Coach or Cattle

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Geo.
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Re: Coach or Cattle

Post by Geo. » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 12:04 am

You need both...problem solved...
Wests Tigers don't need a Coach.. The playing group has taken over..


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Post by Tigerdon » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 7:13 am

Chicken Faced Killa wrote:
Fri 20 Apr, 2018 10:43 pm
Ivan has been lucky here that he been able to start the roster from a clean slate and pick his own players. The coach and the cattle work hand in hand you need players who buy into what the coach is selling and are onboard with their vision 100% and the coach needs the type of players that suit the style of play they want to play. The coach is the conductor while the cattle are the instruments - they are only as strong as they are compatible.
You're right in that when he came in, in March 2017 most of the big contract were going to be up in 2018. But he still had a lot of work to do. Most wanted him to sign the Big Four up as a matter of priority. At the time, most were saying they could handle loosing Brooks but not the others. Isaac Moses with Moses, Woods and Tedesco were holding The club to ransom. He came in lower Moses offer and gave them a deadline. I would say he party made the slate clean himself.
in Ivan we distrust

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Post by Chicken Faced Killa » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 7:49 am

Tigerdon wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 7:13 am
Chicken Faced Killa wrote:
Fri 20 Apr, 2018 10:43 pm
Ivan has been lucky here that he been able to start the roster from a clean slate and pick his own players. The coach and the cattle work hand in hand you need players who buy into what the coach is selling and are onboard with their vision 100% and the coach needs the type of players that suit the style of play they want to play. The coach is the conductor while the cattle are the instruments - they are only as strong as they are compatible.
You're right in that when he came in, in March 2017 most of the big contract were going to be up in 2018. But he still had a lot of work to do. Most wanted him to sign the Big Four up as a matter of priority. At the time, most were saying they could handle loosing Brooks but not the others. Isaac Moses with Moses, Woods and Tedesco were holding The club to ransom. He came in lower Moses offer and gave them a deadline. I would say he party made the slate clean himself.
Agree - I think it is clear that Ivan views having a balance squad with plenty of depth is integral to winning the comp. He refused to pay overs for the ‘big 4’ and offered what they were worth as part of a squad. He made the hard decisions at the time which enabled him to build the squad he wanted/needed.

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Post by Cultured Bogan » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 8:11 am

Its a symbiotic relationship, one relies upon the other. A coach needs the right cattle to execute his vision, and the cattle needs the right coach to get them playing to the best of their ability.
#penaltyTigers

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The Patriot
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Post by The Patriot » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 8:43 am

Chicken Faced Killa wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 7:49 am

Agree - I think it is clear that Ivan views having a balance squad with plenty of depth is integral to winning the comp.
I would say most coaches want that, only the good ones achieve it.

Thats the thing. . .
Its an opinion!


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Post by Chicken Faced Killa » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 8:52 am

The Patriot wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 8:43 am
Chicken Faced Killa wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 7:49 am

Agree - I think it is clear that Ivan views having a balance squad with plenty of depth is integral to winning the comp.
I would say most coaches want that, only the good ones achieve it.

Thats the thing. . .
The Roosters have put all their money into having a star team with very little depth in their squad. I’d say they have banked on star players being able to produce results and banking on minimal injuries

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Post by MG1962 » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:06 am

I am going to say the coach is the more important. If a coach tries to get a team to play a style the players are not capable of playing. Then we end up in the situation we had with Jason Taylor, where the whole time it seemed Wests had zero edge defense.

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:08 am

It’s both. The cattle is a big factor. Look at Nathan Brown at the Knights.

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Post by GNR4LIFE » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:08 am

It’s both. The cattle is a big factor. Look at Nathan Brown at the Knights.

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Post by cqtiger » Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:17 am

happy tiger wrote:
Fri 20 Apr, 2018 3:44 pm
CQ I think if Bellamy takes over from Bennett in the future at Brisbane he would create a bigger dynasty than he has created in Melbourne

With the prowess he has at picking great footballers , having the backing of the Thoroughbreds , being part of the biggest one club /one city football mad cities and mixed with his obvious coaching talent , Brisbane could become damn near unbeatable
Happy, I’m not talking dynasties or empires all I am saying is it’s my opinion that Jack Gibson is the best coach out of the three of them. He went to a weak Souths and a struggling Cronulla, even Parra were a rabble when he went there. Maybe it was good timing because of who was coming through but Gibson put the finished gloss on Sterling, Kenny, Grothe, Ella et al.

