Jackson Topine takes Bulldogs to NSW Supreme Court

[BAGNF05]

The point wasn't gitmo. The point was where is the line? And had he agreed to that?

The "wrestle" I.e. physical part here isn't the issue. I think that's where you're stuck. It's ths mental. It was ALL his peers were made to inflict it and the trainer told them not to help. That's ostracising and just cruel. I have no idea how that would result in the desired outcome..

I just find it hard to believe his teammates would be complicit in that, having been in that culture myself my whole life. I wasn’t there, it’s my opinion.

 

[supercoach]

This sort thing was the norm years back, but over the years we have found public humiliation is a terrible tool to use and can have lasting and even permanent mental damage. It might work in the SAS where there are no rules but not in a NRL club

 

[tiger_one]

I just find it hard to believe his teammates would be complicit in that, having been in that culture myself my whole life. I wasn’t there, it’s my opinion.

I'm sure that way back after it first happened, I read that the players themselves were upset at being forced to do it.

 

[BAGNF05]

This sort thing was the norm years back, but over the years we have found public humiliation is a terrible tool to use and can have lasting and even permanent mental damage. It might work in the SAS where there are no rules but not in a NRL club

I’ve seen similar drills and the aim has never been to humiliate anyone, quite the opposite in fact. Teammates are normally offering encouragement and showing support to the player for their show of resilience.

 

[BAGNF05]

I'm sure that way back after it first happened, I read that the players themselves were upset at being forced to do it.

I’ll say it again, be careful what you read.

 

[Telltails]

I'm sure that way back after it first happened, I read that the players themselves were upset at being forced to do it.

There was a suggestion RFM was of them and has been since moved on - may have even been club captain at the time.

 

[hank37w]

Seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this case and I have to say that I was very surprised by the reactions on NRL360 last night.

Some reports saying that Jackson Topine was late for the strapping session prior to training beginning but he was still available for the start of the training session, other reports such as on NRL360 just suggesting that he was late for training, no one as far as I know has actually mentioned how late he was, although I have to admit that I have not been following it all that closely.

Kent and Anasta going pretty hard supporting Gus, Ciraldo and Touma the Canterbury trainer, their biggest concern was how this could open up a whole can of worms and making suggestions that Topine was a fringe player and basically making out that he was a nobody.

Kent basically went on to say it was no big deal, "the kid spun the wheel and it came up wrestle," and that he only had to wrestle 30 - 35 of his team mates for 30 seconds each.

No big deal, it was all done and over in 15 minutes and everything must have been okay because Jackson Topine turned back up at training the next day so there was no damage done.

I would have thought that in this day and age that Kent and Anasta would have been all over The Dogs for what they did to the kid, but the real surprise was when Back Door Benny and Geoff Toovey came on and these old school dinosaurs were up in arms over what the dogs did to the kid and it appeared to be very much to the displeasure of Kent.

I would have thought that the reactions may have been the other way around but I guess that to an extent Geoff Toovey may have been taking the safer course after being closely involved with what happened to Keith Titmuss at Manly.

 

[BAGNF05]

Seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this case and I have to say that I was very surprised by the reactions on NRL360 last night.

Some reports saying that Jackson Topine was late for the strapping session prior to training beginning but he was still available for the start of the training session, other reports such as on NRL360 just suggesting that he was late for training, no one as far as I know has actually mentioned how late he was, although I have to admit that I have not been following it all that closely.

Kent and Anasta going pretty hard supporting Gus, Ciraldo and Touma the Canterbury trainer, their biggest concern was how this could open up a whole can of worms and making suggestions that Topine was a fringe player and basically making out that he was a nobody.

Kent basically went on to say it was no big deal, "the kid spun the wheel and it came up wrestle," and that he only had to wrestle 30 - 35 of his team mates for 30 seconds each.

No big deal, it was all done and over in 15 minutes and everything must have been okay because Jackson Topine turned back up at training the next day so there was no damage done.

I would have thought that in this day and age that Kent and Anasta would have been all over The Dogs for what they did to the kid, but the real surprise was when Back Door Benny and Geoff Toovey came on and these old school dinosaurs were up in arms over what the dogs did to the kid and it appeared to be very much to the displeasure of Kent.

I would have thought that the reactions may have been the other way around but I guess that to an extent Geoff Toovey may have been taking the safer course after being closely involved with what happened to Keith Titmuss at Manly.

Benny flip flopped three times in a sentence. Had me thinking he won’t be invited back on, utter gibber.

 

[BZN]

I'm sure that way back after it first happened, I read that the players themselves were upset at being forced to do it.

