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:46 pm

jirskyr wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 9:56 am
I don't get why people are getting upset about who the panel chose. The NRL didn't choose the Immortals, the panel did - Wally Lewis, Bozo, Joey, Unca Wayne, Gus, Rabbs, Ian Heads and Norm Tasker.

If you have different opinions than that group, fine, but surely you can recognise it's a pretty esteemed group of football minds.

As to admitting 5 total in one night - let's be honest they only admitted 2 post-war "regular" Immortals in Provan and Meninga, and they've done it at that frequency before.

The other 3 played 100 years ago and if you don't recognise them now, when are you going to do it? The Immortals concept was made up by Rugby League Week, they cast their votes at the pub and used the opportunity to sell vintage port - hardly a consistent or robust approach.

If you reckon that Messenger, Brown or Burge are not Immortals of the game, then you haven't truly absorbed any rugby league history IMO.

13 players out of 10,000 is hardly weakening the concept.
The concept will most certainly have it's integrity qustioned at the very least if/when proven cheats of the game such as Smith and Slater are inducted. Not forgetting Inglis who has the cheat/spousal abuse quinella to his name.
Players found guilty of deliberate cheating in regards to contracts and players who have been caught using PED's should instantly have a line drawn through their name when it comes to bring considered for Immortal recognition. Or else it just becomes a laughing stock.

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Post by Fade To Black » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:55 pm

Russell wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:40 pm
Fade To Black wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 11:22 am
Russell wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 8:55 am
I will put my two cents worth in because I think there are people pushing their own player/agendas and at least i can weigh the scales back to level.

Those that think Big Norm Provan is not worthy of a place in the "Immortals" probably never saw him play. He was a giant of the game in more ways than one, a great second rower (especially when teamed with Kel O'Shea - what a combination), an inspirational captain and a knowledgeable coach. Saying others should have been there before him is folly - I say he should have been there before others e.g. Gasnier, Langlands and Fulton.

Dally (The Master) Messenger, Frank Burge and Dave Brown get no argument from me.

The story I always loved about Brown was the fact that as a centre, the usual practice was to make a break, run to the full back, pass to the winger and he would score. Not Dave, he would make a break, pass to the winger and let him draw the full back, back up, take the inside pass and score under the posts. That is one of the main reasons he scored so many tries.

There seems to be plenty of animosity against Mal (I dislike him as well) but people saying Gene Miles, Andrew Ettingshausen, Steve Renouf (Paul McGregor - please) as centres should have been inducted before him, seriously have agendas. Disagree he should have been inducted before Peter Sterling, (Kenny not in it imo), Keith Holman, Steve Rogers, Ray Price, Steve Mortimer, Alan Langer etc.

Just an opinion - we all have favorites - but let's keep "Immortal" something that is very special in Rugby League and not hand places out to just good players.
Where has anybody here said Ettingshausen, Miles, Renouf or McGregor should of been inducted before Meninga? Not one person has stated that.
IMO those players mentioned had it all over Meninga in terms of pure ability, it's not even close. So it makes one wonder whether the Immortals concept recognizes playing ability or just popularity/football political correctness? I'd say the latter has over-ridden the former in Mal's case. Sterling would of been a better option for example.
Ok F to B I must have been dreaming when I read in your previous post "strictly on personal playing ability he was certainly no better of a centre than Steve Renouf, Ettingshausen or Paul McGregor from his era alone (Throw Brad Fittler into that mix as well)."

From that sentence I would suggest seeing you are saying he was no better than those guys - they should have been made an "Immortal" before Mal. Did I miss something?
Yep you did miss something Russ. You are 'seeing' or 'suggesting' something that wasn't said.
As Greenberg is fond of saying: "long story short", the aforementioned players had more playing ability than Mal Meninga, therefore is Meninga worthy of his spot when he wasn't even the most talented bloke amongst several who happened to play in the same position on the field as he did in his playing days? Or was his induction due in big part to his after-career QLD coaching record?
Peter Sterling, an absolute stand-out performer of his day would be more worthy than Meninga of a place amongst the Immortals.

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Post by jirskyr » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 4:01 pm

Fade To Black wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:46 pm
jirskyr wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 9:56 am
I don't get why people are getting upset about who the panel chose. The NRL didn't choose the Immortals, the panel did - Wally Lewis, Bozo, Joey, Unca Wayne, Gus, Rabbs, Ian Heads and Norm Tasker.

If you have different opinions than that group, fine, but surely you can recognise it's a pretty esteemed group of football minds.

As to admitting 5 total in one night - let's be honest they only admitted 2 post-war "regular" Immortals in Provan and Meninga, and they've done it at that frequency before.

The other 3 played 100 years ago and if you don't recognise them now, when are you going to do it? The Immortals concept was made up by Rugby League Week, they cast their votes at the pub and used the opportunity to sell vintage port - hardly a consistent or robust approach.