It will never happen but I would like to see Bennett or Bellamy at weaker club to see how they go.

Gibson always left those clubs stronger.

I know that I am somewhat in the minority but I have been around longer than most. Just my view is all.
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Post by Fade To Black » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 10:31 am

cqtiger wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:17 am
happy tiger wrote:
Fri 20 Apr, 2018 3:44 pm
CQ I think if Bellamy takes over from Bennett in the future at Brisbane he would create a bigger dynasty than he has created in Melbourne

With the prowess he has at picking great footballers , having the backing of the Thoroughbreds , being part of the biggest one club /one city football mad cities and mixed with his obvious coaching talent , Brisbane could become damn near unbeatable
Happy, I’m not talking dynasties or empires all I am saying is it’s my opinion that Jack Gibson is the best coach out of the three of them. He went to a weak Souths and a struggling Cronulla, even Parra were a rabble when he went there. Maybe it was good timing because of who was coming through but Gibson put the finished gloss on Sterling, Kenny, Grothe, Ella et al.

It will never happen but I would like to see Bennett or Bellamy at weaker club to see how they go.

Gibson always left those clubs stronger.

I know that I am somewhat in the minority but I have been around longer than most. Just my view is all.
Agree. The ultimate measurement of a great coach is one who has an ordinary roster but still gets great results. The Bellamy and Bennett ego's wouldn't even allow them for a second to contemplate coaching a team of ordinary players......it would erode the myth.

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Post by happy tiger » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 11:39 am

Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 22 Apr, 2018 10:31 am
cqtiger wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:17 am
happy tiger wrote:
Fri 20 Apr, 2018 3:44 pm
CQ I think if Bellamy takes over from Bennett in the future at Brisbane he would create a bigger dynasty than he has created in Melbourne

With the prowess he has at picking great footballers , having the backing of the Thoroughbreds , being part of the biggest one club /one city football mad cities and mixed with his obvious coaching talent , Brisbane could become damn near unbeatable
Happy, I’m not talking dynasties or empires all I am saying is it’s my opinion that Jack Gibson is the best coach out of the three of them. He went to a weak Souths and a struggling Cronulla, even Parra were a rabble when he went there. Maybe it was good timing because of who was coming through but Gibson put the finished gloss on Sterling, Kenny, Grothe, Ella et al.

It will never happen but I would like to see Bennett or Bellamy at weaker club to see how they go.

Gibson always left those clubs stronger.

I know that I am somewhat in the minority but I have been around longer than most. Just my view is all.
Agree. The ultimate measurement of a great coach is one who has an ordinary roster but still gets great results. The Bellamy and Bennett ego's wouldn't even allow them for a second to contemplate coaching a team of ordinary players......it would erode the myth.
You seem to forget that Cam Smith wasn't the Cam Smith he is today when he joined the Storm , Billy Slater wasn't the Billy Slater he is today when he joined the Storm and the same goes for Cronk , Inglis ,Folau ,Bromwich's ,Glasby ,Vunivalu ,JAC , Felise Kaufusi etc

Bellamy built that club from the ground up and has made it virtually bullet proof for 15 seasons

If Bellamy goes to Brisbane the squad will be a mess , many stars about to retire , a forward pack that would of got dismantled by any of the squads they had from the early 1990's onward and a backline that is a wreck when you see who they let go

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Post by happy tiger » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 11:49 am

Anyway I think the coach might have to brand some of the cattle this week and sharpen the horns of a few others

Some may need to go to the meatworks

Like that one CQ

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Post by colmcd » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 12:02 pm

I think the Coach and Cattle question can be answered very differently depending on the team. There are Cattle and there are premium Bulls and meat on legs.

If you look at us at the moment.