Agree 100 % tiger_one.
The article I read on here said the 35 players he was forced to wrestle were instructed to show him no mercy in any way.
This is a case of modern day physical and mental torture dished out for a very minor offence.
I cannot believe there are still idiots out there who are prepared to dish out this sort of DISRESPECT.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Topine was a fairly reasonable player, a typical build for a Bulldogs forward.

 

[Lestronge]

As I said - at least this will be left to a Civil court to decide rather than the Coroner.

This is rightfully a legal minefield - and will set a precedent!

As a people manager in any industry - there are lines you don't cross and what has been alleged is beyond an acceptable line in this century.

NRL are working of implementing recommendations from the Titmuss inquest across all clubs - but that will mean better medical oversight of trainers will be mandatory and each club will need to adhere to the protocols.

Touma won three premierships as trainer - give me a break!

That was the stacked Roosters sides - and trainers never deliver Premierships!

Once again …… what are you talking about ! All premierships are won on the training paddock ! We had Ronnie Palmer a few years ago , and we looked a step behind ,Then we got Gray from the sharks and - whole bunch of lower limb injuries and hamstrings.
You said to me I don’t know what I’m talking about and need to educate myself but mate when you make comments like that , that read as extremely self serving , it sure does make me question your knowledge on what it takes to succeed at these types of elite programs .

 

[Lestronge]

Couldn't disagree more.

So many haven't got the aptitude or fortitude to.be professional anything

Some one else's fault.

doesn't deserve anything

People also compare to the reduction of training days in NFL and a limit of how much training you can do . But you know why ? Because those training sessions are literally , explosive repetition after repetition , car crash , sprints , explosive repetition… over and over . In some ways because the nrl requires way more endurance the players get a reprieve from that by doing aerobic training . And you want to talk about lack of mercy?
There is no where to hide in NFL / college football. Which is the only real comparable sport . And no Union isn’t comparable re. The amount of force and collisions that are put on the body .

 

[Lestronge]

I just find it hard to believe his teammates would be complicit in that, having been in that culture myself my whole life. I wasn’t there, it’s my opinion.

I agree with hammertime on this point mate . If it really was such a shock , which he’s saying it is because it caused his career to finish, then there has to have been a breakdown somewhere . People can be cold and say ,”he was entitled and soft” , which I’m Actually NOT saying Snidest , or , the other extreme is “this is barbaric” which is also ridiculous because , every other team is doing the same shit .
The issue is simply was the “reward” for not meeting standards communicated and agreed upon prior to this .
And the other thing is the coldness and callousness around helping him up . To me that reads like they were trying to teach him a lesson / send him a message . Which says maybe there was a long history prior to this , or some communication was had about the player needing to be hardened up . I have no idea , but that’s where the real issue lies . Because if he really is this messed up over it , and he had mental health issues going in, why on earth did the training team think this strategy would work .

 

[BAGNF05]

I agree with hammertime on this point mate . If it really was such a shock , which he’s saying it is because it caused his career to finish, then there has to have been a breakdown somewhere . People can be cold and say ,”he was entitled and soft” , which I’m Actually NOT saying Snidest , or , the other extreme is “this is barbaric” which is also ridiculous because , every other team is doing the same shit .
The issue is simply was the “reward” for not meeting standards communicated and agreed upon prior to this .
And the other thing is the coldness and callousness around helping him up . To me that reads like they were trying to teach him a lesson / send him a message . Which says maybe there was a long history prior to this , or some communication was had about the player needing to be hardened up . I have no idea , but that’s where the real issue lies . Because if he really is this messed up over it , and he had mental health issues going in, why on earth did the training team think this strategy would work .

I’m not commenting on the minutia because it’s hearsay. I’m giving an opinion to counter some pretty outlandish hyperbole and sensationalism I’ve read on here. The trainer in question deserves his day in court too.

 

[Snidest 0]

Once again …… what are you talking about ! All premierships are won on the training paddock ! We had Ronnie Palmer a few years ago , and we looked a step behind ,Then we got Gray from the sharks and - whole bunch of lower limb injuries and hamstrings.
You said to me I don’t know what I’m talking about and need to educate myself but mate when you make comments like that , that read as extremely self serving , it sure does make me question your knowledge on what it takes to succeed at these types of elite programs .

Yeah - he played a massive role...

This is the entire coaching staff of the Roosters when Touma was there... he is a tiny cog in a large machine!

Don Singe was also a highly experienced & respected trainer at Manly... but he oversaw the Titmuss fiasco...

Get over yourself!