If you reckon that Messenger, Brown or Burge are not Immortals of the game, then you haven't truly absorbed any rugby league history IMO.

13 players out of 10,000 is hardly weakening the concept.
The concept will most certainly have it's integrity qustioned at the very least if/when proven cheats of the game such as Smith and Slater are inducted. Not forgetting Inglis who has the cheat/spousal abuse quinella to his name.
Players found guilty of deliberate cheating in regards to contracts and players who have been caught using PED's should instantly have a line drawn through their name when it comes to bring considered for Immortal recognition. Or else it just becomes a laughing stock.
Problem is FTB that Smith and Slater weren't personally convicted or sanctioned for anything, if I am not mistaken? It's not Smith or Slater's job to manage the overall salary cap, no matter how complicit they may or may not have been.

But honestly you are talking about salary cap cheats when Changa was accused of child sex offences - not defended or proven, Johnny Raper was infamous for his off-field antics during the Kangaroo tours and Joey Johns admitted to being on pingas for half his career.

Yes overall status and reputation counts, and bad deeds take away from the shine, but ultimately it's most about the footballer.

Personally I think Cam Smith should come into consideration 10-20 years from now; I think Darren Lockyer is also far too recent to be a legitimate consideration. I think they jumped the gun with Joey Johns, but that was RLW not the NRL, and Joey Johns is the greatest footballer I've ever seen since 1986.

I do not think Billy Slater is good enough to be an Immortal - Hall of Famer for sure. They inducted Ricky Stuart and Cliffy Lyons into the HoF last night and I personally believe they are both superior footballers to Billy Slater.

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Post by Russell » Thu 02 Aug, 2018 4:11 pm

Fade To Black wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:55 pm
Russell wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 3:40 pm
Fade To Black wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 11:22 am
Russell wrote:
Thu 02 Aug, 2018 8:55 am
I will put my two cents worth in because I think there are people pushing their own player/agendas and at least i can weigh the scales back to level.

Those that think Big Norm Provan is not worthy of a place in the "Immortals" probably never saw him play. He was a giant of the game in more ways than one, a great second rower (especially when teamed with Kel O'Shea - what a combination), an inspirational captain and a knowledgeable coach. Saying others should have been there before him is folly - I say he should have been there before others e.g. Gasnier, Langlands and Fulton.

Dally (The Master) Messenger, Frank Burge and Dave Brown get no argument from me.

The story I always loved about Brown was the fact that as a centre, the usual practice was to make a break, run to the full back, pass to the winger and he would score. Not Dave, he would make a break, pass to the winger and let him draw the full back, back up, take the inside pass and score under the posts. That is one of the main reasons he scored so many tries.

There seems to be plenty of animosity against Mal (I dislike him as well) but people saying Gene Miles, Andrew Ettingshausen, Steve Renouf (Paul McGregor - please) as centres should have been inducted before him, seriously have agendas. Disagree he should have been inducted before Peter Sterling, (Kenny not in it imo), Keith Holman, Steve Rogers, Ray Price, Steve Mortimer, Alan Langer etc.

Just an opinion - we all have favorites - but let's keep "Immortal" something that is very special in Rugby League and not hand places out to just good players.
Where has anybody here said Ettingshausen, Miles, Renouf or McGregor should of been inducted before Meninga? Not one person has stated that.
IMO those players mentioned had it all over Meninga in terms of pure ability, it's not even close. So it makes one wonder whether the Immortals concept recognizes playing ability or just popularity/football political correctness? I'd say the latter has over-ridden the former in Mal's case. Sterling would of been a better option for example.
Ok F to B I must have been dreaming when I read in your previous post "strictly on personal playing ability he was certainly no better of a centre than Steve Renouf, Ettingshausen or Paul McGregor from his era alone (Throw Brad Fittler into that mix as well)."

From that sentence I would suggest seeing you are saying he was no better than those guys - they should have been made an "Immortal" before Mal. Did I miss something?
Yep you did miss something Russ. You are 'seeing' or 'suggesting' something that wasn't said.
As Greenberg is fond of saying: "long story short", the aforementioned players had more playing ability than Mal Meninga, therefore is Meninga worthy of his spot when he wasn't even the most talented bloke amongst several who happened to play in the same position on the field as he did in his playing days? Or was his induction due in big part to his after-career QLD coaching record?
Peter Sterling, an absolute stand-out performer of his day would be more worthy than Meninga of a place amongst the Immortals.
Just to clarify F to B - I am saying he should not have been inducted as an "Immortal" - I stated previously that he should not have been inducted before Peter Sterling, (Kenny not in it imo), Keith Holman, Steve Rogers, Ray Price, Steve Mortimer, Alan Langer etc. just to name a few.

I do not (my opinion only) think Ettingshausen, Miles, Renouf or McGregor were in the same class as Mal (and I don't like the guy).

I am sure just about everyone has differing opinions.

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