Defense(except last game): we were winning on Defense. Defense is a team effort. You need a GREAT coach and solid players. As demonstrated in the Newcastle game, Defense falls apart if you have weak Cattle. Your defense is only as good as your weakest player and your coach is there to get your team strong. The Storm nail it with defense as they try to win on every aspect of their game. "winning the defense" is crucial as your attack then starts on their 20m not your one.

Attack: this can be Cattle/really good players alone. I am thinking GI or Hayne (2009). Looking at Easts it seems like Jason Taylor coached Pearce and Co into a good attack plan more then Robinson (and probably did nothing else).

Culture: this is the cattle and Coach. I have seen Ricky Stewart coach a team to the finals and coach that same team to the spoon. Brad Arthur has built it in Parramatta, an environment so chaotic that they should have received 5 wooden spoons... and now, something has gone on with the cattle that is ruining it (be that MM, Hayne, Contracts, Wehbe, Who knows). Culture means your meat loafs start playing like prize bulls, that attitude boost can make the worst teams beat the best (I saw Easts thrash Melbourne with Fittlers first game at the helm. You could not recognize the teams).

Any coach above 50% mean is worth their salt. Getting the right playing group and wright attitudes is a difficult mix.

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Post by Eddie » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 12:16 pm

Were doing so well with the squad we have.

We still need an injection of class or two. As I feel we will have tough periods in the season playing with such high energy.

Ivan would know this and would hopefully pick the right couple of targets for 2019 and 2020.

I dont believe we can be a finals contender until this happens. However am pleasantly surprised how well we are playing this year and enjoying having a deeper squad.

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Post by Fade To Black » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 12:43 pm

happy tiger wrote:
Sun 22 Apr, 2018 11:39 am
Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 22 Apr, 2018 10:31 am
cqtiger wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:17 am
happy tiger wrote:
Fri 20 Apr, 2018 3:44 pm
CQ I think if Bellamy takes over from Bennett in the future at Brisbane he would create a bigger dynasty than he has created in Melbourne

With the prowess he has at picking great footballers , having the backing of the Thoroughbreds , being part of the biggest one club /one city football mad cities and mixed with his obvious coaching talent , Brisbane could become damn near unbeatable
Happy, I’m not talking dynasties or empires all I am saying is it’s my opinion that Jack Gibson is the best coach out of the three of them. He went to a weak Souths and a struggling Cronulla, even Parra were a rabble when he went there. Maybe it was good timing because of who was coming through but Gibson put the finished gloss on Sterling, Kenny, Grothe, Ella et al.

It will never happen but I would like to see Bennett or Bellamy at weaker club to see how they go.

Gibson always left those clubs stronger.

I know that I am somewhat in the minority but I have been around longer than most. Just my view is all.
Agree. The ultimate measurement of a great coach is one who has an ordinary roster but still gets great results. The Bellamy and Bennett ego's wouldn't even allow them for a second to contemplate coaching a team of ordinary players......it would erode the myth.
You seem to forget that Cam Smith wasn't the Cam Smith he is today when he joined the Storm , Billy Slater wasn't the Billy Slater he is today when he joined the Storm and the same goes for Cronk , Inglis ,Folau ,Bromwich's ,Glasby ,Vunivalu ,JAC , Felise Kaufusi etc

Bellamy built that club from the ground up and has made it virtually bullet proof for 15 seasons

If Bellamy goes to Brisbane the squad will be a mess , many stars about to retire , a forward pack that would of got dismantled by any of the squads they had from the early 1990's onward and a backline that is a wreck when you see who they let go
Some crazy "logic" there I'll say that much.
"Bellamy built the club from the ground up". Ah, they had already won a premiership a few seasons before he even coached there. Anderson and Ribot can stake claim to building that club moreso than Bellamy.
Bellamy oversaw the cheating that allowed that club to have some of those players you mentioned even on the same roster at the same time: Smith, Slater, Inglis and Folau. Is that worthy of credit to Bellamy?
JAC is still the exact same player he was at WT: blistering pace and hopeless in defence, he scored length of the field tries for WT as well. No credit to Bellamy there IMO.
"Smith and Slater weren't the players they are now back when they started at Storm". Well, no players are the players they are now when they first started at any club are they?
Was JT JT before he went to the Cowboys or was he a complete ploddering dud at Canterbury and the Cowboys coaching staff turned him into the best player of all time? Graham Murray and Neil Henry aren't rated as extraordinary coaches by anyone. Good players are going to be good players regardless of who their coach is.
Who was King Wally's coach at Souths or wherever he played at in Brisbane? Is he considered as a fantastic coach? Don't even know who he was but by your reasoning he should be credited totally for Wally's stellar career.