 

[happy_tiger]

The reason he was wrestling was because that was what the actual training they were doing .....if it had even weights or sprints he would have been doing that

 

[Snidest 0]

I’m not commenting on the minutia because it’s hearsay. I’m giving an opinion to counter some pretty outlandish hyperbole and sensationalism I’ve read on here. The trainer in question deserves his day in court too.

He sure does!!


A former Manly high-performance manager who rushed to Keith Titmuss’ aid inside the club’s dojo broke down in tears during a coronial inquest, saying he was “devastated” to learn the rising rugby league star likely died of heatstroke.

Don Singe, the club’s head of performance when Titmuss suffered a seizure and later died on the first day of the Sea Eagles’ pre-season training in November 2020, pleaded on Wednesday for a formal process to be ratified for players returning to NRL training.

On the third day of the inquest before deputy state coroner Derek Lee, the court heard Titmuss, 20, was the least aerobic player in Manly’s NRL squad and possessed a body mass index of more than 35.
Singe faced intense questioning from counsel assisting Adam Casselden, SC, about whether the session was appropriate for Titmuss, who could have been exposed to a higher risk of heatstroke.

Singe became emotional when asked to recount the player’s seizure at the Narrabeen dojo, a small hall used for indoor conditioning and wrestling activities. Titmuss and his teammates had moved to the facility after a 90-minute field session.

“Only learning about the heatstroke and temperature in the last two weeks, that’s devastating,” a tearful Singe said. “To think there’s any possibility [something different could have been done].

“At the end of the day, we didn’t know. He was asymptomatic. He didn’t f---ing stumble, he didn’t do anything. I’m not defending myself. I wished to god he would have stumbled or shown me something, then it would have been different.
“I feel like I’m under siege. If it makes it better and gives peace to the family, so [Titmuss’] mum and dad can start the mourning process and they can grieve for their son, I’ll be as useful as I can in this process.


“Maybe we need to address the signs and symptoms of it better. I’m sorry.”
Singe told the court how Titmuss had shown no signs of being distressed throughout the session before complaining of cramping as teammates stretched inside the dojo.
He requested two players help him to his feet, according to Singe, before the head of performance helped him move back towards a wall. Singe said he then realised something was seriously wrong.
Titmuss started fitting, with the court hearing earlier in the inquest the budding NRL player started involuntarily howling and moving around the floor of the dojo.
He died in Royal North Shore Hospital after suffering a cardiac arrest, with an attending paramedic saying his body temperature of 41.9 degrees was the “highest they’d ever seen”.

The inquest heard Titmuss recorded the lowest score of any player in the club’s yo-yo test – a running test between markers 20 metres apart to gauge aerobic capacity – in the screening days before resuming formal training, and had put on more than four kilograms in the two months of the off-season. He weighed 116.8 kilograms when tested by Manly performance staff.

GPS data from Manly’s first pre-season training session found Titmuss covered 6.7 kilometres during a 90-minute field session before players jogged to the nearby dojo for further conditioning.

Asked if it was a demanding training session for the first day back, Singe said: “For the 36 players that completed the session, the numbers may look demanding but looking at the breakdown of metres per minute, max speed and heart rates … it’s a solid session, but it’s not something that would be unusual in the NRL.
“We talk about Keith like he wasn’t supposed to be there, but he was supposed to be there. He was a good athlete. He was strong and powerful.”

Manly’s former assistant coach Michael Monaghan told the court he’d had a meeting with Titmuss before his off-season break at the end of the 2020 season and told him he was “in the best shape he’d been in”.
“[But] I just noticed, very similar to the two previous pre-seasons, he’d come back and was behind straight off the bat, significantly compared to everyone else,” Monaghan said of the squad’s screening tests. “That was the first thing I noticed.”

The inquest heard from the club’s longtime head trainer Alex Ross, who acknowledged he had a gear van with ice in it only metres from the dojo when the alarm was raised for Titmuss.
Ross ran to a nearby doctor clinic on the Sydney Academy of Sport campus for help.
He said the only significant thing he noticed about Titmuss during the field session was when he shouted “what?” as Manly completed a 100-pass drill.

Players are asked to complete 100 consecutive passes without mistake under fatigue, and Ross recalls Titmuss making the remark when told the count had to be restarted due to an error.

Des Hasler, who was head coach of the club at the time, will front the inquest on Friday.

The inquest is examining the appropriateness of the response of Manly’s players and support staff to Titmuss’ medical emergency, and whether the training was too intense for his level of fitness.

The inquest is not a criminal trial and no Manly coaches or staff members have been accused of criminal conduct.

The inquest continues.

 

[BAGNF05]

He sure does!!