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Post by happy tiger » Sun 22 Apr, 2018 11:39 pm

Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 22 Apr, 2018 12:43 pm
happy tiger wrote:
Sun 22 Apr, 2018 11:39 am
Fade To Black wrote:
Sun 22 Apr, 2018 10:31 am
cqtiger wrote:
Sat 21 Apr, 2018 11:17 am


Happy, I’m not talking dynasties or empires all I am saying is it’s my opinion that Jack Gibson is the best coach out of the three of them. He went to a weak Souths and a struggling Cronulla, even Parra were a rabble when he went there. Maybe it was good timing because of who was coming through but Gibson put the finished gloss on Sterling, Kenny, Grothe, Ella et al.

It will never happen but I would like to see Bennett or Bellamy at weaker club to see how they go.

Gibson always left those clubs stronger.

I know that I am somewhat in the minority but I have been around longer than most. Just my view is all.
Agree. The ultimate measurement of a great coach is one who has an ordinary roster but still gets great results. The Bellamy and Bennett ego's wouldn't even allow them for a second to contemplate coaching a team of ordinary players......it would erode the myth.
You seem to forget that Cam Smith wasn't the Cam Smith he is today when he joined the Storm , Billy Slater wasn't the Billy Slater he is today when he joined the Storm and the same goes for Cronk , Inglis ,Folau ,Bromwich's ,Glasby ,Vunivalu ,JAC , Felise Kaufusi etc

Bellamy built that club from the ground up and has made it virtually bullet proof for 15 seasons

If Bellamy goes to Brisbane the squad will be a mess , many stars about to retire , a forward pack that would of got dismantled by any of the squads they had from the early 1990's onward and a backline that is a wreck when you see who they let go
Some crazy "logic" there I'll say that much.
"Bellamy built the club from the ground up". Ah, they had already won a premiership a few seasons before he even coached there. Anderson and Ribot can stake claim to building that club moreso than Bellamy.
Bellamy oversaw the cheating that allowed that club to have some of those players you mentioned even on the same roster at the same time: Smith, Slater, Inglis and Folau. Is that worthy of credit to Bellamy?
JAC is still the exact same player he was at WT: blistering pace and hopeless in defence, he scored length of the field tries for WT as well. No credit to Bellamy there IMO.
"Smith and Slater weren't the players they are now back when they started at Storm". Well, no players are the players they are now when they first started at any club are they?
Was JT JT before he went to the Cowboys or was he a complete ploddering dud at Canterbury and the Cowboys coaching staff turned him into the best player of all time? Graham Murray and Neil Henry aren't rated as extraordinary coaches by anyone. Good players are going to be good players regardless of who their coach is.
Who was King Wally's coach at Souths or wherever he played at in Brisbane? Is he considered as a fantastic coach? Don't even know who he was but by your reasoning he should be credited totally for Wally's stellar career.
Wally was coached in Union at Brisbane State High School by the legendary Cyril Connell , actually Cyril coached my old man 10 years earlier at Brisbane State High School

Seeing Cyril Connell actually came probably one of the greatest ever talent spotters for the Broncos and he came from a Union background is interesting

The King was coached by his old man Jim for a while in junior league

The Rat Ross Strudwick at Fortitude Valleys (Strudwick played for Saint George and is probably better known for his Strudwick Sports stores up here )

At Wynnum he was coached by Des Morris ex SOO player and Rod Morris's younger brother (Rod played for Balmain in the 70"s) Des actually drove a truck for Biddles Transport which was about 100 metres from my home and we were good friends with the Biddles (how we got tickets to the 1st ever SOO game )

Wally then coached himself as Captain Coach at Wynnum and then joined the Broncos

Back on point they had to turn Cronk into a half back , Billy looked more likely to become a jockey , and Smith was thought to be a good junior , but nothing special

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