View attachment 11686
A former Manly high-performance manager who rushed to Keith Titmuss’ aid inside the club’s dojo broke down in tears during a coronial inquest, saying he was “devastated” to learn the rising rugby league star likely died of heatstroke.

Don Singe, the club’s head of performance when Titmuss suffered a seizure and later died on the first day of the Sea Eagles’ pre-season training in November 2020, pleaded on Wednesday for a formal process to be ratified for players returning to NRL training.

On the third day of the inquest before deputy state coroner Derek Lee, the court heard Titmuss, 20, was the least aerobic player in Manly’s NRL squad and possessed a body mass index of more than 35.
Singe faced intense questioning from counsel assisting Adam Casselden, SC, about whether the session was appropriate for Titmuss, who could have been exposed to a higher risk of heatstroke.

Singe became emotional when asked to recount the player’s seizure at the Narrabeen dojo, a small hall used for indoor conditioning and wrestling activities. Titmuss and his teammates had moved to the facility after a 90-minute field session.

“Only learning about the heatstroke and temperature in the last two weeks, that’s devastating,” a tearful Singe said. “To think there’s any possibility [something different could have been done].

“At the end of the day, we didn’t know. He was asymptomatic. He didn’t f---ing stumble, he didn’t do anything. I’m not defending myself. I wished to god he would have stumbled or shown me something, then it would have been different.
“I feel like I’m under siege. If it makes it better and gives peace to the family, so [Titmuss’] mum and dad can start the mourning process and they can grieve for their son, I’ll be as useful as I can in this process.


“Maybe we need to address the signs and symptoms of it better. I’m sorry.”
Singe told the court how Titmuss had shown no signs of being distressed throughout the session before complaining of cramping as teammates stretched inside the dojo.
He requested two players help him to his feet, according to Singe, before the head of performance helped him move back towards a wall. Singe said he then realised something was seriously wrong.
Titmuss started fitting, with the court hearing earlier in the inquest the budding NRL player started involuntarily howling and moving around the floor of the dojo.
He died in Royal North Shore Hospital after suffering a cardiac arrest, with an attending paramedic saying his body temperature of 41.9 degrees was the “highest they’d ever seen”.

The inquest heard Titmuss recorded the lowest score of any player in the club’s yo-yo test – a running test between markers 20 metres apart to gauge aerobic capacity – in the screening days before resuming formal training, and had put on more than four kilograms in the two months of the off-season. He weighed 116.8 kilograms when tested by Manly performance staff.

GPS data from Manly’s first pre-season training session found Titmuss covered 6.7 kilometres during a 90-minute field session before players jogged to the nearby dojo for further conditioning.

Asked if it was a demanding training session for the first day back, Singe said: “For the 36 players that completed the session, the numbers may look demanding but looking at the breakdown of metres per minute, max speed and heart rates … it’s a solid session, but it’s not something that would be unusual in the NRL.
“We talk about Keith like he wasn’t supposed to be there, but he was supposed to be there. He was a good athlete. He was strong and powerful.”

Manly’s former assistant coach Michael Monaghan told the court he’d had a meeting with Titmuss before his off-season break at the end of the 2020 season and told him he was “in the best shape he’d been in”.
“[But] I just noticed, very similar to the two previous pre-seasons, he’d come back and was behind straight off the bat, significantly compared to everyone else,” Monaghan said of the squad’s screening tests. “That was the first thing I noticed.”

The inquest heard from the club’s longtime head trainer Alex Ross, who acknowledged he had a gear van with ice in it only metres from the dojo when the alarm was raised for Titmuss.
Ross ran to a nearby doctor clinic on the Sydney Academy of Sport campus for help.
He said the only significant thing he noticed about Titmuss during the field session was when he shouted “what?” as Manly completed a 100-pass drill.

Players are asked to complete 100 consecutive passes without mistake under fatigue, and Ross recalls Titmuss making the remark when told the count had to be restarted due to an error.

Des Hasler, who was head coach of the club at the time, will front the inquest on Friday.

The inquest is examining the appropriateness of the response of Manly’s players and support staff to Titmuss’ medical emergency, and whether the training was too intense for his level of fitness.

The inquest is not a criminal trial and no Manly coaches or staff members have been accused of criminal conduct.

The inquest continues.

Incredibly tragic 😢

 

[Suzie-Q]

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[cktiger]

There was a suggestion RFM was of them and has been since moved on - may have even been club captain at the time.

I heard this at the time.
Yes, he was club captain.
Didn’t support what happened and then was ostracised himself.
Will be very interesting if it goes to court… although I’m thinking an out of court payment and gag order is on the cards.